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Where did Microsoft go wrong?

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  Where did Microsoft go wrong? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-05 20:57 +0100
    Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-09-05 20:40 +0000
    Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-09-05 22:44 +0100
      Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-09-08 21:10 +0000
    Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-09-05 22:50 +0000
      Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-05 19:35 -0400
        Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-09-06 07:12 +0100
          Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2021-07-02 09:36 -0700
            Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-07-02 19:05 +0100
              Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-07-02 21:44 +0100
                Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-07-02 22:16 +0100
                  Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2021-07-03 00:57 +0000
                  Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2021-07-02 23:05 -0500
                Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Fred Weigel <fridtjof.martin.weigel@gmail.com> - 2021-07-02 16:03 -0700
                Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-07-03 17:35 +0000
                  Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-07-04 08:35 +0100
            Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-07-02 11:28 -0700
              Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-07-02 23:28 +0000
                Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-07-03 10:21 +0100
                  Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-07-03 22:16 +0000
                  Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-07-03 21:07 -0400
                  Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-07-03 18:40 -0700
                  Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2021-07-06 04:36 -0700
                    Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2021-07-06 17:42 +0100
                    Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-07-06 16:52 +0000
              Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2021-07-06 04:34 -0700
      Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-05 17:59 -0700
        Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-05 22:07 -0400
          Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-06 06:30 -0700
            Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-06 10:02 -0400
            Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Bud Spencer <bud@campo.verano.it> - 2020-09-06 17:47 +0300
        Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-09-06 08:12 +0000
          Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Johnatan Duck <pato@thunder.local> - 2020-09-11 08:22 +0000
        Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-06 16:23 +0100
      Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-06 16:19 +0100
        Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-09-06 22:51 +0000
    Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2020-09-05 17:01 -0600
      Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-09-06 08:23 +0000
        Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-09-06 20:03 +0000
          Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2020-09-06 17:26 -0600
      Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-06 16:20 +0100
        Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-06 11:14 -0700
          Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2020-09-07 05:27 +0000
            Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-09-07 08:32 +0000
            Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-07 11:01 +0100
            Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-07 10:28 -0700
            Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-07 13:50 -0400
        Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-09-06 22:48 +0000
          Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-07 10:58 +0100
    Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-07 17:47 +0100
      Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-09-07 18:02 +0100
        Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-09-07 20:57 +0000
      Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-07 13:44 -0400
        Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-08 00:05 +0100
          Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-07 19:40 -0400
            Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-08 01:33 +0100
              Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-07 22:39 -0400
                Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-09-08 11:01 +0000
                Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-08 14:42 +0100
                  Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-08 10:28 -0400
                    Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-08 08:44 -0700
                    Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-08 16:48 +0100
                      Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-08 12:12 -0400
                        Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-08 17:33 +0100
                          Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-08 13:47 -0400
                            Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-08 19:49 +0100
                              Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-08 15:35 -0400
                    Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2020-09-08 20:01 -0300
                      Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-08 20:16 -0400
                        Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2020-09-09 03:50 -0300
                          Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-09-09 17:20 +0000
                            Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2020-09-10 03:29 -0300
              Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2020-09-08 09:20 -0600
                Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-09-08 15:39 +0000
                  Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2020-09-08 12:01 -0600
                  Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> - 2020-09-09 17:59 +0300
                Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-08 11:54 -0400
                  Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-08 17:18 +0100
                    Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-08 19:44 +0100
            Re: ZFS, Where did Microsoft go wrong? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-09-08 01:27 +0000
              Re: ZFS, Where did Microsoft go wrong? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-07 22:54 -0400
                Re: ZFS, Where did Microsoft go wrong? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-08 08:44 -0700
                  Re: ZFS, Where did Microsoft go wrong? Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-09-08 16:01 +0000
                    Re: ZFS, Where did Microsoft go wrong? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-08 09:33 -0700
              Re: ZFS, Where did Microsoft go wrong? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-08 08:44 -0700
                Re: ZFS, Where did Microsoft go wrong? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-08 17:00 +0100
                  Re: ZFS, Where did Microsoft go wrong? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-08 09:33 -0700
                    Re: ZFS, -> The Great Rootshow Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-08 13:41 -0400
                      Re: ZFS, -> The Great Rootshow Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-08 19:37 +0100
                        Re: ZFS, -> The Great Rootshow Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-08 15:31 -0400
                          Re: ZFS, -> The Great Rootshow Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-08 22:54 +0100
                            Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-08 18:09 -0400
                              Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-08 23:18 +0100
                                Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-08 20:10 -0400
                                  Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-09-09 09:41 +0000
                                    Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-09 08:34 -0400
                                      Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-09-09 12:43 +0000
                                  Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-09 13:29 +0100
                                    Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-09 08:44 -0400
                                Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-09-09 18:31 +0000
                                  Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-09 15:49 -0400
                                    Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-09-09 20:41 +0000
                                      Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-09 17:32 -0400
                                        Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2020-09-10 05:17 +0000
                                          Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-10 12:15 +0100
                                          Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-09-10 11:51 +0000
                                            Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-10 14:40 +0100
                                              Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-10 17:39 +0100
                                                Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-10 18:03 +0100
                                      Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-09-10 15:45 +0000
                                        Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-10 12:02 -0400
                                          Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-10 17:35 +0100
                                  Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-09-09 21:05 +0100
                                  Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-09 16:55 -0700
                                    Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-09-10 15:48 +0000
            Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-09-08 15:38 +0000
    Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2020-09-08 02:29 +0000
    Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-08 17:53 +0100
      Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-08 17:43 -0400
        Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-08 23:00 +0100
    Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2021-07-02 07:10 -0700
      Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-07-02 16:32 +0100
        Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2021-07-03 04:10 -0700
      Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2021-07-08 01:01 -0700
        Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2021-07-08 11:36 +0100
          Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2021-07-08 16:01 -0400
            Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-07-08 15:01 -0700
              Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-07-08 22:45 +0000
            Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-07-08 19:30 -0400
            Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2021-07-08 21:02 -0500
        Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2021-07-08 12:09 +0000
          Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2021-07-08 13:44 +0100
            Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2021-07-08 12:49 +0000
              Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2021-07-08 13:53 +0100
                Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-07-08 14:17 +0100
                  Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2021-07-08 22:00 +0100
        Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-07-08 13:56 +0000
      Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Daniel Jendinger <hexabit@daniels-mac-mini2.local> - 2021-09-06 18:56 +0000
        Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-09-06 17:27 -0400
        Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-09-06 22:30 +0100
    Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2021-07-02 09:29 -0700

Page 1 of 8  [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8  Next page →

#213787 — Where did Microsoft go wrong?

With MS-DOS and early versions of Windows, Microsoft
provided products to help you control your computer, but
with W10 they are trying to control the way you use the
computer.

W10 is increasingly pissing me off and the next PC
I buy will be LINUX based.

So, just before my 35th year of being a Microsoft
customer and user, they have finally succeeded in
driving me away.

[toc] | [next] | [standalone]

#213796

On Sat, 05 Sep 2020 20:57:50 +0100, gareth evans wrote:

> With MS-DOS and early versions of Windows, Microsoft provided products
> to help you control your computer, but with W10 they are trying to
> control the way you use the computer.
> 
> W10 is increasingly pissing me off and the next PC I buy will be LINUX
> based.
> 
> So, just before my 35th year of being a Microsoft customer and user,
> they have finally succeeded in driving me away.

It didn't take that long for me. I was using UNIX years before MS-DIS 
existed. I started with PC-DOS 2.0 (free copy) when I was asked to write 
a book on it.

I still have Windows, but only for specialist software - my chip 
programmer, and instrumentation software for the electronics stuff 
(scope, function generator, etc.)


-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#213805

On Sat, 5 Sep 2020 20:57:50 +0100
gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:

> With MS-DOS

	Was OK ish.

> and early versions of Windows,

	Wouldn't run multiple DOS applications, I wasn't impressed.

> Microsoft
> provided products to help you control your computer, but

	Hmm, "DOS ain't done 'till Lotus won't run" - remember that ?

> with W10 they are trying to control the way you use the
> computer.

	Not new.

> So, just before my 35th year of being a Microsoft
> customer and user, they have finally succeeded in
> driving me away.

	They never managed to attract me in the first place, but then the
first time I came across the idea that their code might not be the best was
at Newbury Labs when Basil's student programmer (whose name I think was
Clive but ICBW) came down the stairs shouting "We've done it, we've got 16K
BASIC into 4K of ROM", meaning all the features of a typical Microsoft 16K
BASIC.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#213976

On 2020-09-05, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

> On Sat, 5 Sep 2020 20:57:50 +0100
> gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> With MS-DOS
>
> 	Was OK ish.
>
>> and early versions of Windows,
>
> 	Wouldn't run multiple DOS applications, I wasn't impressed.
>
>> Microsoft
>> provided products to help you control your computer, but
>
> 	Hmm, "DOS ain't done 'till Lotus won't run" - remember that ?

Yup.  Also, later, "Best viewed with Internet Explorer".

>> with W10 they are trying to control the way you use the
>> computer.
>
> 	Not new.

No, but the coercion is getting noticeably stronger.
Sort of like macOS.

>> So, just before my 35th year of being a Microsoft
>> customer and user, they have finally succeeded in
>> driving me away.
>
> 	They never managed to attract me in the first place, but then the
> first time I came across the idea that their code might not be the best was
> at Newbury Labs when Basil's student programmer (whose name I think was
> Clive but ICBW) came down the stairs shouting "We've done it, we've got 16K
> BASIC into 4K of ROM", meaning all the features of a typical Microsoft 16K
> BASIC.

My reasons are far more mundane.  Like the COPY command refusing to
copy a zero-length file - although it would still delete a file of the
same name if one already existed.  That little "feature" made a beta
site die, and took a month's worth of data with it.

Or Windows' lackadaisical attitude about deleting files.  "OK, I'll
do it - when I feel like getting around to it."  So if your program
copies a file to a work file, making changes as it goes, then deletes
the file and renames the work file back to the original name, there's
a small but finite chance that the rename will fail because the delete
hasn't yet been done.  If you have 1000 customers running that program
a couple of times daily, it won't be long before you get anguished
calls about missing files.

Microsoft has some serious philosophical problems, which are
too deeply ingrained in the corporate culture for me to ever
feel safe with them.

-- 
/~\  Charlie Gibbs                  |  Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ /  <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>      |  Apple is a cult.
 X   I'm really at ac.dekanfrus     |  Linux is anarchy.
/ \  if you read it the right way.  |  Pick your poison.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#213807

On Sat, 2020-09-05, gareth evans wrote:
> With MS-DOS and early versions of Windows, Microsoft
> provided products to help you control your computer, but
> with W10 they are trying to control the way you use the
> computer.
>
> W10 is increasingly pissing me off and the next PC
> I buy will be LINUX based.

You don't have to wait; if all important hardware in your current
PC is supported, you can blow away Windows and install Linux on it
tomorrow.  Ubuntu Linux is a popular choice.

/Jorgen

-- 
  // Jorgen Grahn <grahn@  Oo  o.   .     .
\X/     snipabacken.se>   O  o   .

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#213809

On 5 Sep 2020 22:50:48 GMT, Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se>
wrote:

>On Sat, 2020-09-05, gareth evans wrote:
>> With MS-DOS and early versions of Windows, Microsoft
>> provided products to help you control your computer, but
>> with W10 they are trying to control the way you use the
>> computer.
>>
>> W10 is increasingly pissing me off and the next PC
>> I buy will be LINUX based.
>
>You don't have to wait; if all important hardware in your current
>PC is supported, you can blow away Windows and install Linux on it
>tomorrow.  Ubuntu Linux is a popular choice.

Or even (shhh) OS/X.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#213827

On Sat, 05 Sep 2020 19:35:22 -0400
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

> >You don't have to wait; if all important hardware in your current
> >PC is supported, you can blow away Windows and install Linux on it
> >tomorrow.  Ubuntu Linux is a popular choice.
> 
> Or even (shhh) OS/X.

	I don't think you can do that legally.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#218244

On Sunday, September 6, 2020 at 12:30:05 AM UTC-6, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Sat, 05 Sep 2020 19:35:22 -0400 
> J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote: 

> > Or even (shhh) OS/X.

> I don't think you can do that legally.

Well, he did say "shhh", so I think he knows that.

My response, though, is simpler: what would be the point?

If Microsoft wants to control how you use your computer, Apple is
even worse in this regard. The reason some people are hesitant
to go with Linux instead of Windows is because of the availability
of software; the limited market share of the Macintosh means that it
has a similar problem.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that I wouldn't accept a Macintosh if
they were giving them away. At least on an Intel Mac, I could always
install Windows. When it comes to pirating OS X to make a "hackintosh",
though, that particular option doesn't come up, so that's one form of
Macintosh that indeed I am not interested in even though it's being
"given away" in a sense.

John Savard

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#218245

On 02/07/2021 17:36, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Sunday, September 6, 2020 at 12:30:05 AM UTC-6, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> On Sat, 05 Sep 2020 19:35:22 -0400
>> J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> Or even (shhh) OS/X.
>
>> I don't think you can do that legally.
>
> Well, he did say "shhh", so I think he knows that.
>
> My response, though, is simpler: what would be the point?
>
> If Microsoft wants to control how you use your computer, Apple is
> even worse in this regard. The reason some people are hesitant
> to go with Linux instead of Windows is because of the availability
> of software; the limited market share of the Macintosh means that it
> has a similar problem.

There must be sufficient of we retirees with relevant experience
and  with no need of financial paybacks to provide the softwares
that are lacking in LINUX in comparison to Windows.

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#218247

On Fri, 2 Jul 2021 19:05:03 +0100
gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:

> There must be sufficient of we retirees with relevant experience
> and  with no need of financial paybacks to provide the softwares
> that are lacking in LINUX in comparison to Windows.

	Not when what is wanted is a bug-for-bug, UI feature for UI feature
duplicate of some commercial behemoth like say Adobe's suite of tools for
photographers. Just for editing there's the Gimp but professionals use
Photoshop and Lightroom and wouldn't touch anything else (at least that's
what the photographers I know tell me), similarly musicians and recording
studio folks tend to want Ableton and nothing else will do. These people
have jobs to do and want to use the tools they know and trust. There are
thousands of other examples in more specialised fields from accountancy to
aircraft design by way of choreography, interior design and zoo management.

	Like it or not pretty much every company that invests heavily in
producing a top class piece of software for professionals or industry
niches is going to put it on Windows first, maybe Mac and nothing else
unless it is dead easy and unsupported and no bunch of enthusiasts is going
to come near them because it's like chasing a Ferrari down the Autobahn on
a bicycle.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

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#218248

On 02/07/2021 21:44, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Fri, 2 Jul 2021 19:05:03 +0100
> gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> There must be sufficient of we retirees with relevant experience
>> and  with no need of financial paybacks to provide the softwares
>> that are lacking in LINUX in comparison to Windows.

...

> 	Like it or not pretty much every company that invests heavily in
> producing a top class piece of software for professionals or industry
> niches is going to put it on Windows first, maybe Mac and nothing else
> unless it is dead easy and unsupported and no bunch of enthusiasts is going
> to come near them because it's like chasing a Ferrari down the Autobahn on
> a bicycle.

Do I detect a whiff of vested interest?

But we're not a bunch of enthusiasts; we're retirees who are every bit
experienced, competent and professional as those still in employment and 
maybe even more so!

We're of an age when we were selected for our natural ability, many
from non-computing professions whereas
many of today's programmers are clueless about anything other than C
and had to be taught even about that.

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#218253

In article <sbnvob$4ka$1@dont-email.me>,
gareth evans  <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On 02/07/2021 21:44, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> On Fri, 2 Jul 2021 19:05:03 +0100
>> gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> There must be sufficient of we retirees with relevant experience
>>> and  with no need of financial paybacks to provide the softwares
>>> that are lacking in LINUX in comparison to Windows.
>
>...
>
>> 	Like it or not pretty much every company that invests heavily in
>> producing a top class piece of software for professionals or industry
>> niches is going to put it on Windows first, maybe Mac and nothing else
>> unless it is dead easy and unsupported and no bunch of enthusiasts is going
>> to come near them because it's like chasing a Ferrari down the Autobahn on
>> a bicycle.
>
>Do I detect a whiff of vested interest?
>
>But we're not a bunch of enthusiasts; we're retirees who are every bit
>experienced, competent and professional as those still in employment and 
>maybe even more so!
>
>We're of an age when we were selected for our natural ability, many
>from non-computing professions whereas
>many of today's programmers are clueless about anything other than C
>and had to be taught even about that.
>
>

I don't think many of "today's" programmers know a whit of C.
-- 
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

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#218256

On 7/2/2021 4:16 PM, gareth evans wrote:
> On 02/07/2021 21:44, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> On Fri, 2 Jul 2021 19:05:03 +0100
>> gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> There must be sufficient of we retirees with relevant experience
>>> and  with no need of financial paybacks to provide the softwares
>>> that are lacking in LINUX in comparison to Windows.
> 
> ...
> 
>>     Like it or not pretty much every company that invests heavily in
>> producing a top class piece of software for professionals or industry
>> niches is going to put it on Windows first, maybe Mac and nothing else
>> unless it is dead easy and unsupported and no bunch of enthusiasts 
>> is going
>> to come near them because it's like chasing a Ferrari down the 
>> Autobahn on
>> a bicycle.
> 
> Do I detect a whiff of vested interest?
> 
> But we're not a bunch of enthusiasts; we're retirees who are every bit
> experienced, competent and professional as those still in employment 
> and maybe even more so!

That's true. But the retirees (and others), scattered around the world 
without much in the way of organization, are competing against a 
thousand programmers/engineers/etc. who are willing to spend 8hr/day 
on a project, working in unison. People who can be counted on to show 
up for another 8 hr tomorrow, because their paycheck depends on it. I 
think maybe the retirees et al. provide more bang per hour for the 
buck, but they are often going in different directions.

It's not insurmountable odds, but they're pretty steep. Linus manages 
to keep a herd working together, but a significant fraction of the 
herd  is actually paid by their employer to do the work. I do worry 
about what will happen when Linus reaches the end of his service life.


> 
> We're of an age when we were selected for our natural ability, many
> from non-computing professions whereas
> many of today's programmers are clueless about anything other than C
> and had to be taught even about that.
> 
> 

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#218249

On Friday, July 2, 2021 at 5:00:02 PM UTC-4, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Fri, 2 Jul 2021 19:05:03 +0100 
> gareth evans <headst...@yahoo.com> wrote: 
> 
> > There must be sufficient of we retirees with relevant experience 
> > and with no need of financial paybacks to provide the softwares 
> > that are lacking in LINUX in comparison to Windows.
> Not when what is wanted is a bug-for-bug, UI feature for UI feature 
> duplicate of some commercial behemoth like say Adobe's suite of tools for 
> photographers. Just for editing there's the Gimp but professionals use 
> Photoshop and Lightroom and wouldn't touch anything else (at least that's 
> what the photographers I know tell me), similarly musicians and recording 
> studio folks tend to want Ableton and nothing else will do. These people 
> have jobs to do and want to use the tools they know and trust. There are 
> thousands of other examples in more specialised fields from accountancy to 
> aircraft design by way of choreography, interior design and zoo management. 
> 
> Like it or not pretty much every company that invests heavily in 
> producing a top class piece of software for professionals or industry 
> niches is going to put it on Windows first, maybe Mac and nothing else 
> unless it is dead easy and unsupported and no bunch of enthusiasts is going 
> to come near them because it's like chasing a Ferrari down the Autobahn on 
> a bicycle. 
> 
> -- 
> Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays 
> C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun 
> The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see 
> You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/

Really... Windows first?

I am (semi-retired) and working for a emergency services company.

Fire Dispatch service, including mapping, gis, gps services. We deliver both hardware
and software. Linux for servers, and linux preferred for clients. Windows is supported,
but is a pain. In-truck systems are typically Windows.

And, yes, we are professional -- as in, "system cannot fail", ever. Internet down? Still
works, Power goes out? Stil works? Server is destroyed by earthquake? Still works.
365x7x24. Linux for the servers, and MOST clients. Windows only for some of the
"edge".
We are not "enthusiasts", driving a Ferrari. Its more like a truck. And -- yes, we typically
have 3 or 4 30 inch 4k monitors tied to a single client, doing dispatch. And, of course,
completely redundant servers, switches. Multiple links so that a cable break doesn't
matter. Windows? Hard to get everything together.

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#218262

Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>On Fri, 2 Jul 2021 19:05:03 +0100
>gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> There must be sufficient of we retirees with relevant experience
>> and  with no need of financial paybacks to provide the softwares
>> that are lacking in LINUX in comparison to Windows.
>
>	Not when what is wanted is a bug-for-bug, UI feature for UI feature
>duplicate of some commercial behemoth like say Adobe's suite of tools for
>photographers. Just for editing there's the Gimp but professionals use
>Photoshop and Lightroom and wouldn't touch anything else (at least that's
>what the photographers I know tell me), similarly musicians and recording
>studio folks tend to want Ableton and nothing else will do. These people
>have jobs to do and want to use the tools they know and trust. There are
>thousands of other examples in more specialised fields from accountancy to
>aircraft design by way of choreography, interior design and zoo management.

There are many counter-examples of linux versions that are widely
used amongst professionals (some of which even use Gimp).   Blender
comes to mind, as well as a number of engineering libraries and
applications.   R.

Most of the chip design tools run on linux as first class platforms
with windows a distant (very very very) second.

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#218269

On Sat, 03 Jul 2021 17:35:37 GMT
scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:

> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
> >On Fri, 2 Jul 2021 19:05:03 +0100
> >gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> There must be sufficient of we retirees with relevant experience
> >> and  with no need of financial paybacks to provide the softwares
> >> that are lacking in LINUX in comparison to Windows.
> >
> >	Not when what is wanted is a bug-for-bug, UI feature for UI
> >	feature
> >duplicate of some commercial behemoth like say Adobe's suite of tools for
> >photographers. Just for editing there's the Gimp but professionals use
> >Photoshop and Lightroom and wouldn't touch anything else (at least that's
> >what the photographers I know tell me), similarly musicians and recording
> >studio folks tend to want Ableton and nothing else will do. These people
> >have jobs to do and want to use the tools they know and trust. There are
> >thousands of other examples in more specialised fields from accountancy
> >to aircraft design by way of choreography, interior design and zoo
> >management.
> 
> There are many counter-examples of linux versions that are widely

	There is a scant handful of examples compared to the nearly
complete vertical market coverage of Windows.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

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#218246

Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> On Sunday, September 6, 2020 at 12:30:05 AM UTC-6, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> On Sat, 05 Sep 2020 19:35:22 -0400 
>> J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote: 
> 
>>> Or even (shhh) OS/X.
> 
>> I don't think you can do that legally.
> 
> Well, he did say "shhh", so I think he knows that.
> 
> My response, though, is simpler: what would be the point?
> 
> If Microsoft wants to control how you use your computer, Apple is
> even worse in this regard. The reason some people are hesitant
> to go with Linux instead of Windows is because of the availability
> of software; the limited market share of the Macintosh means that it
> has a similar problem.

I don’t get this at all. Yes there are some specialized packages that may
require win, but from my experience almost all general-purpose software is
either available for Linux or has an equivalent that is at least as good.

> 
> I wouldn't go so far as to say that I wouldn't accept a Macintosh if
> they were giving them away. At least on an Intel Mac, I could always
> install Windows. When it comes to pirating OS X to make a "hackintosh",
> though, that particular option doesn't come up, so that's one form of
> Macintosh that indeed I am not interested in even though it's being
> "given away" in a sense.
> 
> John Savard
> 



-- 
Pete

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#218251

On 2021-07-02, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>> If Microsoft wants to control how you use your computer, Apple is
>> even worse in this regard. The reason some people are hesitant
>> to go with Linux instead of Windows is because of the availability
>> of software; the limited market share of the Macintosh means that it
>> has a similar problem.
>
> I don’t get this at all. Yes there are some specialized packages that may
> require win, but from my experience almost all general-purpose software is
> either available for Linux or has an equivalent that is at least as good.

steveo@eircom.net addressed this in a subsequent posting:

> On Fri, 2 Jul 2021 19:05:03 +0100
> gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> There must be sufficient of we retirees with relevant experience
>> and with no need of financial paybacks to provide the softwares
>> that are lacking in LINUX in comparison to Windows.
>
>	Not when what is wanted is a bug-for-bug, UI feature for
> UI feature duplicate of some commercial behemoth like say Adobe's
> suite of tools for photographers.

People don't want to switch to a package that works better.
They want something that works exactly like the one they're
used to - warts and all.

>> I wouldn't go so far as to say that I wouldn't accept a Macintosh
>> if they were giving them away.

I would.  Any time I have to do something on my wife's Macbook,
I get the impression that I'm not so much using the system as
it is using me.

-- 
/~\  Charlie Gibbs                  |  They don't understand Microsoft
\ /  <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>      |  has stolen their car and parked
 X   I'm really at ac.dekanfrus     |  a taxi in their driveway.
/ \  if you read it the right way.  |    -- Mayayana

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#218257

On 03/07/2021 00:28, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
> People don't want to switch to a package that works better.
> They want something that works exactly like the one they're
> used to - warts and all.

Come back, Windows XP! All is forgiven!

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#218263

On 2021-07-03, gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On 03/07/2021 00:28, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> People don't want to switch to a package that works better.
>> They want something that works exactly like the one they're
>> used to - warts and all.
>
> Come back, Windows XP! All is forgiven!

That's why it lives on in a VM on my Linux boxes, for times
when I must use Windows (e.g. development).  IMHO Windows'
usability peaked somewhere between 2000 and XP, and has been
going downhill ever since.

-- 
/~\  Charlie Gibbs                  |  They don't understand Microsoft
\ /  <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>      |  has stolen their car and parked
 X   I'm really at ac.dekanfrus     |  a taxi in their driveway.
/ \  if you read it the right way.  |    -- Mayayana

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