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Groups > alt.folklore.computers > #163800 > unrolled thread

CS instead of math?

Started byusenet@only.tnx (Questor)
First post2016-05-21 00:57 +0000
Last post2016-06-02 19:47 -0700
Articles 20 on this page of 136 — 23 participants

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  CS instead of math? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2016-05-21 00:57 +0000
    Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-20 22:13 -0400
      Re: CS instead of math? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-05-21 11:39 +0000
    Re: CS instead of math? bert <bert.hutchings@btinternet.com> - 2016-05-21 13:23 -0700
      Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-21 22:36 -0400
        Re: CS instead of math? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-05-24 18:00 +0000
          Re: CS instead of math? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-05-24 20:27 +0200
          Re: CS instead of math? Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> - 2016-05-25 06:56 +0100
            Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-05-25 07:42 +0100
              Re: CS instead of math? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-05-25 09:39 +0200
                Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-05-25 09:37 +0100
                  Re: CS instead of math? Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-05-25 13:05 +0000
                  Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-26 07:07 -0400
                    Re: CS instead of math? Morten Reistad <first@Last.name.invalid> - 2016-05-26 13:34 +0200
                    Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-05-26 14:02 +0100
                      Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-26 19:46 -0400
                      Re: CS instead of math? Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-05-26 19:17 -0500
                        Re: CS instead of math? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-05-27 06:56 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-05-25 07:26 -0500
                  Re: CS instead of math? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-05-25 14:40 +0200
                Re: CS instead of math? Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2016-05-25 16:19 -0300
                  Re: CS instead of math? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-05-25 16:15 -0400
                  Re: CS instead of math? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-05-25 22:29 +0200
                  Re: CS instead of math? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-05-25 21:19 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? sidd@situ.com (sidd) - 2016-05-26 16:34 -0400
            Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-26 07:04 -0400
              Re: CS instead of math? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-05-26 13:28 +0200
                Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-05-26 14:06 +0100
                  Re: CS instead of math? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-05-26 18:57 +0200
                    Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-05-26 18:19 +0100
                    Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-05-26 18:35 +0100
                    Re: CS instead of math? cb@elaine.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen) - 2016-05-26 22:05 +0000
                      Re: CS instead of math? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-05-27 15:33 +0000
                        Re: CS instead of math? Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2016-05-27 15:40 -0300
              Re: CS instead of math? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-05-26 14:43 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-05-26 11:03 -0500
                  Re: CS instead of math? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-05-26 16:27 +0000
                    Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-05-26 17:52 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-05-26 16:22 -0400
              Re: CS instead of math? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2016-05-31 17:27 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-05-31 20:06 +0000
                  Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-31 21:08 -0400
                    Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-01 07:17 +0100
                      Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 05:31 -0400
                        Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-01 11:56 +0100
                          Re: CS instead of math? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-06-01 16:00 +0100
                            Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-01 17:15 +0100
                              Re: CS instead of math? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-01 19:28 +0000
                          Re: CS instead of math? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-01 17:42 +0000
                            Re: CS instead of math? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-01 13:03 -0700
                          Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 17:05 -0400
                      Re: CS instead of math? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-01 12:48 -0700
                        Re: CS instead of math? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-01 17:34 -0400
                          Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-02 07:50 +0100
                            Re: CS instead of math? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-02 10:37 +0000
                              Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-02 12:33 +0100
                                Re: CS instead of math? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-02 12:08 +0000
                          Re: CS instead of math? Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-06-02 08:17 +0000
                            Re: CS instead of math? Andy Burns <feb2017-usenet@adslpipe.co.uk> - 2016-06-02 09:49 +0100
                              Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-02 12:09 +0100
                                Re: CS instead of math? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-03 13:16 +0000
                              Re: CS instead of math? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-02 12:09 +0000
                                Re: CS instead of math? Andy Burns <feb2017-usenet@adslpipe.co.uk> - 2016-06-02 14:09 +0100
                                  Re: CS instead of math? Andy Burns <feb2017-usenet@adslpipe.co.uk> - 2016-06-02 14:12 +0100
                                    Re: CS instead of math? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-02 19:44 -0700
                                  Re: CS instead of math? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-03 13:16 +0000
                                Re: CS instead of math? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-02 15:02 +0200
                                  Re: CS instead of math? Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-06-02 16:44 +0000
                                Re: CS instead of math? Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-06-02 16:43 +0000
                              Re: CS instead of math? Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-06-02 16:42 +0000
                            Re: CS instead of math? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-02 16:41 -0400
                              Re: CS instead of math? Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-06-02 22:18 +0000
                    Re: CS instead of math? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-01 17:42 +0000
                      Re: CS instead of math? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-01 22:03 +0200
                  Re: CS instead of math? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-01 12:47 -0700
                Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-31 20:58 -0400
                  Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-01 07:29 +0100
                    Re: CS instead of math? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-01 11:59 +0200
                      Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 06:48 -0400
                        Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-01 12:41 +0100
                          Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 17:04 -0400
                            Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-02 07:59 +0100
                              Re: CS instead of math? Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-06-02 08:18 +0000
                              Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 19:53 -0400
                      Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-01 12:15 +0100
                      Re: CS instead of math? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-01 17:42 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-01 13:51 +0000
      Re: CS instead of math? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-05-22 11:27 +0100
        Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-22 07:21 -0400
          Re: CS instead of math? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-05-22 13:15 +0000
            Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-22 09:53 -0400
          Re: CS instead of math? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2016-05-25 07:18 +0000
            Re: CS instead of math? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-05-25 09:42 +0200
              Re: CS instead of math? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-05-25 13:11 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-05-25 16:15 -0400
                  Re: CS instead of math? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-05-25 22:31 +0200
                    Re: CS instead of math? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-05-26 11:23 +0100
                    Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-05-26 11:37 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2016-05-26 17:56 +0000
              Re: CS instead of math? sidd@situ.com (sidd) - 2016-05-26 16:36 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-26 19:51 -0400
            Re: CS instead of math? "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-05-25 07:43 -0500
              Re: CS instead of math? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2016-05-26 17:55 +0000
            Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-26 07:14 -0400
              Re: CS instead of math? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2016-05-27 17:40 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-27 18:46 -0400
                  Re: CS instead of math? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2016-05-31 17:28 +0000
                    Re: CS instead of math? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-05-31 16:09 -0400
                    Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-31 21:07 -0400
                      Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-01 08:58 +0100
                        Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 05:48 -0400
                          Re: CS instead of math? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-01 12:06 +0200
                            Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 06:46 -0400
                            Re: CS instead of math? sidd@situ.com (sidd) - 2016-06-03 16:05 -0400
                              Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 20:49 -0400
                                Re: CS instead of math? sidd@situ.com (sidd) - 2016-06-04 22:29 -0400
                          Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-01 12:27 +0100
                            Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 17:07 -0400
                              Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-02 08:12 +0100
                                Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 19:56 -0400
                                  Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-03 09:17 +0100
                          Re: CS instead of math? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-01 13:20 -0700
                            Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 17:10 -0400
                          Re: CS instead of math? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2016-06-02 17:58 +0000
                            Re: CS instead of math? "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-06-02 13:57 -0500
                              Re: CS instead of math? Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2016-06-02 17:43 -0300
                            Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 20:08 -0400
                      Re: CS instead of math? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2016-06-02 17:58 +0000
                        Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 20:05 -0400
                          Re: CS instead of math? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-03 10:38 +0000
                            Re: CS instead of math? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-03 11:41 +0100
                            Re: CS instead of math? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-03 13:16 +0000
                          Re: CS instead of math? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2016-06-09 05:49 +0000
                            Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-09 19:58 -0400
                              Re: CS instead of math? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2016-06-17 03:35 +0000
                        Re: CS instead of math? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-02 19:47 -0700

Page 1 of 7  [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7  Next page →

#163800 — CS instead of math?

Fromusenet@only.tnx (Questor)
Date2016-05-21 00:57 +0000
SubjectCS instead of math?
Message-ID<573fb25c.33979790@nntp2.rawbw.com>
Should high school CS coursework be permitted as a substitute for mathematics
in college entrance requirements?  Discuss.

========================================

University of California pressured to count computer science toward high school
math requirement
http://www.mercurynews.com/california/ci_29245938/uc-under-pressure-count-high-school-computer-science

"Now, a powerful coalition of technology leaders, state politicians and high
school teachers has taken aim at the university's influential set of high school
courses required for admission, pressuring UC to count computer science as
advanced math, alongside calculus and statistics."

[toc] | [next] | [standalone]

#163802

From"J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com>
Date2016-05-20 22:13 -0400
Message-ID<MPG.31a98e6d61c86d3a98a1b1@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#163800
In article <573fb25c.33979790@nntp2.rawbw.com>, usenet@only.tnx says...
> 
> Should high school CS coursework be permitted as a substitute for mathematics
> in college entrance requirements?  Discuss.
> 
> ========================================
> 
> University of California pressured to count computer science toward high school
> math requirement
> http://www.mercurynews.com/california/ci_29245938/uc-under-pressure-count-high-school-computer-science
> 
> "Now, a powerful coalition of technology leaders, state politicians and high
> school teachers has taken aim at the university's influential set of high school
> courses required for admission, pressuring UC to count computer science as
> advanced math, alongside calculus and statistics."

Depends on the content.  30 years ago when you actually had to know 
something to make a computer do anything I would have been more in favor 
of it, but given that recent CS college grads can't write simple 
programs I'm less inclined to support it now.  YMMV.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#163804

Fromjmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com>
Date2016-05-21 11:39 +0000
Message-ID<PM000533589ED323E7@aca404e9.ipt.aol.com>
In reply to#163802
J. Clarke wrote:
> In article <573fb25c.33979790@nntp2.rawbw.com>, usenet@only.tnx says...
>>
>> Should high school CS coursework be permitted as a substitute for
mathematics
>> in college entrance requirements?  Discuss.
>>
>> ========================================
>>
>> University of California pressured to count computer science toward high
school
>> math requirement
>> http://www.mercurynews.com/california/ci_29245938/uc-under-pressure-count-h
igh-school-computer-science
>>
>> "Now, a powerful coalition of technology leaders, state politicians and
high
>> school teachers has taken aim at the university's influential set of high
school
>> courses required for admission, pressuring UC to count computer science as
>> advanced math, alongside calculus and statistics."
>
> Depends on the content.  30 years ago when you actually had to know
> something to make a computer do anything I would have been more in favor
> of it, but given that recent CS college grads can't write simple
> programs I'm less inclined to support it now.  YMMV.
>
I think there should be a requirement but NOT as a substitute to math.

/BAH

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#163809

Frombert <bert.hutchings@btinternet.com>
Date2016-05-21 13:23 -0700
Message-ID<0c7d2fa2-021e-4ae1-b6d6-bc352dfa2a76@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#163800
On Saturday, 21 May 2016 01:55:28 UTC+1, Questor  wrote:
> Should high school CS coursework be permitted as a substitute 
> for mathematics in college entrance requirements?  Discuss.

People who know something about CS, but not very much, usually 
think that CS is predominantly mathematical.  People who know 
rather more are aware that CS skills are much more akin to 
language skills (especially classical) than to math skills.
--

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#163811

From"J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com>
Date2016-05-21 22:36 -0400
Message-ID<MPG.31aaaa383959da6298a1ba@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#163809
In article <0c7d2fa2-021e-4ae1-b6d6-bc352dfa2a76@googlegroups.com>, 
bert.hutchings@btinternet.com says...
> 
> On Saturday, 21 May 2016 01:55:28 UTC+1, Questor  wrote:
> > Should high school CS coursework be permitted as a substitute 
> > for mathematics in college entrance requirements?  Discuss.
> 
> People who know something about CS, but not very much, usually 
> think that CS is predominantly mathematical.  People who know 
> rather more are aware that CS skills are much more akin to 
> language skills (especially classical) than to math skills.

And anybody who has had to debug someone else's code knows that there's 
also a strong dose of detective skills.

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#163923

FromCharlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
Date2016-05-24 18:00 +0000
Message-ID<ni24sk52fbd@news4.newsguy.com>
In reply to#163811
On 2016-05-22, J. Clarke <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

> In article <0c7d2fa2-021e-4ae1-b6d6-bc352dfa2a76@googlegroups.com>, 
> bert.hutchings@btinternet.com says...
> 
>> On Saturday, 21 May 2016 01:55:28 UTC+1, Questor  wrote:
>>
>>> Should high school CS coursework be permitted as a substitute 
>>> for mathematics in college entrance requirements?  Discuss.
>> 
>> People who know something about CS, but not very much, usually 
>> think that CS is predominantly mathematical.  People who know 
>> rather more are aware that CS skills are much more akin to 
>> language skills (especially classical) than to math skills.
>
> And anybody who has had to debug someone else's code knows that there's 
> also a strong dose of detective skills.  

That's not CS, that's the real world.  Different universes.

-- 
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored.  Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!

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#163926

FromMorten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid>
Date2016-05-24 20:27 +0200
Message-ID<12je1d-j61.ln1@sambook.reistad.name>
In reply to#163923
In article <ni24sk52fbd@news4.newsguy.com>,
Charlie Gibbs  <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>On 2016-05-22, J. Clarke <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <0c7d2fa2-021e-4ae1-b6d6-bc352dfa2a76@googlegroups.com>, 
>> bert.hutchings@btinternet.com says...
>> 
>>> On Saturday, 21 May 2016 01:55:28 UTC+1, Questor  wrote:
>>>
>>>> Should high school CS coursework be permitted as a substitute 
>>>> for mathematics in college entrance requirements?  Discuss.
>>> 
>>> People who know something about CS, but not very much, usually 
>>> think that CS is predominantly mathematical.  People who know 
>>> rather more are aware that CS skills are much more akin to 
>>> language skills (especially classical) than to math skills.
>>
>> And anybody who has had to debug someone else's code knows that there's 
>> also a strong dose of detective skills.  
>
>That's not CS, that's the real world.  Different universes.

Computer forensics. Only somewhat related to the "science" part. Or
another science in it's own right.

-- mrr

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#163950

FromBob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com>
Date2016-05-25 06:56 +0100
Message-ID<dqkt3mFqjklU2@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#163923
in 665169 20160524 190052 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>On 2016-05-22, J. Clarke <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <0c7d2fa2-021e-4ae1-b6d6-bc352dfa2a76@googlegroups.com>,
>> bert.hutchings@btinternet.com says...
>>
>>> On Saturday, 21 May 2016 01:55:28 UTC+1, Questor  wrote:
>>>
>>>> Should high school CS coursework be permitted as a substitute
>>>> for mathematics in college entrance requirements?  Discuss.
>>>
>>> People who know something about CS, but not very much, usually
>>> think that CS is predominantly mathematical.  People who know
>>> rather more are aware that CS skills are much more akin to
>>> language skills (especially classical) than to math skills.
>>
>> And anybody who has had to debug someone else's code knows that there's
>> also a strong dose of detective skills.
>
>That's not CS, that's the real world.  Different universes.

See how a plumber or carpenter gets on debugging code!

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#163954

FromAhem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net>
Date2016-05-25 07:42 +0100
Message-ID<20160525074241.4a4fb3a4c269da21e1145157@eircom.net>
In reply to#163950
On Wed, 25 May 2016 06:56:06 BST
Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> wrote:

> in 665169 20160524 190052 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> >On 2016-05-22, J. Clarke <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> In article <0c7d2fa2-021e-4ae1-b6d6-bc352dfa2a76@googlegroups.com>,
> >> bert.hutchings@btinternet.com says...
> >>
> >>> On Saturday, 21 May 2016 01:55:28 UTC+1, Questor  wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Should high school CS coursework be permitted as a substitute
> >>>> for mathematics in college entrance requirements?  Discuss.
> >>>
> >>> People who know something about CS, but not very much, usually
> >>> think that CS is predominantly mathematical.  People who know
> >>> rather more are aware that CS skills are much more akin to
> >>> language skills (especially classical) than to math skills.
> >>
> >> And anybody who has had to debug someone else's code knows that there's
> >> also a strong dose of detective skills.
> >
> >That's not CS, that's the real world.  Different universes.
> 
> See how a plumber or carpenter gets on debugging code!

	Probably not too well, they don't deal with complex systems, you'll
do better with just about any kind of engineer - which is why so many of
them were able to become programmers during the 80s and 90s.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN                                      | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#163956

FromMorten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid>
Date2016-05-25 09:39 +0200
Message-ID<td1g1d-df3.ln1@sambook.reistad.name>
In reply to#163954
In article <20160525074241.4a4fb3a4c269da21e1145157@eircom.net>,
Ahem A Rivet's Shot  <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>On Wed, 25 May 2016 06:56:06 BST
>Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> wrote:
>
>> in 665169 20160524 190052 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>> >On 2016-05-22, J. Clarke <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> In article <0c7d2fa2-021e-4ae1-b6d6-bc352dfa2a76@googlegroups.com>,
>> >> bert.hutchings@btinternet.com says...
>> >>
>> >>> On Saturday, 21 May 2016 01:55:28 UTC+1, Questor  wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> Should high school CS coursework be permitted as a substitute
>> >>>> for mathematics in college entrance requirements?  Discuss.
>> >>>
>> >>> People who know something about CS, but not very much, usually
>> >>> think that CS is predominantly mathematical.  People who know
>> >>> rather more are aware that CS skills are much more akin to
>> >>> language skills (especially classical) than to math skills.
>> >>
>> >> And anybody who has had to debug someone else's code knows that there's
>> >> also a strong dose of detective skills.
>> >
>> >That's not CS, that's the real world.  Different universes.
>> 
>> See how a plumber or carpenter gets on debugging code!
>
>	Probably not too well, they don't deal with complex systems, you'll
>do better with just about any kind of engineer - which is why so many of
>them were able to become programmers during the 80s and 90s.

All the normal craftspeople/builders (plumbers,electricians,carpenters etc)
are taught to build to code and get it right the first time. This is such
an ingrained part of their training that they are quite alien to the art
of debugging. There aren't supposed to be bugs there at all.

-- mrr

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#163958

FromAhem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net>
Date2016-05-25 09:37 +0100
Message-ID<20160525093709.101663bfa7590569180382ec@eircom.net>
In reply to#163956
On Wed, 25 May 2016 09:39:09 +0200
Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> wrote:

> In article <20160525074241.4a4fb3a4c269da21e1145157@eircom.net>,
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot  <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> >On Wed, 25 May 2016 06:56:06 BST
> >Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> wrote:
> >
> >> in 665169 20160524 190052 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
> >> wrote:
> >> >On 2016-05-22, J. Clarke <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> In article <0c7d2fa2-021e-4ae1-b6d6-bc352dfa2a76@googlegroups.com>,
> >> >> bert.hutchings@btinternet.com says...
> >> >>
> >> >>> On Saturday, 21 May 2016 01:55:28 UTC+1, Questor  wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> Should high school CS coursework be permitted as a substitute
> >> >>>> for mathematics in college entrance requirements?  Discuss.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> People who know something about CS, but not very much, usually
> >> >>> think that CS is predominantly mathematical.  People who know
> >> >>> rather more are aware that CS skills are much more akin to
> >> >>> language skills (especially classical) than to math skills.
> >> >>
> >> >> And anybody who has had to debug someone else's code knows that
> >> >> there's also a strong dose of detective skills.
> >> >
> >> >That's not CS, that's the real world.  Different universes.
> >> 
> >> See how a plumber or carpenter gets on debugging code!
> >
> >	Probably not too well, they don't deal with complex systems,
> >	you'll
> >do better with just about any kind of engineer - which is why so many of
> >them were able to become programmers during the 80s and 90s.
> 
> All the normal craftspeople/builders (plumbers,electricians,carpenters
> etc) are taught to build to code and get it right the first time. This is
> such an ingrained part of their training that they are quite alien to the
> art of debugging. There aren't supposed to be bugs there at all.

	Up to a point, the plumber who did the first fix on our house
vanished with the job not quite complete (and without collecting his pay).
Enough was done that we didn't need to hold anything up there was just more
crawlspace work left than there should have been.

	The fun started when we came to the second fix, and the new plumber
and I spent a happy few hours working out exactly what was connected to
what and how it had all been intended to be used, this after he had wrapped
his head around the thermal store tank being plumbed ass-backwards to a
normal hot water tank.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN                                      | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#163963

FromHuge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid>
Date2016-05-25 13:05 +0000
Message-ID<dqlm9eFpejU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#163958
On 2016-05-25, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 25 May 2016 09:39:09 +0200
> Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> wrote:

[34 lines snipped]

>> All the normal craftspeople/builders (plumbers,electricians,carpenters
>> etc) are taught to build to code and get it right the first time. This is
>> such an ingrained part of their training that they are quite alien to the
>> art of debugging. There aren't supposed to be bugs there at all.

Never heard of "snagging", then?


-- 
Today is Setting Orange, the 72nd day of Discord in the YOLD 3182
                  I don't have an attitude problem.
    If you have a problem with my attitude, that's your problem.

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#164004

From"J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com>
Date2016-05-26 07:07 -0400
Message-ID<MPG.31b0a2f99c67187a98a1d6@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#163958
In article <20160525093709.101663bfa7590569180382ec@eircom.net>, 
steveo@eircom.net says...
> 
> On Wed, 25 May 2016 09:39:09 +0200
> Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> wrote:
> 
> > In article <20160525074241.4a4fb3a4c269da21e1145157@eircom.net>,
> > Ahem A Rivet's Shot  <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> > >On Wed, 25 May 2016 06:56:06 BST
> > >Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> in 665169 20160524 190052 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> >On 2016-05-22, J. Clarke <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >> In article <0c7d2fa2-021e-4ae1-b6d6-bc352dfa2a76@googlegroups.com>,
> > >> >> bert.hutchings@btinternet.com says...
> > >> >>
> > >> >>> On Saturday, 21 May 2016 01:55:28 UTC+1, Questor  wrote:
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>>> Should high school CS coursework be permitted as a substitute
> > >> >>>> for mathematics in college entrance requirements?  Discuss.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> People who know something about CS, but not very much, usually
> > >> >>> think that CS is predominantly mathematical.  People who know
> > >> >>> rather more are aware that CS skills are much more akin to
> > >> >>> language skills (especially classical) than to math skills.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> And anybody who has had to debug someone else's code knows that
> > >> >> there's also a strong dose of detective skills.
> > >> >
> > >> >That's not CS, that's the real world.  Different universes.
> > >> 
> > >> See how a plumber or carpenter gets on debugging code!
> > >
> > >	Probably not too well, they don't deal with complex systems,
> > >	you'll
> > >do better with just about any kind of engineer - which is why so many of
> > >them were able to become programmers during the 80s and 90s.
> > 
> > All the normal craftspeople/builders (plumbers,electricians,carpenters
> > etc) are taught to build to code and get it right the first time. This is
> > such an ingrained part of their training that they are quite alien to the
> > art of debugging. There aren't supposed to be bugs there at all.
> 
> 	Up to a point, the plumber who did the first fix on our house
> vanished with the job not quite complete (and without collecting his pay).
> Enough was done that we didn't need to hold anything up there was just more
> crawlspace work left than there should have been.
> 
> 	The fun started when we came to the second fix, and the new plumber
> and I spent a happy few hours working out exactly what was connected to
> what and how it had all been intended to be used, this after he had wrapped
> his head around the thermal store tank being plumbed ass-backwards to a
> normal hot water tank.

And now imagine that for a hundred-story building.  "Plumbers and 
electricians don't deal with complex systems".  Yeah.  Right.  Anybody 
who thinks that has never seen a big wiring closet.

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#164007

FromMorten Reistad <first@Last.name.invalid>
Date2016-05-26 13:34 +0200
Message-ID<ji3j1d-ep4.ln1@sambook.reistad.name>
In reply to#164004
In article <MPG.31b0a2f99c67187a98a1d6@news.eternal-september.org>,
J. Clarke <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>In article <20160525093709.101663bfa7590569180382ec@eircom.net>, 
>steveo@eircom.net says...
>> 
>> On Wed, 25 May 2016 09:39:09 +0200
>> Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> wrote:
>> 
>> > In article <20160525074241.4a4fb3a4c269da21e1145157@eircom.net>,
>> > Ahem A Rivet's Shot  <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>> > >On Wed, 25 May 2016 06:56:06 BST
>> > >Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> in 665169 20160524 190052 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
>> > >> wrote:
>> > >> >On 2016-05-22, J. Clarke <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >> >
>> > >> >> In article <0c7d2fa2-021e-4ae1-b6d6-bc352dfa2a76@googlegroups.com>,
>> > >> >> bert.hutchings@btinternet.com says...
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >>> On Saturday, 21 May 2016 01:55:28 UTC+1, Questor  wrote:
>> > >> >>>
>> > >> >>>> Should high school CS coursework be permitted as a substitute
>> > >> >>>> for mathematics in college entrance requirements?  Discuss.
>> > >> >>>
>> > >> >>> People who know something about CS, but not very much, usually
>> > >> >>> think that CS is predominantly mathematical.  People who know
>> > >> >>> rather more are aware that CS skills are much more akin to
>> > >> >>> language skills (especially classical) than to math skills.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> And anybody who has had to debug someone else's code knows that
>> > >> >> there's also a strong dose of detective skills.
>> > >> >
>> > >> >That's not CS, that's the real world.  Different universes.
>> > >> 
>> > >> See how a plumber or carpenter gets on debugging code!
>> > >
>> > >	Probably not too well, they don't deal with complex systems,
>> > >	you'll
>> > >do better with just about any kind of engineer - which is why so many of
>> > >them were able to become programmers during the 80s and 90s.
>> > 
>> > All the normal craftspeople/builders (plumbers,electricians,carpenters
>> > etc) are taught to build to code and get it right the first time. This is
>> > such an ingrained part of their training that they are quite alien to the
>> > art of debugging. There aren't supposed to be bugs there at all.
>> 
>> 	Up to a point, the plumber who did the first fix on our house
>> vanished with the job not quite complete (and without collecting his pay).
>> Enough was done that we didn't need to hold anything up there was just more
>> crawlspace work left than there should have been.
>> 
>> 	The fun started when we came to the second fix, and the new plumber
>> and I spent a happy few hours working out exactly what was connected to
>> what and how it had all been intended to be used, this after he had wrapped
>> his head around the thermal store tank being plumbed ass-backwards to a
>> normal hot water tank.
>
>And now imagine that for a hundred-story building.  "Plumbers and 
>electricians don't deal with complex systems".  Yeah.  Right.  Anybody 
>who thinks that has never seen a big wiring closet.

This is not about complexity per se, but about the kind of complexity.

A skyscraper or rail yard wiring closet / room has a lot of complexity, 
but it is well documented before it is built. There are also lots of checks
and balances in the build process, like ohming/analyzing all connections
before they are consiodered delivered. When half the room is built you are
near 50% completion.

Software should be like this too, but never is. 

When the wiring closet takes a brush with physics and has a failure it
is the designers that are in the heat of fixing it. not the electricians.

Not so with software. Unless it blows up really spectacularly.

-- mrr

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#164011

FromAhem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net>
Date2016-05-26 14:02 +0100
Message-ID<20160526140257.a02f395d1acd10c9df3f658e@eircom.net>
In reply to#164004
On Thu, 26 May 2016 07:07:25 -0400
"J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

> In article <20160525093709.101663bfa7590569180382ec@eircom.net>, 
> steveo@eircom.net says...
> > 
> > On Wed, 25 May 2016 09:39:09 +0200
> > Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> wrote:
> > 
> > > In article <20160525074241.4a4fb3a4c269da21e1145157@eircom.net>,
> > > Ahem A Rivet's Shot  <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> > > >On Wed, 25 May 2016 06:56:06 BST
> > > >Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> in 665169 20160524 190052 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >> >On 2016-05-22, J. Clarke <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> >> In article
> > > >> >> <0c7d2fa2-021e-4ae1-b6d6-bc352dfa2a76@googlegroups.com>,
> > > >> >> bert.hutchings@btinternet.com says...
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>> On Saturday, 21 May 2016 01:55:28 UTC+1, Questor  wrote:
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>> Should high school CS coursework be permitted as a substitute
> > > >> >>>> for mathematics in college entrance requirements?  Discuss.
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>> People who know something about CS, but not very much, usually
> > > >> >>> think that CS is predominantly mathematical.  People who know
> > > >> >>> rather more are aware that CS skills are much more akin to
> > > >> >>> language skills (especially classical) than to math skills.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> And anybody who has had to debug someone else's code knows that
> > > >> >> there's also a strong dose of detective skills.
> > > >> >
> > > >> >That's not CS, that's the real world.  Different universes.
> > > >> 
> > > >> See how a plumber or carpenter gets on debugging code!
> > > >
> > > >	Probably not too well, they don't deal with complex systems,
> > > >	you'll
> > > >do better with just about any kind of engineer - which is why so
> > > >many of them were able to become programmers during the 80s and 90s.
> > > 
> > > All the normal craftspeople/builders (plumbers,electricians,carpenters
> > > etc) are taught to build to code and get it right the first time.
> > > This is such an ingrained part of their training that they are quite
> > > alien to the art of debugging. There aren't supposed to be bugs there
> > > at all.
> > 
> > 	Up to a point, the plumber who did the first fix on our house
> > vanished with the job not quite complete (and without collecting his
> > pay). Enough was done that we didn't need to hold anything up there was
> > just more crawlspace work left than there should have been.
> > 
> > 	The fun started when we came to the second fix, and the new
> > plumber and I spent a happy few hours working out exactly what was
> > connected to what and how it had all been intended to be used, this
> > after he had wrapped his head around the thermal store tank being
> > plumbed ass-backwards to a normal hot water tank.
> 
> And now imagine that for a hundred-story building.

	For anything even remotely approaching that scale there will be
detailed plans of exactly where every pipe and wire goes and what it
carries.

>  "Plumbers and 
> electricians don't deal with complex systems".  Yeah.  Right.  Anybody 
> who thinks that has never seen a big wiring closet.

	The people who designed the layout for wiring, plumbing and other
services had to deal with a complex system and its failure modes. The
plumbers and electricians who work on it are expected to be able to just
follow the documentation.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN                                      | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#164044

From"J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com>
Date2016-05-26 19:46 -0400
Message-ID<MPG.31b154cedb8bb25998a1da@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#164011
In article <20160526140257.a02f395d1acd10c9df3f658e@eircom.net>, 
steveo@eircom.net says...
> 
> On Thu, 26 May 2016 07:07:25 -0400
> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > In article <20160525093709.101663bfa7590569180382ec@eircom.net>, 
> > steveo@eircom.net says...
> > > 
> > > On Wed, 25 May 2016 09:39:09 +0200
> > > Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > In article <20160525074241.4a4fb3a4c269da21e1145157@eircom.net>,
> > > > Ahem A Rivet's Shot  <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> > > > >On Wed, 25 May 2016 06:56:06 BST
> > > > >Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> in 665169 20160524 190052 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >> >On 2016-05-22, J. Clarke <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >> In article
> > > > >> >> <0c7d2fa2-021e-4ae1-b6d6-bc352dfa2a76@googlegroups.com>,
> > > > >> >> bert.hutchings@btinternet.com says...
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >>> On Saturday, 21 May 2016 01:55:28 UTC+1, Questor  wrote:
> > > > >> >>>
> > > > >> >>>> Should high school CS coursework be permitted as a substitute
> > > > >> >>>> for mathematics in college entrance requirements?  Discuss.
> > > > >> >>>
> > > > >> >>> People who know something about CS, but not very much, usually
> > > > >> >>> think that CS is predominantly mathematical.  People who know
> > > > >> >>> rather more are aware that CS skills are much more akin to
> > > > >> >>> language skills (especially classical) than to math skills.
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >> And anybody who has had to debug someone else's code knows that
> > > > >> >> there's also a strong dose of detective skills.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >That's not CS, that's the real world.  Different universes.
> > > > >> 
> > > > >> See how a plumber or carpenter gets on debugging code!
> > > > >
> > > > >	Probably not too well, they don't deal with complex systems,
> > > > >	you'll
> > > > >do better with just about any kind of engineer - which is why so
> > > > >many of them were able to become programmers during the 80s and 90s.
> > > > 
> > > > All the normal craftspeople/builders (plumbers,electricians,carpenters
> > > > etc) are taught to build to code and get it right the first time.
> > > > This is such an ingrained part of their training that they are quite
> > > > alien to the art of debugging. There aren't supposed to be bugs there
> > > > at all.
> > > 
> > > 	Up to a point, the plumber who did the first fix on our house
> > > vanished with the job not quite complete (and without collecting his
> > > pay). Enough was done that we didn't need to hold anything up there was
> > > just more crawlspace work left than there should have been.
> > > 
> > > 	The fun started when we came to the second fix, and the new
> > > plumber and I spent a happy few hours working out exactly what was
> > > connected to what and how it had all been intended to be used, this
> > > after he had wrapped his head around the thermal store tank being
> > > plumbed ass-backwards to a normal hot water tank.
> > 
> > And now imagine that for a hundred-story building.
> 
> 	For anything even remotely approaching that scale there will be
> detailed plans of exactly where every pipe and wire goes and what it
> carries.
> 
> >  "Plumbers and 
> > electricians don't deal with complex systems".  Yeah.  Right.  Anybody 
> > who thinks that has never seen a big wiring closet.
> 
> 	The people who designed the layout for wiring, plumbing and other
> services had to deal with a complex system and its failure modes. The
> plumbers and electricians who work on it are expected to be able to just
> follow the documentation.

That's assuming they went in when the building was built.  There are 
hundred story buildings out there that long predate structured cabling.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#164047

FromDave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com>
Date2016-05-26 19:17 -0500
Message-ID<ni83hl$j3i$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#164011
On 5/26/2016 8:02 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Thu, 26 May 2016 07:07:25 -0400
> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <20160525093709.101663bfa7590569180382ec@eircom.net>,
>> steveo@eircom.net says...
>>>
>>> On Wed, 25 May 2016 09:39:09 +0200
>>> Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article <20160525074241.4a4fb3a4c269da21e1145157@eircom.net>,
>>>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot  <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2016 06:56:06 BST
>>>>> Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> in 665169 20160524 190052 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2016-05-22, J. Clarke <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In article
>>>>>>>> <0c7d2fa2-021e-4ae1-b6d6-bc352dfa2a76@googlegroups.com>,
>>>>>>>> bert.hutchings@btinternet.com says...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, 21 May 2016 01:55:28 UTC+1, Questor  wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Should high school CS coursework be permitted as a substitute
>>>>>>>>>> for mathematics in college entrance requirements?  Discuss.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> People who know something about CS, but not very much, usually
>>>>>>>>> think that CS is predominantly mathematical.  People who know
>>>>>>>>> rather more are aware that CS skills are much more akin to
>>>>>>>>> language skills (especially classical) than to math skills.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And anybody who has had to debug someone else's code knows that
>>>>>>>> there's also a strong dose of detective skills.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's not CS, that's the real world.  Different universes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> See how a plumber or carpenter gets on debugging code!
>>>>>
>>>>> 	Probably not too well, they don't deal with complex systems,
>>>>> 	you'll
>>>>> do better with just about any kind of engineer - which is why so
>>>>> many of them were able to become programmers during the 80s and 90s.
>>>>
>>>> All the normal craftspeople/builders (plumbers,electricians,carpenters
>>>> etc) are taught to build to code and get it right the first time.
>>>> This is such an ingrained part of their training that they are quite
>>>> alien to the art of debugging. There aren't supposed to be bugs there
>>>> at all.
>>>
>>> 	Up to a point, the plumber who did the first fix on our house
>>> vanished with the job not quite complete (and without collecting his
>>> pay). Enough was done that we didn't need to hold anything up there was
>>> just more crawlspace work left than there should have been.
>>>
>>> 	The fun started when we came to the second fix, and the new
>>> plumber and I spent a happy few hours working out exactly what was
>>> connected to what and how it had all been intended to be used, this
>>> after he had wrapped his head around the thermal store tank being
>>> plumbed ass-backwards to a normal hot water tank.
>>
>> And now imagine that for a hundred-story building.
>
> 	For anything even remotely approaching that scale there will be
> detailed plans of exactly where every pipe and wire goes and what it
> carries.
>
>>  "Plumbers and
>> electricians don't deal with complex systems".  Yeah.  Right.  Anybody
>> who thinks that has never seen a big wiring closet.
>
> 	The people who designed the layout for wiring, plumbing and other
> services had to deal with a complex system and its failure modes. The
> plumbers and electricians who work on it are expected to be able to just
> follow the documentation.
>
Whatever is "expected", the carpenters and plumbers and electricians 
will often find screwups by the architect. If they're being treated 
respectfully, they may even point the problems out (and maybe offer 
solutions) before the expense gets too great.

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#164054

FromPeter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
Date2016-05-27 06:56 -0400
Message-ID<2107322220.486039256.031346.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#164047
Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> wrote:
> On 5/26/2016 8:02 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> On Thu, 26 May 2016 07:07:25 -0400
>> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> In article <20160525093709.101663bfa7590569180382ec@eircom.net>,
>>> steveo@eircom.net says...
>>>> 
>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2016 09:39:09 +0200
>>>> Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> In article <20160525074241.4a4fb3a4c269da21e1145157@eircom.net>,
>>>>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot  <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2016 06:56:06 BST
>>>>>> Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> in 665169 20160524 190052 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2016-05-22, J. Clarke <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> In article
>>>>>>>>> <0c7d2fa2-021e-4ae1-b6d6-bc352dfa2a76@googlegroups.com>,
>>>>>>>>> bert.hutchings@btinternet.com says...
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, 21 May 2016 01:55:28 UTC+1, Questor  wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Should high school CS coursework be permitted as a substitute
>>>>>>>>>>> for mathematics in college entrance requirements?  Discuss.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> People who know something about CS, but not very much, usually
>>>>>>>>>> think that CS is predominantly mathematical.  People who know
>>>>>>>>>> rather more are aware that CS skills are much more akin to
>>>>>>>>>> language skills (especially classical) than to math skills.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> And anybody who has had to debug someone else's code knows that
>>>>>>>>> there's also a strong dose of detective skills.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> That's not CS, that's the real world.  Different universes.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> See how a plumber or carpenter gets on debugging code!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Probably not too well, they don't deal with complex systems,
>>>>>> you'll
>>>>>> do better with just about any kind of engineer - which is why so
>>>>>> many of them were able to become programmers during the 80s and 90s.
>>>>> 
>>>>> All the normal craftspeople/builders (plumbers,electricians,carpenters
>>>>> etc) are taught to build to code and get it right the first time.
>>>>> This is such an ingrained part of their training that they are quite
>>>>> alien to the art of debugging. There aren't supposed to be bugs there
>>>>> at all.
>>>> 
>>>> Up to a point, the plumber who did the first fix on our house
>>>> vanished with the job not quite complete (and without collecting his
>>>> pay). Enough was done that we didn't need to hold anything up there was
>>>> just more crawlspace work left than there should have been.
>>>> 
>>>> The fun started when we came to the second fix, and the new
>>>> plumber and I spent a happy few hours working out exactly what was
>>>> connected to what and how it had all been intended to be used, this
>>>> after he had wrapped his head around the thermal store tank being
>>>> plumbed ass-backwards to a normal hot water tank.
>>> 
>>> And now imagine that for a hundred-story building.
>> 
>> For anything even remotely approaching that scale there will be
>> detailed plans of exactly where every pipe and wire goes and what it
>> carries.
>> 
>>> "Plumbers and
>>> electricians don't deal with complex systems".  Yeah.  Right.  Anybody
>>> who thinks that has never seen a big wiring closet.
>> 
>> The people who designed the layout for wiring, plumbing and other
>> services had to deal with a complex system and its failure modes. The
>> plumbers and electricians who work on it are expected to be able to just
>> follow the documentation.
>> 
> Whatever is "expected", the carpenters and plumbers and electricians 
> will often find screwups by the architect. If they're being treated 
> respectfully, they may even point the problems out (and maybe offer 
> solutions) before the expense gets too great.
> 

Since the brown stuff always runs downhill they might better try to get it
changed.  If they don't somehow the architect will find a way to blame
them.  Some will quit if they can't have changes made, since their
reputation would take a hit.

-- 
Pete

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#163961

FromJimP <solosam90@gmail.com>
Date2016-05-25 07:26 -0500
Message-ID<5e6bkb12kil0l60kpmtdvcf4cm674eruqe@4ax.com>
In reply to#163956
On Wed, 25 May 2016 09:39:09 +0200, Morten Reistad
<first@last.name.invalid> wrote:

>In article <20160525074241.4a4fb3a4c269da21e1145157@eircom.net>,
>Ahem A Rivet's Shot  <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>On Wed, 25 May 2016 06:56:06 BST
>>Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> wrote:
>>
>>> in 665169 20160524 190052 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>> >On 2016-05-22, J. Clarke <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> In article <0c7d2fa2-021e-4ae1-b6d6-bc352dfa2a76@googlegroups.com>,
>>> >> bert.hutchings@btinternet.com says...
>>> >>
>>> >>> On Saturday, 21 May 2016 01:55:28 UTC+1, Questor  wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>> Should high school CS coursework be permitted as a substitute
>>> >>>> for mathematics in college entrance requirements?  Discuss.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> People who know something about CS, but not very much, usually
>>> >>> think that CS is predominantly mathematical.  People who know
>>> >>> rather more are aware that CS skills are much more akin to
>>> >>> language skills (especially classical) than to math skills.
>>> >>
>>> >> And anybody who has had to debug someone else's code knows that there's
>>> >> also a strong dose of detective skills.
>>> >
>>> >That's not CS, that's the real world.  Different universes.
>>> 
>>> See how a plumber or carpenter gets on debugging code!
>>
>>	Probably not too well, they don't deal with complex systems, you'll
>>do better with just about any kind of engineer - which is why so many of
>>them were able to become programmers during the 80s and 90s.
>
>All the normal craftspeople/builders (plumbers,electricians,carpenters etc)
>are taught to build to code and get it right the first time. This is such
>an ingrained part of their training that they are quite alien to the art
>of debugging. There aren't supposed to be bugs there at all.
>
>-- mrr
>

Well, I've seen shows on Home and Garden TV and DIY tv that shows some
shoddy work is being done out there on houses.

-- 
JimP.

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#163964

FromMorten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid>
Date2016-05-25 14:40 +0200
Message-ID<13jg1d-7a4.ln1@sambook.reistad.name>
In reply to#163961
In article <5e6bkb12kil0l60kpmtdvcf4cm674eruqe@4ax.com>,
JimP  <solosam90@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 25 May 2016 09:39:09 +0200, Morten Reistad
><first@last.name.invalid> wrote:
>
>>In article <20160525074241.4a4fb3a4c269da21e1145157@eircom.net>,
>>Ahem A Rivet's Shot  <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>>On Wed, 25 May 2016 06:56:06 BST
>>>Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> in 665169 20160524 190052 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>>> >On 2016-05-22, J. Clarke <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> In article <0c7d2fa2-021e-4ae1-b6d6-bc352dfa2a76@googlegroups.com>,
>>>> >> bert.hutchings@btinternet.com says...
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> On Saturday, 21 May 2016 01:55:28 UTC+1, Questor  wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> Should high school CS coursework be permitted as a substitute
>>>> >>>> for mathematics in college entrance requirements?  Discuss.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> People who know something about CS, but not very much, usually
>>>> >>> think that CS is predominantly mathematical.  People who know
>>>> >>> rather more are aware that CS skills are much more akin to
>>>> >>> language skills (especially classical) than to math skills.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> And anybody who has had to debug someone else's code knows that there's
>>>> >> also a strong dose of detective skills.
>>>> >
>>>> >That's not CS, that's the real world.  Different universes.
>>>> 
>>>> See how a plumber or carpenter gets on debugging code!
>>>
>>>	Probably not too well, they don't deal with complex systems, you'll
>>>do better with just about any kind of engineer - which is why so many of
>>>them were able to become programmers during the 80s and 90s.
>>
>>All the normal craftspeople/builders (plumbers,electricians,carpenters etc)
>>are taught to build to code and get it right the first time. This is such
>>an ingrained part of their training that they are quite alien to the art
>>of debugging. There aren't supposed to be bugs there at all.
>>
>>-- mrr
>>
>
>Well, I've seen shows on Home and Garden TV and DIY tv that shows some
>shoddy work is being done out there on houses.

Sure. That people are trained to work to code does not mean that they
actually do that when let out on their own. 

I was just pointing at the feedback they receive through training; either
on schoolbenches or in on-the-job practice. It is all completely devoid
of debugging, except for using wirefinders etc. to find pipes and wires
and similar post-fact documentation work. No training in actually finding
bugs in complex systems.

-- mrr

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