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Groups > alt.folklore.computers > #153134 > unrolled thread
| Started by | "Bill Cunningham" <nospam@nspam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2015-10-20 17:47 -0400 |
| Last post | 2015-12-22 11:43 -0800 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 115 — 29 participants |
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high level language idea "Bill Cunningham" <nospam@nspam.invalid> - 2015-10-20 17:47 -0400
Re: high level language idea Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-21 01:09 +0000
Re: high level language idea "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2015-10-21 14:44 -0500
Re: high level language idea hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-21 13:15 -0700
Re: high level language idea davidmylastname@acm.org (David Griffith) - 2015-10-21 01:16 +0000
Re: high level language idea "Bill Cunningham" <nospam@nspam.invalid> - 2015-10-21 14:26 -0400
Re: high level language idea hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-21 12:13 -0700
Re: high level language idea "Bill Cunningham" <nospam@nspam.invalid> - 2015-10-21 15:23 -0400
Re: high level language idea bert <bert.hutchings@btinternet.com> - 2015-10-21 03:53 -0700
Re: high level language idea rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) - 2015-10-21 13:47 +0000
Re: high level language idea "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2015-10-21 14:58 +0100
Re: high level language idea Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2015-10-21 10:34 -0400
Re: high level language idea Bob Eager <news0005@eager.cx> - 2015-10-21 16:43 +0000
Re: high level language idea rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) - 2015-10-21 14:46 +0000
Re: high level language idea "Bill Cunningham" <nospam@nspam.invalid> - 2015-10-21 14:29 -0400
Re: high level language idea Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2015-10-21 14:19 -0500
Re: high level language idea Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2015-10-21 15:24 -0400
Re: high level language idea Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2015-10-22 14:13 -0500
Re: high level language idea "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-10-23 09:55 -0500
Re: high level language idea Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2015-10-23 11:42 -0400
Re: high level language idea "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-10-23 11:48 -0500
Re: high level language idea hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-23 10:47 -0700
Re: high level language idea Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> - 2015-10-24 21:24 -0500
Re: high level language idea Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> - 2015-10-24 21:14 -0500
Re: high level language idea Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> - 2015-10-25 11:31 -0500
Re: high level language idea Bob Eager <news0005@eager.cx> - 2015-10-25 18:13 +0000
Re: high level language idea Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2015-10-23 11:20 -0700
Re: high level language idea hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-23 11:45 -0700
Re: high level language idea Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> - 2015-10-24 21:11 -0500
Re: high level language idea hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-27 07:40 -0700
Re: high level language idea Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2015-10-27 08:30 -0700
Re: high level language idea Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2015-10-27 09:11 -0700
Re: high level language idea Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2015-10-27 12:52 -0400
Re: high level language idea hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-27 10:22 -0700
Re: high level language idea Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2015-10-27 14:37 -0400
Re: high level language idea Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-27 19:55 +0000
Re: high level language idea hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-27 17:46 -0700
Re: high level language idea Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-28 01:22 +0000
Re: high level language idea jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-10-28 12:58 +0000
Re: high level language idea "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2015-10-28 13:59 +0000
Re: high level language idea jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-10-29 13:55 +0000
Re: high level language idea Bob Eager <news0005@eager.cx> - 2015-10-29 14:28 +0000
Re: high level language idea "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-10-30 05:06 +1100
Re: high level language idea pechter@S20.pechter.dyndns.org (William Pechter) - 2015-10-29 19:55 +0000
Re: high level language idea Lawrence Statton <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2015-10-29 14:21 -0600
Re: high level language idea pechter@S20.pechter.dyndns.org (William Pechter) - 2015-10-29 19:50 +0000
Re: high level language idea hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-28 07:33 -0700
Re: high level language idea Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-28 16:58 +0000
Re: high level language idea hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-28 10:10 -0700
Re: high level language idea Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-28 20:08 +0000
Re: high level language idea hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-28 13:58 -0700
Re: high level language idea "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2015-10-27 15:53 -0500
Re: high level language idea - TTF Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2015-10-27 17:11 -0400
Re: high level language idea - TTF scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-10-28 13:24 +0000
Re: high level language idea - TTF hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-28 07:37 -0700
Re: high level language idea - TTF Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-28 16:58 +0000
Re: high level language idea - TTF Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2015-10-28 15:10 -0400
Re: high level language idea Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-28 01:22 +0000
Re: high level language idea Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2015-10-28 08:04 -0700
Re: high level language idea Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2015-10-27 11:34 -0400
Re: high level language idea hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-27 10:14 -0700
Re: high level language idea Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2015-10-27 14:30 -0400
Re: high level language idea Bob Eager <news0005@eager.cx> - 2015-10-27 19:29 +0000
Re: high level language idea Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2015-10-27 16:57 -0400
Re: high level language idea Bob Eager <news0005@eager.cx> - 2015-10-27 21:50 +0000
Re: high level language idea Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2015-10-27 17:58 -0400
Re: high level language idea Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-10-28 09:04 +0000
Re: high level language idea "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2015-10-28 09:42 +0000
Re: high level language idea Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2015-10-28 14:55 -0400
Re: high level language idea Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2015-10-28 15:02 -0400
Re: high level language idea Bob Eager <news0005@eager.cx> - 2015-10-28 19:15 +0000
Re: high level language idea Lawrence Statton <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2015-10-28 13:25 -0600
Re: high level language idea Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2015-10-28 17:54 -0400
Re: high level language idea Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-10-28 19:19 +0000
Re: high level language idea Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-28 21:09 +0000
Re: high level language idea scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-10-28 13:36 +0000
Re: high level language idea Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2015-10-28 17:54 +0000
Re: high level language idea Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-28 20:08 +0000
Re: high level language idea "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2015-10-28 17:54 -0500
Re: high level language idea Alan Bowler <atbowler@thinkage.ca> - 2015-11-13 16:05 -0500
Re: high level language idea Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-13 17:20 -0500
Re: high level language idea Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2015-11-15 08:14 -0500
Re: high level language idea Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-27 19:55 +0000
Re: high level language idea hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-27 18:00 -0700
Re: high level language idea hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-21 12:21 -0700
Re: high level language idea "Bill Cunningham" <nospam@nspam.invalid> - 2015-10-21 15:25 -0400
Re: high level language idea "Bill Cunningham" <nospam@nspam.invalid> - 2015-10-21 17:14 -0400
Re: high level language idea jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-10-22 12:51 +0000
Re: high level language idea Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2015-10-21 17:56 -0400
Re: high level language idea Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-21 19:43 +0000
Re: high level language idea hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-21 13:09 -0700
Re: high level language idea Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-22 02:52 +0000
Re: high level language idea "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2015-10-23 16:04 -0500
Re: high level language idea Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> - 2015-10-28 20:19 -0400
Re: high level language idea hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-21 07:35 -0700
Re: high level language idea Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-21 19:43 +0000
Re: high level language idea hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-21 13:00 -0700
Re: high level language idea Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2015-10-21 13:35 -0700
Re: high level language idea hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-21 13:50 -0700
Re: high level language idea Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2015-10-21 17:56 -0400
Re: high level language idea hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-22 07:22 -0700
Re: high level language idea John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2015-10-24 00:42 +0000
Re: high level language idea hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-24 20:26 -0700
Re: high level language idea "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2015-10-25 18:36 -0500
Re: high level language idea Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2015-10-21 15:31 -0700
Re: high level language idea Alan Bowler <atbowler@thinkage.ca> - 2015-11-20 17:17 -0500
Re: high level language idea Alan Bowler <atbowler@thinkage.ca> - 2015-11-20 17:00 -0500
Re: high level language idea Bob Eager <news0005@eager.cx> - 2015-11-20 22:20 +0000
Re: high level language idea Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-21 08:35 -0500
Re: high level language idea "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2015-10-23 16:00 -0500
Re: high level language idea Bob Eager <news0005@eager.cx> - 2015-10-23 21:07 +0000
Re: high level language idea Alan Bowler <atbowler@thinkage.ca> - 2015-11-20 17:31 -0500
Re: high level language idea Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2015-11-25 11:28 -0800
Re: high level language idea Alan Bowler <atbowler@thinkage.ca> - 2015-12-22 14:00 -0500
Re: high level language idea Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2015-12-22 11:43 -0800
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| From | jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-29 13:55 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <PM0005233E6F2171E0@aca42db5.ipt.aol.com> |
| In reply to | #153440 |
gareth wrote: > "jmfbahciv" <See.above@aol.com> wrote in message > news:PM00052329FEF97EA9@aca4145e.ipt.aol.com... >> Charlie Gibbs wrote: >>> On 2015-10-28, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote: >>> >>>> On Tuesday, October 27, 2015 at 3:56:25 PM UTC-4, Charlie Gibbs wrote: >>>> >>>>> Yup. My basic rule for large files was to try never to put an >>>>> input and an output file on the same drive. Most systems I worked >>>>> on had 4 drives, so this was usually not difficult. >>>> >>>> Actually, I'm trying to remember how many disk drives we had--it may >>>> have been only one. Back then, 100 meg was a lot of space and we were >>>> a small outfit. >>> >>> I never heard of a system with less than two drives. It just wouldn't >>> be worth it. How would you do backups? (Many systems I worked on >>> didn't have tape.) >> >> <snip> >> >> Many PDP-8 and PDP-11 systems had just one disk drive. I suspect >> someone bought a KL with just the front end disk drive. ISTR a story >> about a customer bitching they had to buy the disk drive. > > The embedded PDP-11 systems that I worked on in the late 1970s didn't have > any disk drives, > just a paper tape reader & punch. No DECtapes? /BAH
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| From | Bob Eager <news0005@eager.cx> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-29 14:28 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <d9eoodFomsrU2@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #153511 |
On Thu, 29 Oct 2015 13:55:37 +0000, jmfbahciv wrote: > gareth wrote: >> "jmfbahciv" <See.above@aol.com> wrote in message >> news:PM00052329FEF97EA9@aca4145e.ipt.aol.com... >>> Charlie Gibbs wrote: >>>> On 2015-10-28, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Tuesday, October 27, 2015 at 3:56:25 PM UTC-4, Charlie Gibbs >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Yup. My basic rule for large files was to try never to put an >>>>>> input and an output file on the same drive. Most systems I worked >>>>>> on had 4 drives, so this was usually not difficult. >>>>> >>>>> Actually, I'm trying to remember how many disk drives we had--it may >>>>> have been only one. Back then, 100 meg was a lot of space and we >>>>> were a small outfit. >>>> >>>> I never heard of a system with less than two drives. It just >>>> wouldn't be worth it. How would you do backups? (Many systems I >>>> worked on didn't have tape.) >>> >>> <snip> >>> >>> Many PDP-8 and PDP-11 systems had just one disk drive. I suspect >>> someone bought a KL with just the front end disk drive. ISTR a story >>> about a customer bitching they had to buy the disk drive. >> >> The embedded PDP-11 systems that I worked on in the late 1970s didn't >> have any disk drives, >> just a paper tape reader & punch. > > No DECtapes? We had some that didn't even have paper tape. We made a boot ROM that downloaded the system over a serial line. -- Using UNIX since v6 (1975)... Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
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| From | "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-30 05:06 +1100 |
| Message-ID | <d9f5ghFg458U1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #153511 |
"jmfbahciv" <See.above@aol.com> wrote in message news:PM0005233E6F2171E0@aca42db5.ipt.aol.com... > gareth wrote: >> "jmfbahciv" <See.above@aol.com> wrote in message >> news:PM00052329FEF97EA9@aca4145e.ipt.aol.com... >>> Charlie Gibbs wrote: >>>> On 2015-10-28, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Tuesday, October 27, 2015 at 3:56:25 PM UTC-4, Charlie Gibbs wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Yup. My basic rule for large files was to try never to put an >>>>>> input and an output file on the same drive. Most systems I worked >>>>>> on had 4 drives, so this was usually not difficult. >>>>> >>>>> Actually, I'm trying to remember how many disk drives we had--it may >>>>> have been only one. Back then, 100 meg was a lot of space and we were >>>>> a small outfit. >>>> >>>> I never heard of a system with less than two drives. It just wouldn't >>>> be worth it. How would you do backups? (Many systems I worked on >>>> didn't have tape.) >>> >>> <snip> >>> >>> Many PDP-8 and PDP-11 systems had just one disk drive. I suspect >>> someone bought a KL with just the front end disk drive. ISTR a story >>> about a customer bitching they had to buy the disk drive. >> >> The embedded PDP-11 systems that I worked on in the late 1970s >> didn't have any disk drives, just a paper tape reader & punch. True of the country wide network we had that used 11s as nodes too. no disk drives, no paper tape reader or punch either, just a card reader and no punch at all. > No DECtapes? None of mine ever had any DECtapes. The 9 eventually had a 9 track mag tape. The 11s all had 8" floppys and 10" hard winchester hard drives. Some of the bigger 11s had DEC pack drives, far more had 3 party drives, and mostly 9 track mag tapes instead of DECtapes.
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| From | pechter@S20.pechter.dyndns.org (William Pechter) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-29 19:55 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <n0ttk4$osd$3@pechter.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #153540 |
In article <d9f5ghFg458U1@mid.individual.net>, Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote: > > >"jmfbahciv" <See.above@aol.com> wrote in message >news:PM0005233E6F2171E0@aca42db5.ipt.aol.com... >> gareth wrote: >>> "jmfbahciv" <See.above@aol.com> wrote in message >>> news:PM00052329FEF97EA9@aca4145e.ipt.aol.com... >>>> Charlie Gibbs wrote: >>>>> On 2015-10-28, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Tuesday, October 27, 2015 at 3:56:25 PM UTC-4, Charlie Gibbs wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Yup. My basic rule for large files was to try never to put an >>>>>>> input and an output file on the same drive. Most systems I worked >>>>>>> on had 4 drives, so this was usually not difficult. >>>>>> >>>>>> Actually, I'm trying to remember how many disk drives we had--it may >>>>>> have been only one. Back then, 100 meg was a lot of space and we were >>>>>> a small outfit. >>>>> >>>>> I never heard of a system with less than two drives. It just wouldn't >>>>> be worth it. How would you do backups? (Many systems I worked on >>>>> didn't have tape.) >>>> >>>> <snip> >>>> >>>> Many PDP-8 and PDP-11 systems had just one disk drive. I suspect >>>> someone bought a KL with just the front end disk drive. ISTR a story >>>> about a customer bitching they had to buy the disk drive. >>> >>> The embedded PDP-11 systems that I worked on in the late 1970s >>> didn't have any disk drives, just a paper tape reader & punch. > >True of the country wide network we had that used 11s >as nodes too. no disk drives, no paper tape reader or >punch either, just a card reader and no punch at all. > >> No DECtapes? > >None of mine ever had any DECtapes. The 9 eventually had >a 9 track mag tape. The 11s all had 8" floppys and 10" hard >winchester hard drives. Some of the bigger 11s had DEC >pack drives, far more had 3 party drives, and mostly 9 track >mag tapes instead of DECtapes. > > The only machines I serviced outside of DEC with DECtapes had DECtapeII ugly nasty things like the 11/44's. DECtapes were very rare in the field by 1981. Most used RX01/RX02 floppies, RL01/RL02/RK05 packs or magtapes as data transfer/load devices. More tapes after the less expensive TS11 tape disaster was released. It used a single board controller where the DEC TS03's were a bear and needed the RH. The TU10W/TE10W were slow and not too common. The TM11 controller was pretty outdated when the TS11 came out. I wonder when the blank tapes stopped being produced... Bill -- -- Digital had it then. Don't you wish you could buy it now! pechter-at-gmail.com http://xkcd.com/705/
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| From | Lawrence Statton <lawrence@senguio.mx> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-29 14:21 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <87y4el1l4b.fsf@redbull.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> |
| In reply to | #153562 |
pechter@S20.pechter.dyndns.org (William Pechter) writes: > The only machines I serviced outside of DEC with DECtapes had DECtapeII > ugly nasty things like the 11/44's. Until I got the 1091, I'd never seen a DECtape in the flesh. My 11 (an 11/55) had a ... shit ... I can't remember if it was a tape-a-saurus or not now ... a 9-track, a couple of RK05 ... the double-density non-removable variant of the RK05 (part number forgotten) and a pair of RL02. > Most used RX01/RX02 floppies, RL01/RL02/RK05 packs or magtapes as data > transfer/load devices. My pal Phil had an 11/34 with a pair of RX02 and some non-Digital hard disk. And an emulex Unibus SMD controller that I swore some night I would sneak into his house and steal. > I wonder when the blank tapes stopped being produced... According to the Wikipedia page (so, consider the source) the last manufacturer of 9-track tape stopped in 2002. When my father recently passed, I was going through some of my stuff at his house, and binned a box of 9-track tapes with "all the cool 11 and VAX stuff I had done".
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| From | pechter@S20.pechter.dyndns.org (William Pechter) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-29 19:50 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <n0ttad$osd$2@pechter.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #153436 |
In article <PM00052329FEF97EA9@aca4145e.ipt.aol.com>, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote: >Charlie Gibbs wrote: >> On 2015-10-28, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote: >> >>> On Tuesday, October 27, 2015 at 3:56:25 PM UTC-4, Charlie Gibbs wrote: >>> >>>> Yup. My basic rule for large files was to try never to put an >>>> input and an output file on the same drive. Most systems I worked >>>> on had 4 drives, so this was usually not difficult. >>> >>> Actually, I'm trying to remember how many disk drives we had--it may >>> have been only one. Back then, 100 meg was a lot of space and we were >>> a small outfit. >> >> I never heard of a system with less than two drives. It just wouldn't >> be worth it. How would you do backups? (Many systems I worked on >> didn't have tape.) > ><snip> > >Many PDP-8 and PDP-11 systems had just one disk drive. I suspect >someone bought a KL with just the front end disk drive. ISTR a story >about a customer bitching they had to buy the disk drive. > >/BAH Very few PDP-11 systems in the field had one disk drive. Backups and of cource sysgen often required at least two. Many sites had at least smaller drives like RL02's and RK05's in addition to a single larger drive so they could build a new OS version. Many sites didn't get a tape drive and received their OS on RL or RK packs. (Common with RSX11 and RT11 machines I serviced). Some used floppy disk as data migration devices instead of tapes. Also, many used third party disks and just had one DEC disk for OS install and diags. Bill Bill required two. -- -- Digital had it then. Don't you wish you could buy it now! pechter-at-gmail.com http://xkcd.com/705/
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| From | hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-28 07:33 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <e11fa563-6308-4a66-ae02-a201676a4366@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #153423 |
On Tuesday, October 27, 2015 at 9:23:00 PM UTC-4, Charlie Gibbs wrote: > > Actually, I'm trying to remember how many disk drives we had--it may > > have been only one. Back then, 100 meg was a lot of space and we were > > a small outfit. > > I never heard of a system with less than two drives. It just wouldn't > be worth it. How would you do backups? (Many systems I worked on > didn't have tape.) We had two tape drives. They were pretty good, and were able to read tapes made from other manufacturers. They sure beat the gawdawful slow 2415 I used at my prior job. > > The operating system for the 90/30 would allow up to five jobs running > > at once. But I discovered CPU and disk contention effectively limited > > us to one job at a time. It would actually take longer to run two jobs > > side by side rather than serially. (One good thing about being small > > was that I could get the machine to myself and experiment.) > > The number of jobs was a sysgen option - you could configure as many as > seven job slots (at least in later versions of OS/3). Some cheapskates > would configure only three slots, but the job slot tables were too small > for this to justify limiting yourself that way. In my experience, three > concurrent jobs would hit the point of diminishing returns, although > this would vary according to how I/O-bound you were, how well you could > spread files across drives, and how much memory you had. (Most systems > I worked on had 192K; some people would try to cheap out - with the > encouragement of low-balling salesmen - and wound up with 128K, which > put them in a world of hurt.) I think we had 256k. Did they support 512k? I think memory had fallen in cost by then. > One irritating quirk of OS/3 was that it didn't time-slice jobs of > equal priority. If you ran a CPU-bound job against an I/O-bound one > (or your program went into a loop), the I/O-bound job would grind to > a halt. You could adjust priorities from the console to get both jobs > running smoothly, or specify priorities in JCL. This latter option > became much more practical in a later relase which let you specify > a default priority other than the lowest, which meant that you could > lower the priority of CPU-bound jobs, rather than having to modify > the JCL for every other job in the shop to increase their programs' > priority. I suppose that in a commercial environment, where most > jobs were I/O-bound, this wasn't as bad a crime as it would be in > a scientific shop, but still, it was a pain. Well, even within a commercial environment different jobs have different criticalities and I/O mixes--some are do do some hairy logic or number crunching. A well trained operator or manager should know about optimizing the mix. I left the place by the time their workload increased enough for that to be an issue. I heard after I left there was a housecleaning, and then the machine itself was replaced with a Burroughs. As mentioned, the manager didn't really understand the technical stuff that you're talking about. I think he had similar problems. I don't think Univac support to explain it was all that strong. Indeed, I sensed that Univac looked at the 90/30 as kind of 'mass market' machine, perhaps a mini-computer, where customes would get a canned hardware and software package and just make do. I don't think they were prepared for the customization needed as you describe. I remember at a Blue Bell conference, where I met other 90/30 customers, many of them seemed to be unsophisticated DP users who expected a 'plug 'n play' box. The 90/30 didn't need fancy system programmers writing their own exit routines like in a large IBM shop, but some tuning and understanding was definitely necessary if any kind of serious workload was placed on it. Heck, people doing heavy stuff on their home PC probably could use some tuning, if the operating system would allow it. At the place I worked out, I think there was an oddball division of responsibility. High people made some key decisions, then no longer had anything to do with the operation, or weren't even in the firm any longer. Indeed, I don't think it was clear to anyone what they actually wanted to accomplish on the computer, beyond generating some basic statistics. > I remember trying to copy a disk file to a tape in a shop that was > running a CPU-bound payroll program. Now I know payroll is very > important, but these guys went right over the top, doing things > like cranking the priority up as high as it would go even though > it didn't make the job run any faster. What it did do was make > my tape dump come to a halt, even though it used neglegible CPU. > When nobody was looking, I'd re-adjust the priorities - the payroll > job's tape drive would still write its usual block every 5 seconds > (I said it was CPU-bound), while my tape drive would run full bore. > Naturally, once the staff came back and saw this, they immediately > reshuffled the priorities so my job stopped. Grrr... This kind of thing wasn't uncommon in the DP world years ago. There were a lot of poorly trained managers and supervised who had authority but inadequate understanding. Unfortunately, some of those types were just plain arrogant SOB's who ordered other people around because they could. (I knew one kid in high school who was a bully on the Corridor Patrol, in later years he became a sysprog and was nasty in that role, too.)
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| From | Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-28 16:58 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <n0qurt11cab@news3.newsguy.com> |
| In reply to | #153442 |
On 2015-10-28, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote: > On Tuesday, October 27, 2015 at 9:23:00 PM UTC-4, Charlie Gibbs wrote: > >>> Actually, I'm trying to remember how many disk drives we had--it may >>> have been only one. Back then, 100 meg was a lot of space and we were >>> a small outfit. >> >> I never heard of a system with less than two drives. It just wouldn't >> be worth it. How would you do backups? (Many systems I worked on >> didn't have tape.) > > We had two tape drives. They were pretty good, and were able to read > tapes made from other manufacturers. Probably Uniservo 10s. They were pretty decent, although not really fast (25 ips, IIRC). There was also a Uniservo 14, which looked the same but ran at 60 ips - it looked like a U10 in a hurry. > They sure beat the gawdawful slow 2415 I used at my prior job. I saw a 2415 once. Yech. >>> The operating system for the 90/30 would allow up to five jobs running >>> at once. But I discovered CPU and disk contention effectively limited >>> us to one job at a time. It would actually take longer to run two jobs >>> side by side rather than serially. (One good thing about being small >>> was that I could get the machine to myself and experiment.) >> >> The number of jobs was a sysgen option - you could configure as many as >> seven job slots (at least in later versions of OS/3). Some cheapskates >> would configure only three slots, but the job slot tables were too small >> for this to justify limiting yourself that way. In my experience, three >> concurrent jobs would hit the point of diminishing returns, although >> this would vary according to how I/O-bound you were, how well you could >> spread files across drives, and how much memory you had. (Most systems >> I worked on had 192K; some people would try to cheap out - with the >> encouragement of low-balling salesmen - and wound up with 128K, which >> put them in a world of hurt.) > > I think we had 256k. Did they support 512k? I think memory had fallen > in cost by then. I think 512K was offered late in the 90/30's life. 256K definitely gave good breathing space, though. <snip> > This kind of thing wasn't uncommon in the DP world years ago. There were > a lot of poorly trained managers and supervised who had authority but > inadequate understanding. Unfortunately, some of those types were just > plain arrogant SOB's who ordered other people around because they could. > (I knew one kid in high school who was a bully on the Corridor Patrol, > in later years he became a sysprog and was nasty in that role, too.) Sounds like a counterpart to the fabled BOFH. -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
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| From | hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-28 10:10 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <e5dbfed3-3f62-4b46-b146-4c71d20e0905@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #153447 |
On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 12:58:52 PM UTC-4, Charlie Gibbs wrote: > I think 512K was offered late in the 90/30's life. 256K definitely gave > good breathing space, though. I wish I knew more about other Univac sites. I had an opportunity to mix and mingle at one conference at Blue Bell, but we were busy with classwork and didn't have too much time for chitchat. I had an interview with a steel mill that used a 90/30. They were a specialty steel maker and it probably would've been an interesting place to work. They may still even be in business, a rarity in the steel industry. So many of the modest sized organizations of years past have either gone out of business or have been acquired by some giant corporation. I previously mentioned was that our IBM C/E served merely one neighborhood of the city. Well, today, I don't think any of those customers are still in business.
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| From | Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-28 20:08 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <n0ra04029m5@news6.newsguy.com> |
| In reply to | #153448 |
On 2015-10-28, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote: > On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 12:58:52 PM UTC-4, Charlie Gibbs wrote: > >> I think 512K was offered late in the 90/30's life. 256K definitely gave >> good breathing space, though. > > I wish I knew more about other Univac sites. I had an opportunity to mix > and mingle at one conference at Blue Bell, but we were busy with classwork > and didn't have too much time for chitchat. > > I had an interview with a steel mill that used a 90/30. They were a > specialty steel maker and it probably would've been an interesting place > to work. They may still even be in business, a rarity in the steel industry. > > So many of the modest sized organizations of years past have either gone > out of business or have been acquired by some giant corporation. > > I previously mentioned was that our IBM C/E served merely one neighborhood > of the city. Well, today, I don't think any of those customers are still > in business. Odd you should mention the steel industry. When I first got my hands on a 90/30, I was working in the computer department of a steel foundry that is just around the corner from where I currently live. It was indeed an interesting place to work. I've heard that it's shutting down next year. From there I went to work for Univac for four years, and wound up either visiting or working in just about every 90/30 shop in the Vancouver area. It was a wonderfully broadening experience. Unfortunately, Univac was in the process of transitioning from a technical outfit to a marketing one, which meant that my job was turning into one of keeping salesmen's outlandish promises for them. I eventually got out, moving to one of those local 90/30 shops, where I stayed until a management takeover made life unbearable. -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
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| From | hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-28 13:58 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <1f57c9f7-6fc4-4fbd-8e72-b0a08a3280a5@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #153472 |
On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 4:07:13 PM UTC-4, Charlie Gibbs wrote: > Odd you should mention the steel industry. When I first got my hands on > a 90/30, I was working in the computer department of a steel foundry that > is just around the corner from where I currently live. It was indeed an > interesting place to work. I've heard that it's shutting down next year. I know people who used to work in the steel industry and they've talked a lot about the decline. The US industry today is a tiny shadow of itself. One wonders what would happen if we got into a war and needed to solid source of domestic steel. The steel industry got hammered in 1974 by three large forces: 1) foreign competition in both raw steel and finished products (like automobiles), 2) skyrocketing energy costs, and 3) environmental laws that went into effect after years of deferrals. Inefficient mills simply closed down for good, but the overall industry never totally recovered. The small producers "little steel" mostly went bankrupt. Bethleham Steel had _huge_ plants in Sparrows Pt and Bethleham (among other places) and most are completely shut down. I don't know what computers Bethleham utilized to run the business or operate the mills. In the 1990s, the industry started to make use of process control computers to record production and heat values as well as control production; that is an area I know nothing about. I heard HP made a lot stuff for that. FWIW, my economics teacher said that an old experienced master steel maker could look at the flames and know better the content than electronic process controllers.
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| From | "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-27 15:53 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <n0oo3j$16i$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #153384 |
"Dan Espen" <despen@verizon.net> wrote in message news:n0oa0t$4vo$1@dont-email.me... > Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> writes: > >> Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> writes: >>> also regression tests ... PTFs could introduce failures &/or >>> incompatibilities ... like "fixes" for JCL that had side-effect that >>> would result in production jobs to stop running. >> >> another side-effect ... over time, PTFs could significantly degrade the >> performance of my system. >> >> When I did sysgen, I tore apart sysgen2 output of sysgen1 and >> re-organized lots of the sequence to carefully place files and PDS >> library members on disk to optimize arm seek motion (& PDS multi-track >> search member lookup) ... which got nearly 3 times throughput >> improvement on fortgclg student jobs. > > I assume you did this optimization of arm movement manually. > Too bad you didn't automate the process into something you could > pass on to customers. > > I'm thinking: > > 1. Turn on a monitor that watches arm movement into files > 2. run a re-org that places key files accordingly. > > With solid state and striping seemingly taking over the usefulness of > this kind of thing is diminishing rapidly. > The modern hard disks are so complicated... with their own CPU and megabytes of disk cache... that we need to have a college course in disk drive processing!!! So your program does a disk write. The data goes to someplace in the RAM cache on the disk. The drive may wait a millisecond or two to see if extra stuff is written to the same disk file... before actually dumping that part of the cache to the actual disk. Now your program reads from a different disk file. The drive may read the *entire* track into its RAM cache, thinking your program will probably need more data from the track. So the disk drive CPU can be handling multiple transactions at the same time... and waiting for things to happen on some of the transactions. In addition, some hard disks (the Western Digital "Green" drives for example") will unload the disk heads if the disk is *not* accessed in X number of milliseconds. And also I'm assuming that the drives keep disk logging information while all this is going on. The hard disk is only one complication that ISTM a college course is needed. How about programming the different GPUs and graphics cards??? And how do "true type fonts" really work??? If I wanted to read in a font and alter one of the characters... how would I go about that??? I crave all this arcane knowledge!!! -- numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
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| From | Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-27 17:11 -0400 |
| Subject | Re: high level language idea - TTF |
| Message-ID | <n0op53$t8$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #153410 |
"Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> writes: > "Dan Espen" <despen@verizon.net> wrote in message > And how do "true type fonts" really work??? If I wanted to read in a > font and alter one of the characters... how would I go about that??? > I crave all this arcane knowledge!!! Definitely on TT fonts. I REALLY want a programming font that clearly shows comma vs. period. I've looked at the font editing tools, but my head spins. .,., Not so bad when they are adjacent. but otherwise. really hard to see the difference, :) -- Dan Espen
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| From | scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-28 13:24 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: high level language idea - TTF |
| Message-ID | <B04Yx.15255$nT2.10206@fx02.iad> |
| In reply to | #153412 |
Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> writes: >"Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> writes: > >> "Dan Espen" <despen@verizon.net> wrote in message >> And how do "true type fonts" really work??? If I wanted to read in a >> font and alter one of the characters... how would I go about that??? >> I crave all this arcane knowledge!!! > >Definitely on TT fonts. > >I REALLY want a programming font that clearly shows comma vs. period. >I've looked at the font editing tools, but my head spins. > >.,., > >Not so bad when they are adjacent. but otherwise. really hard to see the >difference, > Something to be said about the X11 monospaced fonts, they do a good job of distinguishing between period and comma.
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| From | hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-28 07:37 -0700 |
| Subject | Re: high level language idea - TTF |
| Message-ID | <46aeedee-f907-449a-8ad4-80d21d880ad4@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #153412 |
On Tuesday, October 27, 2015 at 5:11:03 PM UTC-4, D_J_E wrote: > I REALLY want a programming font that clearly shows comma vs. period. > I've looked at the font editing tools, but my head spins. As an aside, the 1403 was a hugely popular printer. I think multiple typefaces were available, but I think most sites used the standard one we all know. For all of IBM's experience, that standard typeface had some weaknesses. As you mention, the comma and period looked too much alike. The three was easily turned into an eight by a check forger. Ironically, IBM's _402_ tab machine typeface had a three where the ends stuck out far, making it obvious if someone tried to convert it to an eight. (The 407 not as much.)
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| From | Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-28 16:58 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: high level language idea - TTF |
| Message-ID | <n0qurt01cab@news3.newsguy.com> |
| In reply to | #153443 |
On 2015-10-28, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote: > On Tuesday, October 27, 2015 at 5:11:03 PM UTC-4, D_J_E wrote: > >> I REALLY want a programming font that clearly shows comma vs. period. >> I've looked at the font editing tools, but my head spins. > > As an aside, the 1403 was a hugely popular printer. I think multiple > typefaces were available, but I think most sites used the standard one > we all know. > > For all of IBM's experience, that standard typeface had some weaknesses. > As you mention, the comma and period looked too much alike. The three > was easily turned into an eight by a check forger. Ironically, IBM's _402_ > tab machine typeface had a three where the ends stuck out far, making it > obvious if someone tried to convert it to an eight. (The 407 not as much.) The one that I watched out for while reading memory dumps was 0 vs. C. If the printer was slightly misadjusted so that the right-hand edge of a zero was cut off, it looked exactly like the letter C. -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
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| From | Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-28 15:10 -0400 |
| Subject | Re: high level language idea - TTF |
| Message-ID | <n0r6eb$fbh$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #153412 |
Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> writes: > "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> writes: > >> "Dan Espen" <despen@verizon.net> wrote in message >> And how do "true type fonts" really work??? If I wanted to read in a >> font and alter one of the characters... how would I go about that??? >> I crave all this arcane knowledge!!! > > Definitely on TT fonts. > > I REALLY want a programming font that clearly shows comma vs. period. > I've looked at the font editing tools, but my head spins. Oh, forgot to mention, I do all my HLASM coding in Emacs. By default, text is chartreuse on black. I have my own BAL mode for HLASM and it displays all periods in red. That helps, a little. > Not so bad when they are adjacent. but otherwise. really hard to see the > difference, So, either these intentional mistakes were missed or no one cared to mention them. -- Dan Espen
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| From | Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-28 01:22 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <n0p7vs22cpd@news7.newsguy.com> |
| In reply to | #153410 |
On 2015-10-27, Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote: > The modern hard disks are so complicated... with their own CPU and megabytes > of disk cache... that we need to have a college course in disk drive > processing!!! Who needs modern disks? Wanna learn about channel programming? 360-style I/O channels were simple computers in themselves, fetching and processing CCWs (channel command words) the way a normal CPU processes instructions. There was even conditional branching. I cribbed some code and concocted with a CCW chain that, given a file name, would search the entire VTOC (volume table of contents, IBM-speak for directory) and return the format 1 label for the desired file in a single I/O operation. (Lynn has pointed out how that could be a Bad Thing in a multitasking system, given that it ties up the entire disk subsystem while executing...) -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
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| From | Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-28 08:04 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <8737wv5915.fsf@lhwserver.localdomain> |
| In reply to | #153384 |
Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> writes: > I assume you did this optimization of arm movement manually. Too bad > you didn't automate the process into something you could pass on to > customers. re: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015h.html#35 high level language idea http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015h.html#36 high level language idea http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015h.html#38 high level language idea http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015h.html#39 high level language idea http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015h.html#40 high level language idea started with re-arrainging cards in a card tray ... stage2 was over thousand cards ... mostly based on my understanding of os/360 internals. then got a load trace ... for PDS library member names ... and reorganizing cards got more sophisticated. a decade later ... at SJR ... did modification of VM370 to collect arm movement data ... both VM370 operations and activity of virtual machines. It was initially used in cache simulator ... looking at types of caching and caching strategies. One of the things it showed that most efficient use of fixed amount of electronic cache was global cache rather than partitioned into controller or device level caches. The work also found that emerging cache technology started to take care of highest use common system data ... and physical location clustering started to focus on collections of application data that tended to be used together in bursty sequences ... as in daily, weekly, monthly intervals. Also highlighted differentiating between high re-use data patterns and purely sequential use data patterns where caching provided little benefit (and caching sequential use data could degrade throughput by replacing repeated high-use data). There was work on doing efficient real-time reduction of the data ... so it might be used by systems for allocation strategies as well as supporting dynamic moving data for better throughput. about the same time there was a different internally developed program MDREORG that relied on standard VM370 PER collected information. It was used by (internal) installations moving from 3330&3350 to 3380 configurations. It would define load balancing across 3380 drives and ordering within 3380 drives to optimize throughput. One of the things it showed, if you completely filled a fewer number of 3380 drives from 3350 drive configuration, there would be worse performance. The throughput break-even was filling 3380 drive 80% full of data from 3350 configuration (which was still cheaper than 3350 configuration). For better performance needed to have 3380 at less than 80% full of data from 3350 configuration (and leaving the rest of the space empty or using for very infrequently used data). semi-related ... posts mentioning getting to play disk engineer in bldgs. 14&15 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#disk and posts mentioning multi-track search/CKD versus fixed-block/FBA http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#dask some past refs about using monitoring/trace information for improving throughput http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006y.html#35 The Future of CPUs: What's After Multi-Core? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007.html#3 The Future of CPUs: What's After Multi-Core? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008l.html#65 Crippleware: hardware examples http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010i.html#18 How to analyze a volume's access by dataset http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011.html#70 Speed of Old Hard Disks http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011.html#71 Speed of Old Hard Disks http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012c.html#47 nested LRU schemes http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013d.html#11 relative mainframe speeds, was What Makes an Architecture Bizarre? semi-related, ... late 70s & early 80s, I was making comments that relative system throughput of disks was significantly declining ... by the early 80s, the relative system throughput of disks were an order of magnitude less than the mid/late 60s (when I was doing the careful os/360 sysgens) ... aka processors got 40-50 times faster, disks got 3-5 times faster. at one point, disk division executives took exception to the statements and assigned the division performance organization to refute them. After several weeks, the came back and effectively said that I had slightly understated the problem. They then respin it into SHARE presentation on how to configure disks for improving throughput. some past posts http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002i.html#18 AS/400 and MVS - clarification please http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002i.html#46 AS/400 and MVS - clarification please http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006f.html#3 using 3390 mod-9s http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006o.html#68 DASD Response Time (on antique 3390?) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007s.html#5 Poster of computer hardware events? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007s.html#9 Poster of computer hardware events? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008c.html#88 CPU time differences for the same job http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009g.html#71 308x Processors - was "Mainframe articles" http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009i.html#7 My Vintage Dream PC http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009k.html#34 A Complete History Of Mainframe Computing http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009k.html#52 Hercules; more information requested http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009l.html#67 ACP, One of the Oldest Open Source Apps http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010c.html#1 "The Naked Mainframe" (Forbes Security Article) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010h.html#70 25 reasons why hardware is still hot at IBM http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010l.html#31 Wax ON Wax OFF -- Tuning VSAM considerations http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010l.html#32 OS idling http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010l.html#33 History of Hard-coded Offsets http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010n.html#18 Mainframe Slang terms http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010q.html#30 IBM Historic computing http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011.html#35 CKD DASD http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011.html#61 Speed of Old Hard Disks http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011e.html#1 Multiple Virtual Memory http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011g.html#59 Is the magic and romance killed by Windows (and Linux)? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011p.html#5 Why are organizations sticking with mainframes? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011p.html#32 Has anyone successfully migrated off mainframes? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012b.html#73 Tape vs DASD - Speed/time/CPU utilization http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012e.html#39 A bit of IBM System 360 nostalgia http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012o.html#62 ISO documentation of IBM 3375, 3380 and 3390 track format http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013m.html#72 'Free Unix!': The world-changing proclamation made 30 years agotoday http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014b.html#49 Mac at 30: A love/hate relationship from the support front http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014l.html#90 What's the difference between doing performance in a mainframe environment versus doing in others http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014m.html#87 Death of spinning disk? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015g.html#0 Miniskirts and mainframes -- virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
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| From | Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-27 11:34 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <n0o5ei$hqc$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #153378 |
hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes: > On Saturday, October 24, 2015 at 10:11:20 PM UTC-4, Jon Elson wrote: > >> OS/360 was an "open" OS, meaning that anyone who was legally running it had >> the source code. And, every significant installation felt compelled to >> tinker with stuff, customizing, or in some cases fixing IBM's bugs. These >> were not "hackers", meaning outsiders, these were the system support staff >> at any place that had such a group. They got hundreds of update and patches >> (PTFs or Program Temporary Fixes) a month, and could decide whether to >> install each one or let it ride. > > Keeping PTFs applied and up to date was a busy task for system > programmers at a large installation. They had to be reviewed to see > if the contents were relevant to the particular installation. > Sometimes they had to be loaded when the machine was idle and then > re-IPL'd. They had to be carefully tracked and loaded in the proper > order. > > When I worked with a Univac 90/30, they would send us PTF's on > _paper_. That is, we had to keypunch a bunch of hex characters from > the document, and naturally it had to be 100% accurate. Imagine > keypunching several rows of the following: > > E2D6C3D240C9E340E3D640D4C540E2D6C3D240C9E340E3D640D4C540 Sounds like horrible service. But a vendor with a sense of humor. "SOCK IT TO ME SOCK IT TO ME". Hope it came with VER and REP cards so at least the patch location could be verified. -- Dan Espen
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