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History--did relay logic (e.g. crossbar switch) need air conditioning?

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  History--did relay logic (e.g. crossbar switch) need air conditioning? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-12-04 19:44 -0800
    Re: History--did relay logic (e.g. crossbar switch) need air conditioning? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-12-04 22:19 -0800
    Re: History--did relay logic (e.g. crossbar switch) need air conditioning? Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> - 2015-12-05 13:27 -0600
    Re: History--did relay logic (e.g. crossbar switch) need air conditioning? jhhaynes@earthlink.net - 2015-12-07 13:41 -0800
      Re: History--did relay logic (e.g. crossbar switch) need air conditioning? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-12-07 17:58 -0800
        Re: History--did relay logic (e.g. crossbar switch) need air conditioning? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2015-12-07 21:31 -0600
          Re: History--did relay logic (e.g. crossbar switch) need air conditioning? Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2015-12-07 23:27 -0600
            Re: History--did relay logic (e.g. crossbar switch) need air conditioning? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-12-07 22:12 -0800
              Re: History--did relay logic (e.g. crossbar switch) need air conditioning? "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-12-08 07:24 -0600
                Re: History--did relay logic (e.g. crossbar switch) need air conditioning? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-12-08 14:01 +0000
              Re: History--did relay logic (e.g. crossbar switch) need air conditioning? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-12-08 20:21 +0000
                Re: History--did relay logic (e.g. crossbar switch) need air conditioning? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-12-08 12:40 -0800
                  Re: History--did relay logic (e.g. crossbar switch) need air conditioning? Lawrence Statton <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2015-12-08 15:31 -0600
                  Re: History--did relay logic (e.g. crossbar switch) need air conditioning? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-12-09 01:04 +0000
                  Re: History--did relay logic (e.g. crossbar switch) need air conditioning? Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2015-12-08 21:23 -0600
                    Re: History--did relay logic (e.g. crossbar switch) need air conditioning? Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> - 2015-12-08 22:40 -0400
                      Re: History--did relay logic (e.g. crossbar switch) need air conditioning? Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2015-12-09 00:46 -0600
                        Re: History--did relay logic (e.g. crossbar switch) need air conditioning? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-09 07:04 +0000
                      Re: History--did relay logic (e.g. crossbar switch) need air conditioning? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-12-09 09:15 +0000
                    Re: History--did relay logic (e.g. crossbar switch) need air conditioning? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-12-09 18:27 +0000
                      Re: History--did relay logic (e.g. crossbar switch) need air conditioning? "Ranger" <r5432@gmail.com> - 2015-12-10 15:39 +1100
                    Re: History--did relay logic (e.g. crossbar switch) need air conditioning? "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-12-10 15:35 +1100
                Re: History--did relay logic (e.g. crossbar switch) need air conditioning? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-09 06:59 +0000
                Re: History--did relay logic (e.g. crossbar switch) need air conditioning? Bernd Felsche <berfel@innovative.iinet.net.au> - 2015-12-09 23:47 +0800
                  Re: History--did relay logic (e.g. crossbar switch) need air conditioning? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-12-09 17:20 +0000
                    Re: History--did relay logic (e.g. crossbar switch) need air conditioning? Michael LeVine <mlevinespmfltr@redshift.com> - 2015-12-09 10:14 -0800
                    Re: History--did relay logic (e.g. crossbar switch) need air conditioning? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-12-09 10:21 -0800
                      Re: History--did relay logic (e.g. crossbar switch) need air conditioning? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-12-09 18:47 +0000
                        Re: History--did relay logic (e.g. crossbar switch) need air conditioning? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-12-09 21:33 +0100
                      Re: History--did relay logic (e.g. crossbar switch) need air conditioning? Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2015-12-11 16:56 -0600
                    Re: History--did relay logic (e.g. crossbar switch) need air conditioning? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-12-09 18:27 +0000
                  Re: History--did relay logic (e.g. crossbar switch) need air conditioning? mausg@mail.com - 2015-12-09 20:47 +0000
                    Re: History--did relay logic (e.g. crossbar switch) need air conditioning? "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-12-09 17:01 -0600
                      Re: History--did relay logic (e.g. crossbar switch) need air conditioning? mausg@mail.com - 2015-12-10 10:48 +0000
                    Re: History--did relay logic (e.g. crossbar switch) need air conditioning? Bernd Felsche <berfel@innovative.iinet.net.au> - 2015-12-10 10:52 +0800
                    Re: History--did relay logic (e.g. crossbar switch) need air conditioning? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-12-10 14:15 +0000
                      Re: History--did relay logic (e.g. crossbar switch) need air conditioning? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2015-12-10 10:02 -0800
                      Re: History--did relay logic (e.g. crossbar switch) need air conditioning? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-12-10 10:17 -0800
                  Re: History--did relay logic (e.g. crossbar switch) need air conditioning? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-12-09 13:10 -0800
                    Re: History--did relay logic (e.g. crossbar switch) need air conditioning? Bernd Felsche <berfel@innovative.iinet.net.au> - 2015-12-10 11:22 +0800
                      Re: History--did relay logic (e.g. crossbar switch) need air conditioning? mausg@mail.com - 2015-12-10 10:53 +0000
                        Re: History--did relay logic (e.g. crossbar switch) need air conditioning? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2015-12-10 17:54 -0600
                  Re: History--did relay logic (e.g. crossbar switch) need air conditioning? Lawrence Statton <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2015-12-09 17:17 -0600
            Re: History--did relay logic (e.g. crossbar switch) need air conditioning? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2015-12-08 10:03 -0600
              Re: History--did relay logic (e.g. crossbar switch) need air conditioning? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-12-08 20:21 +0000
                Re: History--did relay logic (e.g. crossbar switch) need air conditioning? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-02 15:32 -0500
        Re: History--did relay logic (e.g. crossbar switch) need air conditioning? Lon <lon.stowell@comcast.net> - 2015-12-13 12:58 -0700

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#154940

"Charlie Gibbs" <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote in message 
news:n49rpm2ai2@news3.newsguy.com...
> On 2015-12-09, Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> wrote:
>
>> (IMHO neither "dimmable" CFLs nor LEDs work very well).
>
> Recently I went to a lighting supplier for some other things,
> and while there I played with one of their LED dimmer demo units.
> I managed to get it to flicker.  Looks like I'll be staying with
> my halogens for a while longer, at least on dimmed circuits.
>
> I am replacing our ubiquitous PAR20 halogens with LEDs on non-dimmed
> circuits.  Even more beneficial than the reduction of per-fixture
> power from 50 watts to 7 is the fact that the LEDs run cool; the
> halogens run so hot that they've melted plastic parts in some of
> the fixtures, and occasionally one will unsolder its internal wiring.

> CFLs are a non-starter.  I have a couple but have relegated them
> to outdoor use; I find their light to be too dreadful to use indoors.

I actually prefer CFLs for the bed head light, mainly because they
come on less abruptly which is handy when turning the light on in
the dark in the morning etc. Don’t find the color to be a problem. 

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#154939

"Dave Garland" <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> wrote in message 
news:n486ph$m0v$1@dont-email.me...
> On 12/8/2015 2:40 PM, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, December 8, 2015 at 3:22:10 PM UTC-5, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>>> Propane fridges were popular for trailers and RVs (and might still
>>> be for all I know).  I still find this paradoxical.
>>
>> I don't know the technology, but trailers used to haul refrigerated
>> goods now have a self-powered unit on them to provide cooling.
>> Maybe it's a tiny gas turbine to run the a/c compressor, but I'm
>> not sure.
>>
>>
>>>> In the 1960s, apparently the price of a window a/c unit came
>>>> down enough that lots of people and small stores got them.
>>>> But often house wiring had to be upgraded 'cause those things
>>>> used a lot of power.
>>>
>>> And that became a whole new problem...
>>
>> IIRC, the houses on our block had only 60 amp service when built
>> (stove, water, heat, dryer were all gas).  Without a/c, that
>> was adequate for lighting, some appliances, TV, etc.  Each room
>> had one 15 amp outlet, on circuits shared with other rooms.
>> there was no dishwasher or disposal.
>>
>> The ktichen light was three 20 watt fluorescent lamps.
>>
>> The dining room chandiler was quite bright, with five lamps.
>> I think we put in 40W bulbs, that was plenty.  (Or, we
>> might have used 3 60W bulbs and left two dark.)
>>
>> When people got an early a/c, it was 110V and 15 amp, so nothing
>> else could be used on that particular circuit, and things
>> like toasters couldn't be used.
>>
>> Later a/c units ran on 220V, but that required a 220V outlet,
>> which had to be installed.
>>
>> The power company pushed people to upgrade to "100 amp" service,
>> and many did.  It was nicer in that fuses didn't have to be
>> purchased and replaced and people could run their a/c as they
>> needed, but it was pretty expensive. Today it would be a must have,
>> as people would probably have more than one window unit,
>> plus a computer, more TV sets, more appliances, etc.
>>
>> Heck, one 15 amp outlet per room probably would be inadequate
>> today and the whole house would need rewiring.  Also, 60 year
>> old wiring probably has bad insulation, though I think back
>> then they used the cables with the metal cladding.
>
> 60 years ago was 1955. They had Romex wiring, IIRC plastic insulation
> on the wires, some sort of composite fibrous (paper?) cable sleeve.
> I'm not sure what you're thinking about with the "metal cladding",

They still have metal clad cable now, used where there is risk of damage
because its exposed on the walls etc. Forget what they call it there.

> though conduit was (and still is) used where mechanical
> protection is required, and there is flexible conduit made
> out of helical metal ("greenfield" or "armored cable").

Metal clad cable is in fact much more commonly used there now.

> My house was built before electricity (there are gas jets in the walls
> for lamps). The wiring was probably done in the 1920s or 1930s, and
> the remaining original parts is individual lengths of wire (no cable)
> insulated with some sort of impregnated fabric (and now very brittle)
> material and fabric sleeves, soldered splices wrapped with friction
> tape. Not knob & tube (wires run between ceramic insulators, and with
> ceramic tubes where they went through surfaces), another old technique.

> But frankly, other than the kitchen (fridge and sometimes one electric
> cooking device) and pantry (microwave, toaster, coffeemaker, toaster
> oven, rice cooker, don't use more than one at a time), there's no room
> that would need 15 amps (the furnace blower and the washing machine
> would be the only large consumers).

I often use more than one 2.5KW fan heater
in a room for a short time in winter.

> I didn't choose to live in a climate that required A/C
> (I have a window unit, but often don't get around to
> putting it in), and today's computers and TVs don't pull
> very much power. Most of the lighting is CFL or LED,
> aside from places where the light might only be "on"
> for 2 minutes (and LEDs are getting cheap enough for
> those) or where actual dimming (or other triac control,
> like photocell or solid-state timer) might be important
> (IMHO neither "dimmable" CFLs nor LEDs work very well).

> I need (and have) more than one outlet per room, but that's what power
> strips are for. All those wall warts don't add up to a lot of amps, 
> though.
 

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#154890

On 08/12/2015 20:21, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
{snip}

>> I don't know the technology, but steam and natural gas can somehow
>> >be used to create cooling.  In the 1960s, I remember the gas works
>> >pushing people to get gas air conditioners.
> Propane fridges were popular for trailers and RVs (and might still
> be for all I know).  I still find this paradoxical.
>
Maybe but not having an electrical generator causes trailers and RVs a 
few problems.

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#154898

Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>On 2015-12-08, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:

>> I think the old methods had merit until modern refrigerants came 
>> along.  Before Freon, I think they had to use noxious chemicals 
>> (ammonia?) in machine refrigeration.

>Ironically, Freon is now considered a noxious chemical as well.

It's noxious if you feed it into the air intake of an intenal
combustion engine. Produces phosgene gas at the exhaust.

But that's not why it was banned. It was banned due to people
jumping to conclusions; before knowing enough to be rational.

Halon was killed for the same reason.

Ammonia is back in style. Horrible stuff. 

It never went out of style in industrial plant. Did some vacation
work experience in a brewery where they pumped tons of the stuff
around the vats to keep them "cool". They opened up one of the
compressors for maintenance while I was there; which, even after
pumping down with a vac. pump; liberated enough ammonia into the
20,000 cubic metres of machine room to have me flee through the door
to the corridor. The maintenance guy had breathing apparatus.

The plant engineer informed me that they'd screwed up during
construction and used brass fittings on some of the plumbing around
the brewery. Fortunately, somebody spotted the problem before an
unexpected incident (ammonia loves copper and copper-based alloys).
Unfortunately, they weren't quite fast enough to replace all the
fittings; the last brass nuts on a flange plate which were being
replace gave way and they dropped tons of ammonia into the corridor
below the pipes. The chrome-plated door bars showed the "high-water"
mark at about waist height.

The chrome-plating process entails first plating teh steel with
copper, the nickel and finally chrome.

Chrome is, btw, now on the list of substances to be banned.
They've got a whole periodic table to get through.
-- 
/"\ Bernd Felsche - Somewhere in Western Australia
\ /  ASCII ribbon campaign | For every complex problem there is an
 X   against HTML mail     | answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.
/ \  and postings          |  --HL Mencken

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#154901

On Wed, 09 Dec 2015 23:47:03 +0800
Bernd Felsche <berfel@innovative.iinet.net.au> wrote:

> Chrome is, btw, now on the list of substances to be banned.
> They've got a whole periodic table to get through.

	Oxygen, it's dangerous stuff, just think of all the fires that
would be prevented if it were cleaned from the atmosphere.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN                                      | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

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#154904

On 2015-12-09 17:20:34 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot said:

> On Wed, 09 Dec 2015 23:47:03 +0800
> Bernd Felsche <berfel@innovative.iinet.net.au> wrote:
> 
>> Chrome is, btw, now on the list of substances to be banned.
>> They've got a whole periodic table to get through.
> 
> 	Oxygen, it's dangerous stuff, just think of all the fires that
> would be prevented if it were cleaned from the atmosphere.

Do not forget the classic DiHydrogen Monoxide
http://www.dhmo.org

-- 
Michael LeVine
mlevinespmfltr@redshift.com

Politics is the art of looking for trouble,
finding it everywhere,
diagnosing it incorrectly,
and applying the wrong remedies.
		Groucho Marx

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#154906

On Wednesday, December 9, 2015 at 12:30:02 PM UTC-5, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

> 	Oxygen, it's dangerous stuff, just think of all the fires that
> would be prevented if it were cleaned from the atmosphere.

Back in science class, they made oxygen and hydrogen by passing
electricity through water.   The teacher then took a smoldering
(no flame, just smoke) stick to both of them.  BOOM!

I remain amazed that hydrogen is used as an insulator on power plant
electric generators.  I'd think it'd be very easy in such a place for
loose spark to set it off, but apparently it's been working out very well.

Foolish question:  why do they use carbon dioxide instead of plain
air to put the fizz in soda pop?  I'd figure plain air would be a
lot cheaper.

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#154910

On 2015-12-09, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:

> On Wednesday, December 9, 2015 at 12:30:02 PM UTC-5,
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>
>> 	Oxygen, it's dangerous stuff, just think of all the fires that
>> would be prevented if it were cleaned from the atmosphere.
>
> Back in science class, they made oxygen and hydrogen by passing
> electricity through water.   The teacher then took a smoldering
> (no flame, just smoke) stick to both of them.  BOOM!

Yes, I blew up some apparatus in the high school chem lab that way.
Thank goodness for armored-glass fume hoods.

> I remain amazed that hydrogen is used as an insulator on power plant
> electric generators.  I'd think it'd be very easy in such a place for
> loose spark to set it off, but apparently it's been working out very well.

It does seem paradoxical.  But hydrogen's thermal conductivity is
very good.  The generators in a local gas-fired plant are cooled
this way.  They keep the concentration up to at least 90 or 95
percent; there's not enough oxygen to make a combustible mixture.

> Foolish question:  why do they use carbon dioxide instead of plain
> air to put the fizz in soda pop?  I'd figure plain air would be a
> lot cheaper.

I think it's because carbon dioxide is a lot more soluble in water,
especially under pressure.  (Nitrogen is bad enough; ask any scuba
diver.)

-- 
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored.  Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!

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#154918

In article <n49sv70b1s@news3.newsguy.com>,
Charlie Gibbs  <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>On 2015-12-09, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, December 9, 2015 at 12:30:02 PM UTC-5,
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>
>>> 	Oxygen, it's dangerous stuff, just think of all the fires that
>>> would be prevented if it were cleaned from the atmosphere.
>>
>> Back in science class, they made oxygen and hydrogen by passing
>> electricity through water.   The teacher then took a smoldering
>> (no flame, just smoke) stick to both of them.  BOOM!
>
>Yes, I blew up some apparatus in the high school chem lab that way.
>Thank goodness for armored-glass fume hoods.
>
>> I remain amazed that hydrogen is used as an insulator on power plant
>> electric generators.  I'd think it'd be very easy in such a place for
>> loose spark to set it off, but apparently it's been working out very well.
>
>It does seem paradoxical.  But hydrogen's thermal conductivity is
>very good.  The generators in a local gas-fired plant are cooled
>this way.  They keep the concentration up to at least 90 or 95
>percent; there's not enough oxygen to make a combustible mixture.

Just keep it away from the oxygen, and you will be fine. Modulus some 
hydride formation on some materials.
>
>> Foolish question:  why do they use carbon dioxide instead of plain
>> air to put the fizz in soda pop?  I'd figure plain air would be a
>> lot cheaper.
>
>I think it's because carbon dioxide is a lot more soluble in water,
>especially under pressure.  (Nitrogen is bad enough; ask any scuba
>diver.)

The amount of nitrogen that is dissolved is very minute. A scuba
diver can be killed by a few milligrams of nitrogen.

Carbon dioxide is far more dissolvable; making H2CO3 with water.

It also compresses a whole lot better than air. It condenses a bit
below 100 bar, and then you can store a lot more.

-- mrr

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#155078

hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:


> I remain amazed that hydrogen is used as an insulator on power plant
> electric generators.  I'd think it'd be very easy in such a place for
> loose spark to set it off, but apparently it's been working out very well.
> 
Big powerhouse alternators have a 1/4" x 2" copper bar hammered into a CNC-
milled slot in the solid rotor, which is about 18" diameter.  There are two 
of these slots, about 10 turns or so on each pole.  They run 10,000 A at 
about 100 V through this rotor winding.  So, you've got 100 V along maybe 
100 feet of solid copper bar.  Calculating the power, it is one MEGAWATT!
Now, you have to get that heat out, with no cooling channels in the rotor.  
The only cooling is the hydrogen gas at atmospheric pressure and the 
whirling of the rotor in the stator, about 190 MPH for an 18" rotor.

Then, of course, there is the iron and copper losses in the stator, too!

Hydrogen works MUCH better than Helium due to the molecular dipole being 
able to carry energy as both spin and velocity.  Helium is the next best 
thermal conductor, but hydrogen is better.  It also scrubs any oxygen from 
the alternator.  Some of these alternators use brushes to carry the rotor 
excitation, others use a brushless system, with an exciter alternator and 
rectifier on the shaft.  Our local utility seems to prefer the brush and 
slip-ring style.


> Foolish question:  why do they use carbon dioxide instead of plain
> air to put the fizz in soda pop?  I'd figure plain air would be a
> lot cheaper.

Carbon Dioxide is HUGELY soluble in water, it forms carbonic acid.  The 
sodas have to compensate for the sourness of the acid by adding a lot more 
sugar.

Jon

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#154907

On 2015-12-09, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

> On Wed, 09 Dec 2015 23:47:03 +0800
> Bernd Felsche <berfel@innovative.iinet.net.au> wrote:
>
>> Chrome is, btw, now on the list of substances to be banned.
>> They've got a whole periodic table to get through.
>
> 	Oxygen, it's dangerous stuff, just think of all the fires that
> would be prevented if it were cleaned from the atmosphere.

It's also extremely addictive.  As little as one breath can create
a life-long addiction to the gas, which invariably ends in death;
few victims survive more than 0.8 century.

(I forget where I found this, but a tip of the hat to whoever wrote it.)

-- 
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored.  Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!

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#154919

On 2015-12-09, Bernd Felsche <berfel@innovative.iinet.net.au> wrote:
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>On 2015-12-08, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>
>>> I think the old methods had merit until modern refrigerants came 
>>> along.  Before Freon, I think they had to use noxious chemicals 
>>> (ammonia?) in machine refrigeration.
>
>>Ironically, Freon is now considered a noxious chemical as well.
>
> replace gave way and they dropped tons of ammonia into the corridor
> below the pipes. The chrome-plated door bars showed the "high-water"
> mark at about waist height.
>
> The chrome-plating process entails first plating teh steel with
> copper, the nickel and finally chrome.
>
> Chrome is, btw, now on the list of substances to be banned.
> They've got a whole periodic table to get through.

there is a substance relaated to chrome used to preserve fencing posts,
 The Countess of Rosse noticed that washings form a works that used it
was killing everything on a local river, and had presige enough to get
the process stopped. Chipmaking, the type of interest to this group,
produces nasty byproducts as well.



-- 
greymaus
 .
  .
...

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#154929

<mausg@mail.com> wrote:

> On 2015-12-09, Bernd Felsche <berfel@innovative.iinet.net.au> wrote:
>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>>On 2015-12-08, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> I think the old methods had merit until modern refrigerants came
>>>> along.  Before Freon, I think they had to use noxious chemicals
>>>> (ammonia?) in machine refrigeration.
>>
>>>Ironically, Freon is now considered a noxious chemical as well.
>>
>> replace gave way and they dropped tons of ammonia into the corridor
>> below the pipes. The chrome-plated door bars showed the "high-water"
>> mark at about waist height.
>>
>> The chrome-plating process entails first plating teh steel with
>> copper, the nickel and finally chrome.
>>
>> Chrome is, btw, now on the list of substances to be banned.
>> They've got a whole periodic table to get through.
>
> there is a substance relaated to chrome used to preserve fencing posts,
> The Countess of Rosse noticed that washings form a works that used it
> was killing everything on a local river, and had presige enough to get
> the process stopped. Chipmaking, the type of interest to this group,
> produces nasty byproducts as well.

We had Tricky in the labs and used it as a general solvent and cleaner, much 
like alcohol, and used it for years before learning it was kind of nasty.

Tricky is street talk for trichloroethylene.

Carbon tetrachloride used to be the basis for a common hand held fire 
extinguisher which I once used to put out a fire.  Then I learned exposure 
effects were cumulative and it was hazardous. 

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#154953

On 2015-12-09, Osmium <r124c4u102@comcast.net> wrote:
><mausg@mail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2015-12-09, Bernd Felsche <berfel@innovative.iinet.net.au> wrote:
>>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>>>On 2015-12-08, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> I think the old methods had merit until modern refrigerants came
>>>>> along.  Before Freon, I think they had to use noxious chemicals
>>>>> (ammonia?) in machine refrigeration.
>>>
>>>>Ironically, Freon is now considered a noxious chemical as well.
>>>
>>> replace gave way and they dropped tons of ammonia into the corridor
>>> below the pipes. The chrome-plated door bars showed the "high-water"
>>> mark at about waist height.
>>>
>>> The chrome-plating process entails first plating teh steel with
>>> copper, the nickel and finally chrome.
>>>
>>> Chrome is, btw, now on the list of substances to be banned.
>>> They've got a whole periodic table to get through.
>>
>> there is a substance relaated to chrome used to preserve fencing posts,
>> The Countess of Rosse noticed that washings form a works that used it
>> was killing everything on a local river, and had presige enough to get
>> the process stopped. Chipmaking, the type of interest to this group,
>> produces nasty byproducts as well.
>
> We had Tricky in the labs and used it as a general solvent and cleaner, much 
> like alcohol, and used it for years before learning it was kind of nasty.
>
> Tricky is street talk for trichloroethylene.
>
> Carbon tetrachloride used to be the basis for a common hand held fire 
> extinguisher which I once used to put out a fire.  Then I learned exposure 
> effects were cumulative and it was hazardous. 
>

We used it a lot when I was young, and farming, for various animal ailments.



-- 
greymaus
 .
  .
...

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#154935

mausg@mail.com wrote:
>On 2015-12-09, Bernd Felsche <berfel@innovative.iinet.net.au> wrote:
>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>>On 2015-12-08, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> I think the old methods had merit until modern refrigerants came 
>>>> along.  Before Freon, I think they had to use noxious chemicals 
>>>> (ammonia?) in machine refrigeration.
>>
>>>Ironically, Freon is now considered a noxious chemical as well.
>>
>> replace gave way and they dropped tons of ammonia into the corridor
>> below the pipes. The chrome-plated door bars showed the "high-water"
>> mark at about waist height.
>>
>> The chrome-plating process entails first plating teh steel with
>> copper, the nickel and finally chrome.

>> Chrome is, btw, now on the list of substances to be banned.
>> They've got a whole periodic table to get through.

>there is a substance relaated to chrome used to preserve fencing posts,

"CCA" - not much different to CCNA ;-)

> The Countess of Rosse noticed that washings form a works that used it
>was killing everything on a local river, and had presige enough to get
>the process stopped. Chipmaking, the type of interest to this group,
>produces nasty byproducts as well.

Silane is a big worry. Some of the raw materials; notably heavy
metals uses for doping are not easy to contain given the relatively
low concentrations and the high toxicity.

Of course it takes a lot of energy to make chip-quality wafers;
around 500 MJ/kg (mostly from electrical power) allowing for sawing,
etc.  Generating electricity for silicon smelting, refining, etc is
messy in at least one way for any generating technology.

The art is in determining which methods are least messy (or
most ameliorable) and still affordable. Then you have to overcome
superstitions to have them implemented and managed appropriately.
-- 
/"\ Bernd Felsche - Somewhere in Western Australia
\ /  ASCII ribbon campaign | For every complex problem there is an
 X   against HTML mail     | answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.
/ \  and postings          |  --HL Mencken

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#154958

mausg@mail.com writes:
> Chipmaking, the type of interest to this group,
>produces nasty byproducts as well.

Something we, here in the Silicon Valley, are quite
aware of :-(.   They finally cleaned up the superfund
site on Bernal (Fairchild/Nat Semi, IIRC); but there is still
plenty of groundwater remediation occuring throughout
the valley.

The site is now a shopping center anchored by a grocery store.

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/The-valley-s-toxic-history-IBM-trial-is-latest-2826844.php

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#154965

scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
> Something we, here in the Silicon Valley, are quite aware of :-(.
> They finally cleaned up the superfund site on Bernal (Fairchild/Nat
> Semi, IIRC); but there is still plenty of groundwater remediation
> occuring throughout the valley.

one of my co-workers that lived south of the fairchild bldg (affected by
fairchild ground water contamination) ... came down with cancer
attributed to that contamination.

shortly after new grocery store went in (where fairchild bldg use to
be). I was in the store and noticed that the ATM machine was open'ed and
being worked on. I went over and started talking to the person ... this
was after nations had taken over bank of america and changed its name to
bank of america. He said that nations was letting lots of the bank of
america people go. He said that he was assigned to go through all the
bank of america ATM machines (in the local area) and replace the
advanced, state-of-the-art, intrusion detection with some hack that
nations used (so all nationsbank ATM machines would be the same) ...
and when he was done, he would be let go to.

It was more than academic interest ... I was on financial industry
standard committees working on security features ... topic drift
... one of the standards
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/x959.html#x959
and some of the technology
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/x959.html#aads

tandem had bought one of ATM machine technology providers (Atalla, in
part because tandem machines were extensively used in the
ATM/cashmachine networks and tandem had been bought by compaq) ... old
post referencing workshop that compaq/tandem/atalla had sponsored for
us:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay3.htm#riskm

report on AADS pilot done by NACHA and one of the ATM networks (gone
404, but lives on at wayback machine, aka 23July2001))
http://web.archive.org/web/20070706004855/http://internetcouncil.nacha.org/News/news.html

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

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#154967

On Thursday, December 10, 2015 at 9:15:31 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:

> Something we, here in the Silicon Valley, are quite
> aware of :-(.   They finally cleaned up the superfund
> site on Bernal (Fairchild/Nat Semi, IIRC); but there is still
> plenty of groundwater remediation occuring throughout
> the valley.

Today, we lament the loss of steel companies and the many high-
paying jobs they offered, but making steel is a dirty business.
I think the chief pollutant is the waste acids from the 'pickling'
treatment of steel slabs to remove scale.  The air pollution
is nasty, too.

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#154921

On Wednesday, December 9, 2015 at 10:48:09 AM UTC-5, Bernd Felsche wrote:
> Chrome is, btw, now on the list of substances to be banned.
> They've got a whole periodic table to get through.

Tough to say what is good and what is bad.

At one time we had terrible industrial pollution in the US, but
it's been cleaned up.

In contrast, right now in China they're dealing with very nasty air
pollution.

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#154936

hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>Bernd Felsche wrote:
>> Chrome is, btw, now on the list of substances to be banned.
>> They've got a whole periodic table to get through.

>Tough to say what is good and what is bad.

>At one time we had terrible industrial pollution in the US, but
>it's been cleaned up.

>In contrast, right now in China they're dealing with very nasty air
>pollution.

IIRC, about half of the particulate pollution in China's cities is
from construction. Come of it building nuclear power plants; and a
bit more from building newer coal-fired power stations that burn
more cleanly and efficiently than the dozens of smaller stations
that each replaced.

Man-made pollution in China is being reduced in the long run. But
people are still cooking and heating with poorly controlled gas
fires; if not coal; which is bad when population density is very
high.

Half of the rest is "natural" with dust/sand blown in from the
deserts.

Nature (weather conditions) often makes man-made pollution worse.
Either by allowing it to accummulate and/or by adding e.g. humidity
that contributes to the actual making of smog.
-- 
/"\ Bernd Felsche - Somewhere in Western Australia
\ /  ASCII ribbon campaign | For every complex problem there is an
 X   against HTML mail     | answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.
/ \  and postings          |  --HL Mencken

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