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Groups > alt.folklore.computers > #236265 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2026-10-31 21:38 +0000 |
| Last post | 2026-11-02 13:58 +0000 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 307 — 28 participants |
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Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-31 21:38 +0000
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-11-01 04:30 -0500
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-11-01 10:16 +0000
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-01 19:13 +0000
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-11-02 09:35 -0800
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-11-02 20:27 +0000
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-11-02 13:50 -0800
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-11-02 20:42 -0500
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-11-03 02:42 +0000
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-11-03 16:38 +0800
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-11-03 08:40 +0000
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-11-03 07:29 -0700
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-11-04 02:02 +0800
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-11-03 19:45 +0100
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-11-01 18:17 -0500
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-11-01 16:45 -0800
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-11-01 21:00 -0500
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-11-02 02:16 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-11-02 04:48 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-11-02 14:13 +0800
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-11-02 06:47 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-11-02 20:02 +0800
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-11-02 19:48 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-05 23:17 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-11-05 19:37 -0700
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-11-05 21:54 -0500
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-11-06 20:51 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-06 04:24 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-11-05 23:31 -0500
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-11-06 08:46 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-11-06 07:41 -0700
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-11-06 14:30 +0100
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-06 20:53 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-11-07 06:13 +0800
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-11-07 01:12 +0100
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-11-02 16:51 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-11-02 20:10 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-11-02 03:56 -0500
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-11-02 20:03 +0800
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-11-02 13:51 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-11-02 19:56 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-11-04 19:48 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-11-02 01:28 -0500
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-11-02 09:41 +0100
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-11-02 11:22 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-11-02 20:11 +0800
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-11-02 13:57 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-11-03 00:20 +0100
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-11-03 12:45 +0100
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2026-11-03 11:49 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-11-03 13:02 +0100
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> - 2026-11-03 13:26 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-11-03 07:35 -0700
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-11-03 18:06 +0100
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-03 21:52 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-11-04 07:48 -0700
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-04 21:45 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-03 21:51 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-11-03 14:29 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-11-03 14:28 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2026-11-03 22:15 +0000
Re: [OT] Mainframes, Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-11-03 22:47 +0000
Re: [OT] Mainframes, Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2026-11-03 23:18 +0000
Re: [OT] Mainframes, Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-11-04 03:12 +0000
Re: [OT] Mainframes, Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2026-11-04 08:26 +0000
Re: [OT] Mainframes, Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-05 01:20 +0000
[OT] Fujitsu Horizon (was: Re: [OT] Mainframes, Dead DEC Punch card times) Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-11-05 08:19 +0000
Re: [OT] Fujitsu Horizon Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2026-11-05 09:50 +0000
Re: [OT] Mainframes, Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-11-04 09:09 -0700
Re: [OT] Mainframes, Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-11-04 22:59 +0000
Re: [OT] Mainframes, Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-11-04 19:10 -0700
Re: [OT] Mainframes, Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-11-03 22:30 -0500
Re: [OT] Mainframes, Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-11-04 03:57 +0000
Re: [OT] Mainframes, Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-11-04 16:57 +0800
Re: [OT] Mainframes, Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-11-04 19:51 +0000
Re: [OT] Mainframes, Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-11-05 04:48 +0800
Re: [OT] Mainframes, Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-11-06 06:38 +0000
Re: [OT] Mainframes, Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-11-05 08:27 +0000
Re: [OT] Mainframes, Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-11-04 09:11 -0700
Re: [OT] Mainframes, Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-11-06 06:40 +0000
Re: [OT] Mainframes, Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-11-04 10:43 +0100
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-11-04 07:54 -0700
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2026-11-04 19:59 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-11-04 19:04 -0700
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-05 03:34 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-11-05 06:27 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-11-05 21:01 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-11-06 15:45 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-11-07 11:32 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-03 20:29 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-11-04 07:40 -0700
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-11-04 19:51 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-11-04 19:02 -0700
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-11-05 15:02 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-11-05 19:18 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-11-05 21:00 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-11-05 21:57 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-05 23:04 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-11-05 19:15 -0500
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-11-04 03:23 +0100
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-11-04 10:53 +0100
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-04 21:47 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-11-04 22:22 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-11-05 21:09 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-11-05 00:14 +0100
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-05 01:18 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-11-05 12:27 +0100
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-11-05 21:12 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-11-05 22:22 +0100
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-11-05 15:59 -0700
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-11-06 06:35 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-11-06 23:09 -0500
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-11-07 11:45 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-11-07 07:37 -0700
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-11-07 22:49 +0800
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-11-07 14:54 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-11-07 13:31 -0500
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-11-08 02:56 +0800
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-11-08 21:19 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-07 20:03 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-11-07 20:56 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-11-07 21:53 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-11-08 01:23 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-11-04 11:25 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-11-04 19:45 +0100
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-11-05 03:33 +0800
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-11-05 21:05 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-11-03 00:08 +0100
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-11-02 21:12 -0500
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-11-03 15:13 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-11-03 20:27 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-11-03 21:37 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-11-03 23:01 +0100
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-03 22:18 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-11-04 11:09 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> - 2026-11-03 22:51 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-03 23:02 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-11-03 22:54 -0500
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-11-03 23:02 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-11-03 22:58 -0500
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-11-07 16:04 -1000
NYT and Stratus (Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times) Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2026-11-08 05:59 -0800
Re: NYT and Stratus (Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times) Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-11-08 08:11 -1000
Re: NYT and Stratus (Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-08 21:31 +0000
Re: NYT and Stratus (Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times) Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2026-11-08 13:45 -0800
Re: NYT and Stratus (Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times) Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-11-08 12:21 -1000
Re: NYT and Stratus (Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-08 23:51 +0000
Re: NYT and Stratus (Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-11-08 20:33 -0700
Re: NYT and Stratus (Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times) c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-11-08 22:59 -0500
Re: NYT and Stratus (Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times) Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-11-09 07:32 -1000
Re: what's a mainframe, NYT and Stratus (Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times) John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-11-09 21:20 +0000
Re: what's a mainframe, NYT and Stratus (Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times) c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-11-09 22:07 -0500
Re: what's a mainframe, NYT and Stratus (Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times) Alexander Schreiber <als@usenet.thangorodrim.de> - 2026-11-10 10:37 +0100
Re: what's a mainframe, NYT and Stratus (Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times) Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2026-11-10 12:22 +0000
Re: what's a mainframe, NYT and Stratus (Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times) Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2026-11-10 06:31 -0800
Re: what's a mainframe, NYT and Stratus (Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-11-10 15:14 +0000
Re: what's a mainframe, NYT and Stratus (Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-11-10 07:35 -0700
Re: what's a mainframe, NYT and Stratus (Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-11-10 18:36 +0000
Re: what's a mainframe, NYT and Stratus (Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times) Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-11-10 07:29 -1000
Re: what's a mainframe, NYT and Stratus (Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times) Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-11-10 07:55 -1000
Re: what's a mainframe, NYT and Stratus (Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-11-10 12:19 -0700
Re: what's a mainframe, NYT and Stratus (Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-11-10 12:16 -0700
Re: what's a mainframe, NYT and Stratus (Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-11-10 18:36 +0000
Re: NYT and Stratus (Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times) Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-11-10 07:09 +0000
Re: NYT and Stratus (Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-10 07:27 +0000
Re: NYT and Stratus (Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times) Alexander Schreiber <als@usenet.thangorodrim.de> - 2026-11-10 10:50 +0100
Re: NYT and Stratus (Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-11-10 07:37 -0700
Re: NYT and Stratus (Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-11-10 15:18 +0000
Re: NYT and Stratus (Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times) Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-11-10 10:45 +0000
Re: NYT and Stratus (Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-11-10 15:16 +0000
Re: NYT and Stratus (Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-11-10 18:36 +0000
Re: NYT and Stratus (Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-09 04:42 +0000
Re: NYT and Stratus (Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times) Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-11-09 10:01 +0000
Re: NYT and Stratus (Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-11-09 11:08 +0000
Re: NYT and Stratus (Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-11-09 15:59 +0000
Re: NYT and Stratus (Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times) Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-11-09 09:38 +0800
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-11-08 08:32 -1000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-08 21:32 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-11-08 11:55 -1000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-11-08 21:49 -0500
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-11-04 15:34 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-11-04 11:08 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-11-04 07:36 -0700
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-11-05 00:13 +0800
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-11-05 20:58 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-11-03 02:42 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-03 02:49 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-11-03 02:53 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-03 04:44 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-11-03 07:15 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-03 20:27 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-11-03 23:41 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-11-04 10:58 +0100
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-11-04 11:19 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-11-04 19:51 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-11-05 00:19 +0100
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-05 01:24 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-11-05 15:48 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-11-05 19:17 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-04 21:52 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> - 2026-11-03 09:28 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-03 20:25 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> - 2026-11-03 20:53 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-03 21:57 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> - 2026-11-03 22:44 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-03 23:05 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-11-04 11:27 +0100
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-11-04 09:20 -0700
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-11-04 07:52 -0700
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-04 21:50 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-11-05 08:59 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-11-04 15:36 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-11-04 02:42 +0100
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-11-04 07:43 -0700
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-11-04 19:51 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-11-03 21:35 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-11-04 07:32 -0700
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-11-04 11:32 -0500
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-11-04 18:52 +0100
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-11-04 19:51 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-11-05 05:02 +0800
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2026-11-05 18:43 -0800
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-11-06 06:44 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Kaz Kylheku <046-301-5902@kylheku.com> - 2026-11-06 21:29 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-06 04:34 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-11-06 20:51 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Kaz Kylheku <046-301-5902@kylheku.com> - 2026-11-06 21:31 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-11-07 01:22 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-11-07 05:00 +0100
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-11-07 04:12 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-11-07 05:39 +0100
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-11-07 11:37 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-11-07 06:25 +0800
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-11-04 22:01 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-11-02 22:53 -0500
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-11-03 07:15 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-11-03 19:28 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-03 22:01 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-11-03 23:41 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-11-04 01:13 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-11-03 12:50 +0100
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-11-03 14:31 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2026-11-03 19:16 +0100
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-11-03 07:31 -0700
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-11-04 02:13 +0800
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2026-11-03 05:28 -0800
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-03 22:00 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-11-04 15:42 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-11-04 03:29 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-04 04:00 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-11-04 04:05 +0000
Re: [OT] what's a mini, Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-11-03 23:04 +0000
Re: [OT] what's a mini, Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-11-03 23:05 -0500
Re: [OT] what's a mini, Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-11-04 04:15 +0000
Re: [OT] what's a mini, Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-11-04 00:14 -0500
Re: [OT] what's a mini, Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-11-04 18:24 +0000
Re: [OT] what's a mini, Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-11-04 06:21 +0000
Re: [OT] what's a mini, Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-04 07:10 +0000
Re: [OT] what's a mini, Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-11-04 07:00 -0500
Re: [OT] what's a mini, Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-11-04 18:28 +0000
Re: [OT] what's a mini, Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2026-11-04 16:50 -0500
Re: [OT] what's a mini, Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-11-06 03:02 +0100
Re: [OT] what's a byte, was mini, Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-11-06 02:44 +0000
Re: [OT] what's a mini, Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-11-05 19:57 +0000
Re: [OT] what's a mini, Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-11-05 21:57 +0000
Re: [OT] what's a mini, Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-11-05 21:57 +0000
Re: [OT] what's a mini, Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-11-05 16:01 -0700
Re: [OT] what's a mini, Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-05 23:06 +0000
Re: [OT] what's a mini, Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-11-06 02:50 +0000
Re: [OT] what's a mini, Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-11-06 15:25 +0000
Re: [OT] what's a mini, Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2026-11-04 16:44 -0500
Re: [OT] what's a mini, Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-11-06 17:30 +0000
Re: [OT] what's a mini, Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-11-07 04:33 +0000
Re: [OT] what's a mini, Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-11-07 07:30 -0700
Re: [OT] what's a mini, Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-11-07 19:40 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-11-03 15:18 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-11-04 02:59 +0100
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-11-02 22:29 -0500
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-11-04 03:16 +0100
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-11-03 22:23 -0500
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-11-04 19:18 +0100
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-11-04 03:17 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-11-04 02:07 +0000
Re: [OT] highly reliable upgradable mainframes, Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-11-04 03:06 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-04 03:54 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-11-04 15:54 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-11-04 19:51 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-11-02 16:51 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-11-02 11:13 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-11-02 19:41 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-11-02 17:01 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-11-03 12:36 +0100
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-11-03 07:10 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2026-11-03 05:44 -0800
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-11-03 07:38 -0700
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-11-03 22:16 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-11-04 07:58 -0700
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-04 21:44 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-11-05 17:13 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-03 20:35 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-11-03 21:11 +0000
Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-11-04 03:09 +0000
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-11-02 10:52 +0000
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-11-02 15:35 +0000
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-11-02 10:47 +0000
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-11-02 20:16 +0800
Re: [OT] Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-11-02 13:58 +0000
Page 15 of 16 — ← Prev page 1 … 13 14 [15] 16 Next page →
| From | Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-11-04 19:18 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) |
| Message-ID | <11cfsti$85p2$3@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #236430 |
On 2026-11-04 04:23, c186282 wrote: > On 11/3/26 21:16, Janis Papanagnou wrote: [...] >> My children actually work "in science" where extremely >> demanding complex (hydrodynamic) simulation models are >> done; all done on such high-performance clusters. And >> this appears to be nowadays quite common as observable. > > Umm ... your KIDS are into hydrodynamics ? Are > they 'kids' anymore ? Sorry, I'm a non-native speaker, and we colloquially still talk about "our kids" hereabouts even though they are adult. It's actually nice if we not only have own insights into the topic from former times but also have first-hand contemporary information from our "kids". It lets us compare which things have changed meanwhile and which principles still apply. [...] >> >> There had always been non-local access, even back in >> the mainframe days. > > Yep - happened. However it's easier to guard/armor > ONE mainframe than a vast network. It's not only "happening"; what I was referring to was that services of computing centers were used through remote access by companies and institutes in the whole state. But I understand what you meant; and I principally agree. We sadly see the issues nowadays and extremely wide-spread, and in areas where it's even arguable why systems are connected through the Net in the first place. An actual attack case here is that _cooling_ shelves of supermarkets all over the country have been remotely reprogrammed to heat-up the goods up to 50°C; literally tons of food spoiled and needed to be disposed. The "IoT" (Internet of Things) I consider a nightmare, as far the the remote control is concerned, but also the sensoring of data from private domains and transfer into "clouds"! > >> There's a more general problem here; whether a single >> "box" or a "cluster", if it's connected to the Net it >> has to be solidified. > > DOES require a lot of 'solidification' - esp now. > > Otherwise you're just working for your worst enemies. Janis
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| From | antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-11-04 03:17 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) |
| Message-ID | <11ce840$26jrq$4@paganini.bofh.team> |
| In reply to | #236349 |
In alt.folklore.computers c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
> The age of the "mainframe" may be coming to an
> end alas. 'Cluster'/AI solutions are going to
> replace them for most uses. However science/govt
> still have uses for big ultra-powerful boxes
> for awhile anyway. SOME advantage in keeping
> access 'local' too - as opposed to spread all
> over the highly-vulnerable net.
AFAICS in science that is supercomputers and big servers
(which are frequently PC compatible). If anybody has
a mainframe that is because they got it from IBM for
free to teach mainframe skills (but that probably is
just one place).
--
Waldek Hebisch
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| From | antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-11-04 02:07 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) |
| Message-ID | <11ce402$26jrq$2@paganini.bofh.team> |
| In reply to | #236301 |
In alt.folklore.computers The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> That's not quite true. First of all old IBM COBOL and RPG is well
> supported on modern µP based hardware. and second mainframes are still
> in use where enormous numbers of I/O operations are called for.
>
> "Mainframes remain the invisible backbone of the global economy in the
> 21st century, handling 90% of credit card transactions, powering 92 of
> the top 100 banks, and managing 68% of production IT workloads globally
> while accounting for just a fraction of total IT spending."
>
> Mainframes remain cost effective alternatives for very large scale low
> complexcity transactions
The above is mostly IBM advertising. When I looked at mainframe
technical data IBM put there some impressive numbers. But I think
that is is rather rare that IBM mainframes are best fit for the
problem. AFAICS main IBM technical advantage was in their
mutichip module packing technology: they put there several chips
with fast interconnect and efficiently removed heat from the
chips. But modern PC compatible servers have impressive
numbers too. It that is enough than IBM offer is just too
expensive. OTOH once you need significantly more than a
single IBM module you need interconnect that is available
from many vendors and IBM does not have specifice advantage.
Concerning usege, given unit prices and IBM revenue it seems
that there are at most tens of thousend mainframes in use.
OTOH big PC compatible servers go in milions. Single high
end PC core is more powerful comutationaly than mainfame core
and much cheaper. Mainframe may have some advantage in
memory bandwidth, but not so large to overcome larger number
of units of PC compatible servers. In effect, mainframes
are a tiny part of "production" compute power, slightly
larger when one looks memory bandwidth (which is more or
less what modern IO is about), but that is still small part.
Several banks uses mainframes, but it is likely that those
are traditional applications (mostly accounting style).
In finacial sector there is now need for massive numeric
computations (stock valuation, determining insurance
prices), AFAIK this in frequently programmed in C++ and
does not run on mainframes. There is massive data
mining, it could run on mainframes, but it can also
run on other machines which are more cost effective.
I do not have actual data, but indirect informations suggest
that smaller banks in my country do not use mainframes
(national bank in the past used them and may still use them).
So even is supposed mainframe strongholds there is some
erosion.
And why customers use mainframes? That is mostly legacy and
risk avidance. Note that IBM in long time produced almost
no meaningful benchmarks and they forbid customers publishing
benchmarks. It is clear that they do not want those numbers
to be known, because they would show that mainframes are not
so good as their propaganda says. Also, several years ago
there was Turbo-Hercules project which offered mainframe
emulation at something like 800 MIPS and IO essentily
determined by hardware running emulation. Turbo-Hercules
wanted IBM to licence zOS to their clients. If IBM were
confident that their hardware is so good thay should
welcome Turbo-Hercules: it offered entry level systems
from which users could upgrade to real thing. And they
would get licencing fees from zOS. But IBM refused to
licence zOS on any hardware not produced by them. And it
is easy to say why: it is not performace but effort needed
to switch from zOS to something else that keeps their
customers from migration. With zOS available on
emulated machines customer base for thir systems would
shrink. Also, customers would see that PC hardware even
with overhead of emulation can handle many traditional
mainframe loads, which could motivate some of them to
migrate.
--
Waldek Hebisch
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| From | John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-11-04 03:06 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] highly reliable upgradable mainframes, Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) |
| Message-ID | <11ce7fv$17a6$2@gal.iecc.com> |
| In reply to | #236423 |
According to Waldek Hebisch <antispam@fricas.org>: >> Mainframes remain cost effective alternatives for very large scale low >> complexcity transactions > >The above is mostly IBM advertising. When I looked at mainframe >technical data IBM put there some impressive numbers. But I think >that is is rather rare that IBM mainframes are best fit for the >problem. AFAICS main IBM technical advantage was in their >mutichip module packing technology: they put there several chips >with fast interconnect and efficiently removed heat from the >chips. .... They do that but it's just part of the overall system. IBM mainframes can have hardware and software upgrades while they are running, without rebooting. I have heard of one system that ran ten years between restarts and then only because someone unplugged something he shouldn't. -- Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
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| From | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-11-04 03:54 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) |
| Message-ID | <11cea8v$c66a$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #236423 |
On Wed, 4 Nov 2026 02:07:00 -0000 (UTC), Waldek Hebisch wrote: > When I looked at mainframe technical data IBM put there some > impressive numbers. But I think that is is rather rare that IBM > mainframes are best fit for the problem. IBM has been coasting on inertia since the 1980s. Consider: in 1980, there were something like 5 (?) different computer companies in the mainframe business. Two decades later, that had dropped down to 1. IBM went through many years of losing money and laying off staff left and right. Whatever mainframe business they have left is only a shadow of what it once was. > Mainframe may have some advantage in memory bandwidth ... They would have no hardware advantage in anything. Silicon technology is driven by the mass market, and the mass market today is dominated by PC-based technology, and has been for the last 2-3 decades. As for mainframe software--the less said about that, the better. > And why customers use mainframes? That is mostly legacy and risk > av[o]idance. The risk-avoidance part is itself a dead-end. Businesses need to adapt to changing circumstances, and financial businesses (banks etc) are no more immune to this need than anybody else. Mainframes running COBOL programs are inherently inflexible and difficult and expensive to adapt. Companies that are stubborn and insist on clinging to old, mainframe-oriented, batch-centric ways of doing things are going to find themselves out-competed in the market. So one way or the other, all that old code disappears from production use.
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| From | scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-11-04 15:54 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) |
| Message-ID | <bzIGS.199924$MmU5.125968@fx44.iad> |
| In reply to | #236433 |
Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?= <ldo@nz.invalid> writes: >On Wed, 4 Nov 2026 02:07:00 -0000 (UTC), Waldek Hebisch wrote: > >> When I looked at mainframe technical data IBM put there some >> impressive numbers. But I think that is is rather rare that IBM >> mainframes are best fit for the problem. > >IBM has been coasting on inertia since the 1980s. > >Consider: in 1980, there were something like 5 (?) different computer There were a BUNCH of different mainframe companies. >companies in the mainframe business. Two decades later, that had dropped >down to 1. Both the Burroughs large systems and Univac systems still exist and still sell systems (albeit emulated, the last custom CMOS systems were developed a decade ago).
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| From | Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-11-04 19:51 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) |
| Message-ID | <81MGS.199930$MmU5.140818@fx44.iad> |
| In reply to | #236481 |
On 2026-11-04, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote: > Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?= <ldo@nz.invalid> writes: > >> On Wed, 4 Nov 2026 02:07:00 -0000 (UTC), Waldek Hebisch wrote: >> >>> When I looked at mainframe technical data IBM put there some >>> impressive numbers. But I think that is is rather rare that IBM >>> mainframes are best fit for the problem. >> >> IBM has been coasting on inertia since the 1980s. >> >> Consider: in 1980, there were something like 5 (?) different computer > > There were a BUNCH of different mainframe companies. :-) A couple of mergers prior to that, I recall them being referred to as "Snow White and the Seven Dwarves". -- /~\ Charlie Gibbs | In this world there are \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | two kinds of people: X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | 1. Those who can extrapolate / \ if you read it the right way. | from incomplete data.
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| From | Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-11-02 16:51 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) |
| Message-ID | <Dc3GS.155667$DBw4.33229@fx24.iad> |
| In reply to | #236293 |
On 2026-11-02, Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> wrote: > On 2026-11-02 07:28, c186282 wrote: >> [...] >> >> WOULD love one or two of those big black IBM >> mainframe units. Not sure what I'd DO with >> them, but they'd be SO cool ! > > :-) > > There's a couple hardware types I'd have liked to have - > and I'd also not know what to do with them but to wallow > in memories. I know what you mean. I don't think I'll ever actually use that pair of tape drives I have sitting in the hangar - but they're a good conversation piece. -- /~\ Charlie Gibbs | In this world there are \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | two kinds of people: X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | 1. Those who can extrapolate / \ if you read it the right way. | from incomplete data.
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-11-02 11:13 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) |
| Message-ID | <11c9r8v$2oln7$6@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #236291 |
On 02/11/2026 06:28, c186282 wrote: > I can believe "board of directors" ... but not so much the hands-on > people at DEC. If your hands-on is building boards out of TTL in 100 quantities it isn't necessarily relevant to competing with mass produced motherboards and Intel chipsets made in millions. Or designing you own µprocessor. PCs just swept the opposition away. And Microsoft surfed the wave to corporate dominance in an era of me-too hardware. Unix staggered on for multi-user systems till Linus said 'fuck this for a game of soldiers'... Even ARM was initially a desperate attempt to create s 'better 6502' for the ultra low end home/educational computers, designed to use as few transistors as a struggling British company could afford to have fabbed. In the tradition of proper engineering it was 'doing for five bob what any damn fool can do for a quid'...and its ultra low hardware footprint and elegant instruction set made it first of all incredibly cheap for embedded use, and ultimately de facto for low power consumption. An entirely unintentional side effect of trying to make it CHEAP. Like Microsoft, it happened to be standing in the right place at the right time. People like to represent themselves as genius visionaries: But my experience is more that its a simple question of being in the right place at the right time, and the only smarts is in recognising that. The rise of LSI in the 70s made minicomputers possible. The rise of mass produced microprocessors in the 1980s made them irrelevant. And the 90s was really all about software. -- "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." Jonathan Swift.
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-11-02 19:41 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) |
| Message-ID | <nks7agF2rmsU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #236300 |
On Mon, 2 Nov 2026 11:13:35 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote: > The rise of LSI in the 70s made minicomputers possible. The rise of mass > produced microprocessors in the 1980s made them irrelevant. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PALM_processor I've posted it before but the PALM was IBM's last shot at LSIs for low end business systems. The 5120 successor, the System/23 used the Intel 8085.
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| From | John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-11-02 17:01 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) |
| Message-ID | <11cafl4$2f8s$1@gal.iecc.com> |
| In reply to | #236291 |
According to c186282 <c186282@nnada.net>: >On 11/1/26 21:16, John Levine wrote: >> According to c186282 <c186282@nnada.net>: >>> Umm ... NOT so unusual for the times :-) >>> >>> Gotta wonder. Big powerful cutting-edge corp >>> with good history suddenly crashes and burns ...... >> >> Sheesh, it's not like it's hard to find out what happened. The world of microprocessors >> was different from the world of minicomputers, DEC's management never figured that out, >> and its board of directors didn't either. > > I can believe "board of directors" ... but not > so much the hands-on people at DEC. ... >> Gordon Bell wrote this afterword for the "DEC is Dead" book which explains it well. >> >> https://gordonbell.azurewebsites.net/CGB%20Files/DEC_Is_Dead_Bell_Appendix_Schein_Book.pdf > > One guy's opinions, probably had a grudge. As usual, > it's gonna be more complicated, subtle, than that. Did you read it? He agrees with what you said. The staff was fantastic, the upper management and board failed. I presume you know who he was, not just some random guy. -- Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
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| From | "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-11-03 12:36 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) |
| Message-ID | <nktva3Fahr1U6@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #236291 |
On 2026-11-02 07:28, c186282 wrote:
> WOULD love one or two of those big black IBM
> mainframe units. Not sure what I'd DO with
> them, but they'd be SO cool ! Anyway they do
> have plenty of customers - govt/uni and big
> industry. Sometimes you NEED a 'mainframe'.
Banks.
--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.
ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺.
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| From | Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-11-03 07:10 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) |
| Message-ID | <11cc1ck$3haor$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #236288 |
John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> schrieb: > According to c186282 <c186282@nnada.net>: >> Umm ... NOT so unusual for the times :-) >> >> Gotta wonder. Big powerful cutting-edge corp >> with good history suddenly crashes and burns ...... > > Sheesh, it's not like it's hard to find out what happened. The world of microprocessors > was different from the world of minicomputers, DEC's management never figured that out, > and its board of directors didn't either. > > Gordon Bell wrote this afterword for the "DEC is Dead" book which explains it well. > > https://gordonbell.azurewebsites.net/CGB%20Files/DEC_Is_Dead_Bell_Appendix_Schein_Book.pdf Reading "DEC is Dead", one gets the distinct impression that Gordon Bell walked on water as a computer architect, but with the benefit of hindsight, this was not the case. The specifics of the VAX (especially its addressing modes) made sure that it would not scale very well towards higher peformance. -- This USENET posting was made without artificial intelligence, artificial impertinence, artificial arrogance, artificial stupidity, artificial flavorings or artificial colorants.
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| From | Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-11-03 05:44 -0800 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) |
| Message-ID | <11ccogj$3pu4t$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #236354 |
On 11/2/2026 23:10, Thomas Koenig wrote: > John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> schrieb: >> According to c186282 <c186282@nnada.net>: >>> Umm ... NOT so unusual for the times :-) >>> >>> Gotta wonder. Big powerful cutting-edge corp >>> with good history suddenly crashes and burns ...... >> >> Sheesh, it's not like it's hard to find out what happened. The world of microprocessors >> was different from the world of minicomputers, DEC's management never figured that out, >> and its board of directors didn't either. >> >> Gordon Bell wrote this afterword for the "DEC is Dead" book which explains it well. >> >> https://gordonbell.azurewebsites.net/CGB%20Files/DEC_Is_Dead_Bell_Appendix_Schein_Book.pdf > > Reading "DEC is Dead", one gets the distinct impression that Gordon > Bell walked on water as a computer architect, but with the benefit > of hindsight, this was not the case. > > The specifics of the VAX (especially its addressing modes) made > sure that it would not scale very well towards higher peformance. The VAX was designed under a premise that efficient code would be hand written; thus you wanted an instruction set that made it easy to program in assembly code. And the VAX instruction set was indeed the easiest instruction set I have ever used. But the RISC instruction sets could be done in a much simpler hardware package, allowing for smaller and cheaper chips, and the compilers became much better (because if the instruction set is a nightmare, everything needs to be compiled). As Moore's Law has allowed more complex chips, the compute engines are no longer simple. Pipelines, register renaming, speculative execution. If you want to gain some appreciation for just how complex it is, spend a couple of days on comp.arch, where retired CPU designers hack their own instruction set designs into implementation of large FPGAs. -- Lars Poulsen - an old geek in Santa Barbara, California
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| From | Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-11-03 07:38 -0700 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) |
| Message-ID | <11ccrl5$3r5mg$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #236369 |
On 11/3/26 06:44, Lars Poulsen wrote: > On 11/2/2026 23:10, Thomas Koenig wrote: >> John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> schrieb: >>> According to c186282 <c186282@nnada.net>: >>>> Umm ... NOT so unusual for the times :-) >>>> >>>> Gotta wonder. Big powerful cutting-edge corp >>>> with good history suddenly crashes and burns ...... >>> >>> Sheesh, it's not like it's hard to find out what happened. The world >>> of microprocessors >>> was different from the world of minicomputers, DEC's management never >>> figured that out, >>> and its board of directors didn't either. >>> >>> Gordon Bell wrote this afterword for the "DEC is Dead" book which >>> explains it well. >>> >>> https://gordonbell.azurewebsites.net/CGB%20Files/ >>> DEC_Is_Dead_Bell_Appendix_Schein_Book.pdf >> >> Reading "DEC is Dead", one gets the distinct impression that Gordon >> Bell walked on water as a computer architect, but with the benefit >> of hindsight, this was not the case. >> >> The specifics of the VAX (especially its addressing modes) made >> sure that it would not scale very well towards higher peformance. > > The VAX was designed under a premise that efficient code would be hand > written; thus you wanted an instruction set that made it easy to program > in assembly code. And the VAX instruction set was indeed the easiest > instruction set I have ever used. But the RISC instruction sets could be > done in a much simpler hardware package, allowing for smaller and > cheaper chips, and the compilers became much better (because if the > instruction set is a nightmare, everything needs to be compiled). > > As Moore's Law has allowed more complex chips, the compute engines are > no longer simple. Pipelines, register renaming, speculative execution. > If you want to gain some appreciation for just how complex it is, spend > a couple of days on comp.arch, where retired CPU designers hack their > own instruction set designs into implementation of large FPGAs. > The Vax instruction set was a marvel. The only problem I had was my overthinking: "should I use the two-address or the three-address instruction here?" where in reality it didn't matter.
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| From | antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-11-03 22:16 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) |
| Message-ID | <11cdmf1$20j8s$1@paganini.bofh.team> |
| In reply to | #236369 |
Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> wrote:
> On 11/2/2026 23:10, Thomas Koenig wrote:
>>
>> Reading "DEC is Dead", one gets the distinct impression that Gordon
>> Bell walked on water as a computer architect, but with the benefit
>> of hindsight, this was not the case.
>>
>> The specifics of the VAX (especially its addressing modes) made
>> sure that it would not scale very well towards higher peformance.
>
> The VAX was designed under a premise that efficient code would be hand
> written; thus you wanted an instruction set that made it easy to program
> in assembly code. And the VAX instruction set was indeed the easiest
> instruction set I have ever used. But the RISC instruction sets could be
> done in a much simpler hardware package, allowing for smaller and
> cheaper chips, and the compilers became much better (because if the
> instruction set is a nightmare, everything needs to be compiled).
I disagree with "instruction set is a nightmare". I recently was
working with Arm64 and Risc-V assembly, earlier with several
other assemblers. There were some irritations, that things which
on other machines were done using single instructions needed
multiple instrunctions. And there were some irritations with
assemblers, which would synthetize some instructions, while
refusing some other "obvoius" things. For example good looking
add x0, x1, #-5
is rejected by Arm64 assembler and one have to write
sub x0, x1, #5
Also, constants may need multiple instructions to load into
a register. In case of Risc-V there is no autoincrement and
autodecrement so one have to use two instructions in place of
one. But in general, once programmer understands principle that
to operate on data from memory one need to load it into register
and that the similar thing applies to bigger constants, then
programming is rather easy. One learns about irritations
and after rather short time they are no longer a problem.
And good assembler could make things simpler, for example
offer common 2-3 instruction seqences as pseudoinstructions.
Older RISC-s had delayed jumps, that could be an irritation,
but I think that programmers can relatively easily to adapt
to this. I have no first hand experience with VAX, but
comparing with 8-bitters, which were quite frequently
programmed in assembler I find RISC-s much nicer. In a
sense for me main effort in assembly programming goes into
register allocation. On Z80 or 8086 that requires effort
as there is usually too few registers to keep crucial data
in them. 360, amd64, arm32 are essentially OK with 16
registers, need to spill is much rarer. So I guess VAX
would be OK too. Comparably RISC-s with 32 registers are
comfortable (I am very unlikely too need more in
hand-written assembly). Typically RISC-s need more
instructions than other processors to do the same job.
But differences are not that big and there seem to be
modest amount of instruction patterns responsible for
increasing number of instruction, so assember probably
could hide most of the difference.
Also, while RISC-s need more instructions, typically it
rather strightforward to choose correct instructions.
Comparably instruction set with many variants of
instructions and with "interesting" addressing modes
invites programmer to spend effort searching for best
sequence of instructions. VAX is nice due to othogonality,
but some other instruction sets have considerable
irregulaties, complicating choice of instructions.
--
Waldek Hebisch
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| From | Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-11-04 07:58 -0700 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) |
| Message-ID | <11cfh6u$p8e2$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #236406 |
On 11/3/26 15:16, Waldek Hebisch wrote: > Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> wrote: >> But the RISC instruction sets could be >> done in a much simpler hardware package, allowing for smaller and >> cheaper chips, and the compilers became much better (because if the >> instruction set is a nightmare, everything needs to be compiled). > > I disagree with "instruction set is a nightmare". Used to be a nightmare. Something like putting delay slots after branch instructions. It seemed like each RISC instructiion set had its own quirks.
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| From | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-11-04 21:44 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) |
| Message-ID | <11cg8v0$12d33$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #236476 |
On Wed, 4 Nov 2026 07:58:35 -0700, Peter Flass wrote: > On 11/3/26 15:16, Waldek Hebisch wrote: >> >> I disagree with "instruction set is a nightmare". > > Used to be a nightmare. Something like putting delay slots after > branch instructions. There was this brief time when it seemed like the hardware would be simpler if this was done. That window was just a few years in about the mid-1980s, just wide enough to catch SPARC and MIPS in the net (maybe PA-RISC as well?). By the time IBM brought out POWER just a year or two later, they no longer felt the need for that.
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| From | Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-11-05 17:13 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) |
| Message-ID | <11cidgf$1qg2p$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #236509 |
Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> schrieb: > On Wed, 4 Nov 2026 07:58:35 -0700, Peter Flass wrote: > >> On 11/3/26 15:16, Waldek Hebisch wrote: >>> >>> I disagree with "instruction set is a nightmare". >> >> Used to be a nightmare. Something like putting delay slots after >> branch instructions. > > There was this brief time when it seemed like the hardware would be > simpler if this was done. That window was just a few years in about > the mid-1980s, just wide enough to catch SPARC and MIPS in the net > (maybe PA-RISC as well?). The 801 had delayed branch instructions, but they also had a version without, so you didn't have to put in a NOP. Same as HP-PA. -- This USENET posting was made without artificial intelligence, artificial impertinence, artificial arrogance, artificial stupidity, artificial flavorings or artificial colorants.
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| From | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-11-03 20:35 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Dead DEC Punch card times (was Re: Taking Speedy too seriously) |
| Message-ID | <11cdgii$46jl$4@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #236354 |
On Tue, 3 Nov 2026 07:10:13 -0000 (UTC), Thomas Koenig wrote: > The specifics of the VAX (especially its addressing modes) made sure > that it would not scale very well towards higher peformance. You have to remember the time (mid-1970s) when it was being designed; RISC was just beginning to make its presence felt, and it wouldn’t have been clear which approach would have been the best for the next decade or more -- who could see ahead that far? At that point, the world was still full of awkwardly-designed instruction sets that were annoying to program for; the PDP-11 was praised as being a major step forward in this regard, and the plan for VAX was to make it even more so. This sort of thing keeps being discussed on comp.arch. The success of RISC depended on having lots of CPU registers (and later caching as well), and you had to have good compiler technology to manage these hardware resources. The economics of doing all this properly took a few more years to fall into place.
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