Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > alt.folklore.computers > #150402 > unrolled thread

very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode

Back to article view | Back to alt.folklore.computers

Contents

  very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-08-25 13:24 -0700
    Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode floyd@apaflo.com (Floyd L. Davidson) - 2015-08-25 13:35 -0800
    Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode David Wade <dave.g4ugm@gmail.com> - 2015-08-25 23:19 +0100
    Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-08-25 17:36 -0500
    Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "Joe Morris" <j.c.morris@verizon.net> - 2015-08-25 19:41 -0400
      Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode tracymnelson@gmail.com - 2015-10-26 09:16 -0700
        Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-26 09:47 -0700
          Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-26 10:00 -0700
            Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-26 21:18 +0000
              Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2015-10-26 17:37 -0400
                Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-27 19:55 +0000
              Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2015-10-27 08:31 -0400
              Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2015-10-27 14:41 -0500
                Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-27 20:17 +0000
                  Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2015-10-28 15:59 -0500
                    Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-28 19:01 -0700
                      Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2015-10-29 13:46 -0500
                        Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-29 19:37 +0000
            Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> - 2015-10-26 21:00 -0500
              Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-26 19:41 -0700
                Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-27 07:28 -0700
                  Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-27 12:47 -0700
                    Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-27 20:17 +0000
                Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode David Wade <dave.g4ugm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-27 23:02 +0000
                  Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-10-28 09:38 +0000
                    Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-28 07:47 -0700
                      Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-10-28 19:24 +0000
                        Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-28 13:42 -0700
                      Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode David Wade <dave.g4ugm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-30 15:57 +0000
                    Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode David Wade <dave.g4ugm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-30 15:54 +0000
                      Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-10-30 18:44 +0000
              Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2015-10-27 15:19 -0500
                Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> - 2015-10-27 18:58 -0500
                  Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-27 17:57 -0700
                    Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-27 17:59 -0700
                    Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-27 18:26 -0700
                    Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2015-10-28 14:57 -0500
                      Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-10-28 14:09 -0600
                        Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2015-10-28 15:52 -0500
                      Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2015-10-28 15:46 -0500
                      Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-28 21:09 +0000
                    Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2015-10-28 15:38 -0500
                  Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2015-10-28 06:06 -0400
                Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-28 01:22 +0000
                  Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2015-10-28 15:22 -0500
                    Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-28 13:49 -0700
                      Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-28 15:51 -0700
                        Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-28 19:28 -0700
                    Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-28 21:34 +0000
                      Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Ibmekon <Ibmekon> - 2015-10-28 22:11 +0000
                        Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode David Wade <dave.g4ugm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-30 15:59 +0000
                          Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-10-30 16:31 +0000
                            Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-30 20:07 -0700
                            Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-10-31 03:57 -0600
                              Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-10-31 10:20 +0000
                                Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-10-31 04:51 -0600
                                Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2015-10-31 07:08 -0400
                                  Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-10-31 12:29 +0000
                                Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode David Hume <David.Hume@example.com> - 2015-10-31 12:04 +0000
                                  Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-10-31 06:11 -0600
                                    Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode David Hume <David.Hume@example.com> - 2015-10-31 12:37 +0000
                                  Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-10-31 13:20 +0000
                                Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode David Wade <dave.g4ugm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-01 16:18 +0000
                                  Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-11-01 10:41 -0600
                              Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-10-31 15:21 +0100
                                Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2015-10-31 15:13 +0000
                                  Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2015-10-31 12:49 -0500
                              Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2015-10-31 15:09 -0500
                                Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Greymaus <mausg@mail.com> - 2015-11-01 12:04 +0000
                                  Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-11-01 07:48 -0600
                                    Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2015-11-01 13:56 +0000
                                    Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Greymaus <mausg@mail.com> - 2015-11-01 18:33 +0000
                                      Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-11-02 17:17 +0000
                          Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Ibmekon <Ibmekon> - 2015-10-31 11:30 +0000
                      Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-28 19:15 -0700
                        Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-29 02:55 +0000
                          Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-29 07:36 -0700
                            Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-29 17:19 +0000
                              Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Lawrence Statton <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2015-10-29 11:33 -0600
                                Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-29 19:37 +0000
                                  Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2015-10-29 18:03 -0500
                          Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-10-29 11:44 -0600
                            Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-29 19:37 +0000
                              Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2015-10-29 16:03 -0400
                                Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Lawrence Statton <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2015-10-29 14:15 -0600
                                Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-29 21:51 +0000
                                  Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-29 15:20 -0700
                                    Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2015-10-30 07:28 -0400
                                      Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2015-10-30 14:57 -0500
                              Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-29 13:26 -0700
                                Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2015-10-29 15:40 -0500
                              Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-29 15:32 -0700
                                Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-29 23:10 +0000
                                  Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-29 19:09 -0700
                                    Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-30 16:35 +0000
                                      Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-10-30 18:35 +0000
                                        Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-30 12:05 -0700
                                          Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-30 12:22 -0700
                                          Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-11-02 14:15 +0000
                                      Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2015-10-30 17:31 -0400
                                        Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2015-10-30 17:44 -0400
                                        Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2015-10-30 23:38 -0400
                                        Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2015-10-31 15:08 -0500
                                          Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-11-02 17:17 +0000
                                            Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Alfred Falk <falk@arc.ab.ca> - 2015-11-03 16:44 +0000
                                            Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2015-11-05 15:28 -0600
                                              Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2015-11-05 17:05 -0500
            Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-10-26 22:12 +0100
    Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-11-16 18:48 -0800
      Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2015-11-25 16:00 +0000
        Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-11-30 09:43 -0800
          Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode floyd@apaflo.com (Floyd L. Davidson) - 2015-11-30 10:42 -0900

Page 1 of 6  [1] 2 3 4 5 6  Next page →

#150402 — very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode

In reading C&A, I found an ad by Sylvania with specs for various tubes.  Knowing extremely little tubes, could someone expand a little bit on the following...

1) What is a "twin", as in the difference between a 5844 triode and a 5965 _twin_ triode?  How would they be used?

2) What does "mu" mean, as in 6211 Medium mu twin triode, and 5687 Low mu twin triad?  How would they be used?

http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/www.bitsavers.org/pdf/computersAndAutomation/195602.pdf  (page 48, last page)


Then we have the "5915A Dual control heptode"/  I found a writeup that said it was "used as a gated amplifier in computer control circuits.  Each of the independent control grids exhibits a shart cutoff characteristic.  When used in on-off applications, will maintain its emission capabilities after long periods of operation in cutoff conditions."
http://www.ase-museoedelpro.org/Museo_Edelpro/Catalogo/tubes/records/7036/1947ed_RMA.pdf

The writeup includes specs for voltages, resistance, amps/milliamps, and watts for each piece, along with graphs of performance, e.g. grid voltage vs. plate current.

I guess I'll have to go back to school and get my EE degree.  I gotta lot of work ahead of me to convince my employer to use tube machines.  <g>

[toc] | [next] | [standalone]

#150422

hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>In reading C&A, I found an ad by Sylvania with specs for
>various tubes.  Knowing extremely little tubes, could
>someone expand a little bit on the following...
>
>1) What is a "twin", as in the difference between a 5844
>triode and a 5965 _twin_ triode?  How would they be
>used?

That describes two units built into one envelope.

The 5844 is a twin triode with a 7 pin base, where both of the
triodes share a common cathode.  The specifications suggest it
would be useful for a DC switching function.

The 5965 is a twin triode with a 9 pin base, where the two
triode have separate cathodes.  It has a higher mu (gain), but
in several ways is similar to the above 5844.

>2) What does "mu" mean, as in 6211 Medium mu twin
>triode, and 5687 Low mu twin triad?  How would they be
>used?

Essentially mu is the gain.  It is the change in plate current
divided by the change in grid voltage that caused the change.
Higher values are useful for higher gain applications, while
lower values are useful for switching applications (or higher
output for power amplifiers).  Note also that higher gain would
usually mean shorter life and less stable operation.

Tubes varied significantly between manufacturers, between batches
off the same production line, and with age.  With circuits where
manual adjustment was not desired, it was not uncommon to stick with
one manufacturer, to "burn in" tubes for at least 48 hours, and then
to hand pick tubes within a given mu range.

-- 
Floyd L. Davidson                         http://www.apaflo.com/
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)                      floyd@apaflo.com

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#150434

On 25/08/2015 21:24, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> In reading C&A, I found an ad by Sylvania with specs for various tubes.  Knowing extremely little tubes, could someone expand a little bit on the following...
>
> 1) What is a "twin", as in the difference between a 5844 triode and a 5965 _twin_ triode?  How would they be used?
>
> 2) What does "mu" mean, as in 6211 Medium mu twin triode, and 5687 Low mu twin triad?  How would they be used?
>
> http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/www.bitsavers.org/pdf/computersAndAutomation/195602.pdf  (page 48, last page)
>
>
> Then we have the "5915A Dual control heptode"/  I found a writeup that said it was "used as a gated amplifier in computer control circuits.  Each of the independent control grids exhibits a shart cutoff characteristic.  When used in on-off applications, will maintain its emission capabilities after long periods of operation in cutoff conditions."
> http://www.ase-museoedelpro.org/Museo_Edelpro/Catalogo/tubes/records/7036/1947ed_RMA.pdf

There are also dual control Pentodes. The 1949 Manchester Small Scale 
Experiental computer made extensive use of these "tubes". (In the UK 
they are "Valves".

>
> The writeup includes specs for voltages, resistance, amps/milliamps, and watts for each piece, along with graphs of performance, e.g. grid voltage vs. plate current.
>
> I guess I'll have to go back to school and get my EE degree.  I gotta lot of work ahead of me to convince my employer to use tube machines.  <g>
>

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#150438

<hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:

>In reading C&A, I found an ad by Sylvania with specs for various tubes. 
>Knowing extremely little tubes, could someone expand a little bit on the 
>following...

>1) What is a "twin", as in the difference between a 5844 triode and a 5965 
>_twin_ triode?  How would they be used?

A twin triode would be a natural way to make a flip-flop,one envelope per 
bit.   But it could be used anyplace where gain was needed so for the gain 
needed for an AND or OR.  According to the literature, the Eniac used scads 
of 6SN7s, a very common and popular tube, especially in early TV sets.

A triode has three elements, the most basic form of amplification dating to 
the 19 teens.  Many people claim that the inventor, Lee DeForest, didn't 
understand the theory of operation. 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#150442

<hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:

> I guess I'll have to go back to school and get my EE
> degree.  I gotta lot of work ahead of me to convince
> my employer to use tube machines.

Point out to your employer that tube equipment can serve multiple functions. 
Back in the early 1960s when I was a TV broadcast engineer the station I 
worked for had a bus for remote work (a thoroughly used Greyhound 
Silversides); when out on a remote the crew left their lunchbags in the 
equipment racks; there was no problem whatever with keeping the food warm.

And before someone points out that equipment of that vintage was 
semiconductor-based, I'll note that this was an ETV station, using 
hand-me-down equipment scrounged from the commercial stations.  As an 
example, our (tube-based) sync generator occupied an entire 72" relay rack; 
just before I left we replaced it with a new transistorized sync generator 
that I recall as being 2U high, most of which due to the crystal oven.

Joe 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#153348

On Tuesday, August 25, 2015 at 7:41:17 PM UTC-4, Joe Morris wrote:
> 
> Point out to your employer that tube equipment can serve multiple functions. 
> Back in the early 1960s when I was a TV broadcast engineer the station I 
> worked for had a bus for remote work (a thoroughly used Greyhound 
> Silversides); when out on a remote the crew left their lunchbags in the 
> equipment racks; there was no problem whatever with keeping the food warm.

I once worked for a company that had one of the last IBM 1130s in commercial service (this was in the early 90s). The building was designed to use it as an adjunct to the HVAC system in winter. When they wound down their service bureau and sold the machine (to the US Army, IIRC), they had to do some non-trivial air handling work to keep the place warm.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#153351

On Monday, October 26, 2015 at 10:16:52 AM UTC-6, tracym...@gmail.com wrote:

> I once worked for a company that had one of the last IBM 1130s in commercial 
> service (this was in the early 90s). The building was designed to use it as an 
> adjunct to the HVAC system in winter. When they wound down their service bureau 
> and sold the machine (to the US Army, IIRC), they had to do some non-trivial 
> air handling work to keep the place warm.

And note, incidentally, that the IBM 1130 wasn't a vacuum-tube machine. It 
wasn't even implemented with discrete transistors: it uses SLT like the 360 
with which it was contemporary.

John Savard

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#153352

On Monday, October 26, 2015 at 12:47:45 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Monday, October 26, 2015 at 10:16:52 AM UTC-6, tracym...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> > I once worked for a company that had one of the last IBM 1130s in commercial 
> > service (this was in the early 90s). The building was designed to use it as an 
> > adjunct to the HVAC system in winter. When they wound down their service bureau 
> > and sold the machine (to the US Army, IIRC), they had to do some non-trivial 
> > air handling work to keep the place warm.
> 
> And note, incidentally, that the IBM 1130 wasn't a vacuum-tube machine. It 
> wasn't even implemented with discrete transistors: it uses SLT like the 360 
> with which it was contemporary.

One weekend I went in to work on our S/360 and forgot to turn on the a/c.  It didn't take long for the computer room to get very warm.

Indeed, I wonder what a modern office consumes in a/c to cool down the PC that sits on everyone's desk, plus all the support network gear.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#153363

On 2015-10-26, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:

> One weekend I went in to work on our S/360 and forgot to turn on the a/c.
> It didn't take long for the computer room to get very warm.

One weekend (when leaving Friday) I forgot to turn the a/c _off_.
It wasn't on a thermostat, but just ran full blast.  By Monday
the room was so cold our breath was condensing, and the oil in
the disk drive actuators had congealed; we had to leave the
drives spinning for an hour or so before the heads would load.

-- 
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored.  Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#153365

On Mon, 26 Oct 2015, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> On 2015-10-26, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>
>> One weekend I went in to work on our S/360 and forgot to turn on the a/c.
>> It didn't take long for the computer room to get very warm.
>
> One weekend (when leaving Friday) I forgot to turn the a/c _off_.
> It wasn't on a thermostat, but just ran full blast.  By Monday
> the room was so cold our breath was condensing, and the oil in
> the disk drive actuators had congealed; we had to leave the
> drives spinning for an hour or so before the heads would load.
>
Did you tell that story here before?

The previous post reminded me of someone's story about air conditioning, 
but I couldn't remember the outcome.  It was either that things got too 
cold, or the air conditioning wasn't turned on so the computer nearly melted.

   Michael

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#153396

On 2015-10-26, Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> wrote:

> On Mon, 26 Oct 2015, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> On 2015-10-26, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>>
>>> One weekend I went in to work on our S/360 and forgot to turn on the a/c.
>>> It didn't take long for the computer room to get very warm.
>>
>> One weekend (when leaving Friday) I forgot to turn the a/c _off_.
>> It wasn't on a thermostat, but just ran full blast.  By Monday
>> the room was so cold our breath was condensing, and the oil in
>> the disk drive actuators had congealed; we had to leave the
>> drives spinning for an hour or so before the heads would load.
>
> Did you tell that story here before?

Well, they say that one sign of getting old is repeating yourself.

> The previous post reminded me of someone's story about air conditioning, 
> but I couldn't remember the outcome.  It was either that things got too 
> cold, or the air conditioning wasn't turned on so the computer nearly melted.

My story was the "too cold" one; the "too hot" one was someone else's.

Well, they say that one sign of getting old is repeating yourself.

-- 
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored.  Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#153376

On 26/10/2015 5:18 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2015-10-26, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>
>> One weekend I went in to work on our S/360 and forgot to turn on
>> the a/c. It didn't take long for the computer room to get very
>> warm.
>
> One weekend (when leaving Friday) I forgot to turn the a/c _off_. It
> wasn't on a thermostat, but just ran full blast.  By Monday the room
> was so cold our breath was condensing, and the oil in the disk drive
> actuators had congealed; we had to leave the drives spinning for an
> hour or so before the heads would load.
>
About the biggest computer room mess I have seen was a 360/30 left on
overnight and a oil hose on a disk drive actuator failed. It was used as
an excuse to get rid of it.

w..

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#153392

"Charlie Gibbs" <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote in message 
news:n0m5bu02pdd@news6.newsguy.com...
> On 2015-10-26, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>
>> One weekend I went in to work on our S/360 and forgot to turn on the a/c.
>> It didn't take long for the computer room to get very warm.
>
> One weekend (when leaving Friday) I forgot to turn the a/c _off_.
> It wasn't on a thermostat, but just ran full blast.  By Monday
> the room was so cold our breath was condensing, and the oil in
> the disk drive actuators had congealed; we had to leave the
> drives spinning for an hour or so before the heads would load.
>

Charlie, just a point of curiousity... how do the heads *know* when to 
load??? Do the heads load when the disk reaches a certain RPM???  (ISTM that 
you have mentioned this "congealing disk drive oil" in an earlier post.  No 
matter... I like hearing all this again!!!)

-- 

numerist at aquaporin4 dot com

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#153402

On 2015-10-27, Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:

> "Charlie Gibbs" <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote in message 
> news:n0m5bu02pdd@news6.newsguy.com...
>
>> On 2015-10-26, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>>
>>> One weekend I went in to work on our S/360 and forgot to turn on the a/c.
>>> It didn't take long for the computer room to get very warm.
>>
>> One weekend (when leaving Friday) I forgot to turn the a/c _off_.
>> It wasn't on a thermostat, but just ran full blast.  By Monday
>> the room was so cold our breath was condensing, and the oil in
>> the disk drive actuators had congealed; we had to leave the
>> drives spinning for an hour or so before the heads would load.
>>
>
> Charlie, just a point of curiousity... how do the heads *know* when to 
> load??? Do the heads load when the disk reaches a certain RPM???  (ISTM that 
> you have mentioned this "congealing disk drive oil" in an earlier post.  No 
> matter... I like hearing all this again!!!)

I'm not sure exactly how it worked.  I believe that RPM was one criterion,
but not the only one.  The drive would normally wait for something like
30 seconds before trying to load the heads, even though it only took a
few seconds for the pack to spin up to speed.  There was probably a timer
to ensure that airflow and temperatures had stabilized around the pack.
As for the heads loading, I'm guessing that the congealed oil made
the heads move so sluggishly that a velocity sensor signaled a fault.
I think the heads started to move out but then retracted immediately,
and the drive probably registered some sort of internal error that
could only be cleared by a restart.

-- 
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored.  Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#153481

> On 2015-10-27, Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
> 

>>
>> Charlie, just a point of curiousity... how do the heads *know* when to
>> load??? Do the heads load when the disk reaches a certain RPM???  (ISTM
>> that
>> you have mentioned this "congealing disk drive oil" in an earlier post. 
>> No matter... I like hearing all this again!!!)
> 
The IBM 2314 was a technical marvel, but also just a little Rube Goldberg.
The motor turned the spindle via a belt, which also turned a Cessna 
hydraulic pump.  The pump was connected to the head positioner package by 
hoses.  The positioner package had a hydraulic valve and either a hydraulic 
cylinder or hydraulic motor to move the heads in and out.  it also had an 
indexing mechanism that detented the drive to the correct cylinders.
If the hydraulic hose blew, it sprayed oil all over the place, and was a 
HUGE mess.  I think most large installations with 2314s eventually 
experienced one of these, and it would ruin several disk packs that were 
near the affected drive.  The longer you let it go, the more the oil spray 
spread.

Jon

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#153499

On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 4:58:13 PM UTC-4, Jon Elson wrote:

> The IBM 2314 was a technical marvel, but also just a little Rube Goldberg.
> The motor turned the spindle via a belt, which also turned a Cessna 
> hydraulic pump.  The pump was connected to the head positioner package by 
> hoses.  The positioner package had a hydraulic valve and either a hydraulic 
> cylinder or hydraulic motor to move the heads in and out.  it also had an 
> indexing mechanism that detented the drive to the correct cylinders.
> If the hydraulic hose blew, it sprayed oil all over the place, and was a 
> HUGE mess.  I think most large installations with 2314s eventually 
> experienced one of these, and it would ruin several disk packs that were 
> near the affected drive.  The longer you let it go, the more the oil spray 
> spread.

FWIW, we had a 2314 for years, and it served us very well.

Indeed, IBM repackaged the 2314 to be the 2319 and sent it out with early S/370 models.

I did hear of diks heads occasionally crashing, ruining the disk surface and of course the data, but this was rare.  Sites normally backed up their disks at least once a day. However, if a head crash happened say at noon, online data entered that day could be lost unless decent logging was maintained.  Even with good backups, recovery was a real bitch.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#153547

hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:


> FWIW, we had a 2314 for years, and it served us very well.
> 
> Indeed, IBM repackaged the 2314 to be the 2319 and sent it out with early
> S/370 models.
> 
> I did hear of diks heads occasionally crashing, ruining the disk surface
> and of course the data, but this was rare.  Sites normally backed up their
> disks at least once a day. However, if a head crash happened say at noon,
> online data entered that day could be lost unless decent logging was
> maintained.  Even with good backups, recovery was a real bitch.
2314's were pretty reliable.  The blown hydraulic hose was a RARE event, but 
both places I was at each had it happen ONCE.  It was a truly messy event 
when it happened, contaminated the whole area with oil mist.

The other problem with that type of drive was cascading head failure.  A 
pack would not read, so the operator would swap the pack to another drive, 
that one would also get errors, swap again, and propagate the head/media 
damage.  It took a lot of training to make sure all operators knew to ALWAYS 
keep an eye out for this, and stop immediately when errors propagated from 
one drive to another.  This of course was not a fault with the 2314, you 
could do this on any removable-pack drive.

Jon

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#153554

On 2015-10-29, Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> wrote:

> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>
>> FWIW, we had a 2314 for years, and it served us very well.
>> 
>> Indeed, IBM repackaged the 2314 to be the 2319 and sent it out with early
>> S/370 models.
>> 
>> I did hear of diks heads occasionally crashing, ruining the disk surface
>> and of course the data, but this was rare.  Sites normally backed up their
>> disks at least once a day. However, if a head crash happened say at noon,
>> online data entered that day could be lost unless decent logging was
>> maintained.  Even with good backups, recovery was a real bitch.
> 2314's were pretty reliable.  The blown hydraulic hose was a RARE event, but 
> both places I was at each had it happen ONCE.  It was a truly messy event 
> when it happened, contaminated the whole area with oil mist.

I never saw that happen, although we did have the occasional leak.
Fortunately, they were nothing the drip tray couldn't handle.

> The other problem with that type of drive was cascading head failure.  A 
> pack would not read, so the operator would swap the pack to another drive, 
> that one would also get errors, swap again, and propagate the head/media 
> damage.  It took a lot of training to make sure all operators knew to ALWAYS 
> keep an eye out for this, and stop immediately when errors propagated from 
> one drive to another.  This of course was not a fault with the 2314, you 
> could do this on any removable-pack drive.

And if you had a _really_ determined operator, he would then mount the
backup pack and destroy it too.

-- 
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored.  Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#153371

hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:


> 
> One weekend I went in to work on our S/360 and forgot to turn on the a/c. 
> It didn't take long for the computer room to get very warm.
> 
Must have been one of the larger models.  The /30 and /40 were not massive 
power consumers, but the /50 and up did start to get there.  System 370s 
really gulped the power, though.
> Indeed, I wonder what a modern office consumes in a/c to cool down the PC
> that sits on everyone's desk, plus all the support network gear.
Modern PCs are quite a bit lower power.  The gamers babble to each other 
about 1000 W power supplies, but the typical REAL desktop machines rarely 
use much over 100 W.  Some muilt-chip servers do use more, of course.

The two higher-end desktops in my computer room at home together draw less 
power than my old MicroVAX-II.

Jon

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#153372

On Monday, October 26, 2015 at 8:00:51 PM UTC-6, Jon Elson wrote:

> Must have been one of the larger models.  The /30 and /40 were not massive 
> power consumers, but the /50 and up did start to get there.  System 370s 
> really gulped the power, though.

I figure that an 1130 would be, at most, comparable to a 360/40. I couldn't 
find an installation planning guide for it on Bitsavers, and the FE manual just 
gave the voltages, not the power consumption.

I did find such a manual for the 360 - I had to Google for it, though; the 
directory tree didn't lead me to it. It turns out to be in the FE directory, which makes sense.

The 360/40, CPU only, smallest memory configuration, required 2.5 kVA of power, and produced heat in the amount of 7,000 BTU/hr.

John Savard

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

Page 1 of 6  [1] 2 3 4 5 6  Next page →

Back to top | Article view | alt.folklore.computers

csiph-web