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25 Years: How the Web began

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  25 Years: How the Web began Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2015-12-21 15:08 -0800
    Re: 25 Years: How the Web began philo <philo@privacy.net> - 2015-12-22 20:15 -0600
    Re: 25 Years: How the Web began hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-12-22 19:24 -0800
      Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2015-12-22 23:13 -0500
        Re: 25 Years: How the Web began hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-12-23 07:47 -0800
          Re: 25 Years: How the Web began mausg@mail.com - 2015-12-23 17:12 +0000
            Re: 25 Years: How the Web began "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-12-23 12:13 -0600
              Re: 25 Years: How the Web began hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-12-23 10:34 -0800
              Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Alan Bowler <atbowler@thinkage.ca> - 2016-01-05 13:27 -0500
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-01-05 11:25 -0800
                  Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-01-05 12:34 -0800
          Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2015-12-23 12:48 -0500
            Re: 25 Years: How the Web began JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2015-12-23 14:42 -0600
              Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-12-23 21:25 +0000
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2015-12-23 18:07 -0600
                  Re: 25 Years: How the Web began hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-12-26 21:07 -0800
                    Re: 25 Years: How the Web began "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2015-12-27 02:39 -0600
                      Re: 25 Years: How the Web began jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-12-27 15:48 +0000
                      The Source, was: 25 Years: How the Web began danny burstein <dannyb@panix.com> - 2015-12-27 18:19 +0000
                        Re: The Source, was: 25 Years: How the Web began Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2015-12-27 12:53 -0800
                    Re: 25 Years: How the Web began mausg@mail.com - 2015-12-27 10:07 +0000
                    Re: 25 Years: How the Web began "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-02 16:05 -0500
                      Re: 25 Years: How the Web began "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2016-01-03 17:17 +1100
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began mausg@mail.com - 2015-12-24 09:41 +0000
                  Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-12-24 11:06 +0100
          Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2015-12-23 10:12 -0800
        Re: 25 Years: How the Web began tracymnelson@gmail.com - 2015-12-23 12:07 -0800
        Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-12-24 00:39 +0100
      Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-12-23 11:37 +0000
        Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-12-23 17:18 +0000
      Re: 25 Years: How the Web began jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-12-23 13:57 +0000
        Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Lawrence Statton <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2015-12-23 09:09 -0600
          Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-12-24 00:55 +0100
            Re: 25 Years: How the Web began jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-12-24 13:44 +0000
              Re: 25 Years: How the Web began "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-12-25 05:55 +1100
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-12-25 15:08 +0000
                  Re: 25 Years: How the Web began "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-12-26 06:42 +1100
              Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-12-24 20:24 -0800
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2015-12-24 23:41 -0500
                  Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-12-24 21:16 -0800
                  Re: 25 Years: How the Web began mausg@mail.com - 2015-12-25 10:46 +0000
                    Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2015-12-25 13:43 -0500
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Stan Barr <plan.b@bluesomatic.org> - 2015-12-25 07:48 +0000
                  Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Robert Swindells <rjs@fdy2.co.uk> - 2015-12-25 10:33 +0000
              Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-12-25 08:35 +0100
      Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-12-24 00:26 +0100
    Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-12-23 11:22 +0000
      Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Andy Burns <usenet.feb2014@adslpipe.co.uk> - 2015-12-23 11:43 +0000
    Re: 25 Years: How the Web began hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-12-27 18:04 -0800
      Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-12-28 02:51 +0000
        Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2015-12-27 22:09 -0800
          Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-01-03 05:27 +0000
            Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-01-03 05:30 -0800
              Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-03 14:14 +0000
              Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-03 11:05 -0500
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-03 18:08 +0000
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-01-03 22:14 -0600
                  Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2016-01-04 04:40 +0000
                  Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-04 16:10 -0500
                    Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2016-01-04 21:11 +0000
                      Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-01-04 17:15 -0600
                        Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2016-01-05 04:01 +0000
                          Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-01-05 04:29 +0000
                            Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2016-01-05 05:41 +0000
                              Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-01-05 18:46 +0000
                          Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-01-05 12:24 -0600
                            Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-01-05 18:57 +0000
                              Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2016-01-05 19:09 +0000
                                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-01-05 17:44 -0600
                          Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2016-01-08 19:19 +0000
            Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-01-03 20:34 -0800
        Re: 25 Years: How the Web began hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-12-28 07:54 -0800
          Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Andy Burns <usenet.feb2014@adslpipe.co.uk> - 2015-12-28 16:21 +0000
            Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2015-12-28 12:39 -0800
              Re: 25 Years: How the Web began hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-12-28 13:11 -0800
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2015-12-28 13:35 -0800
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-12-28 21:43 +0000
              Re: 25 Years: How the Web began "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-12-28 15:37 -0600
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-12-29 04:35 +0000
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2016-01-06 21:25 +0000
            Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2016-01-06 21:13 +0000
              Re: 25 Years: How the Web began "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-06 19:35 -0500
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-01-09 21:03 -0800
              Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-01-07 06:41 +0000
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-07 09:02 +0000
                  Re: 25 Years: How the Web began "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-07 06:41 -0500
                  Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-01-09 21:06 -0800
      Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2015-12-28 04:38 -0400
        Re: 25 Years: How the Web began rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) - 2015-12-28 11:38 +0000
        Re: 25 Years: How the Web began cb@elaine.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen) - 2015-12-28 13:52 +0000
          Re: 25 Years: How the Web began mausg@mail.com - 2015-12-28 15:46 +0000
          Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2015-12-28 15:40 -0400
        Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Stan Barr <plan.b@bluesomatic.org> - 2015-12-28 16:26 +0000
          Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2015-12-28 15:46 -0400
            Re: 25 Years: How the Web began hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-12-28 12:50 -0800
              Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2015-12-29 02:56 -0400
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Stan Barr <plan.b@bluesomatic.org> - 2015-12-29 07:56 +0000
              Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2016-01-06 21:40 +0000
      Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2015-12-28 08:24 -0800

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#155440 — 25 Years: How the Web began

25 Years: How the Web began
http://www.zdnet.com/article/25-years-how-the-web-began/

First webserver in US was on (CERN sister lab) SLAC VM370 system
http://www.slac.stanford.edu/history/earlyweb/history.shtml
and
http://www.slac.stanford.edu/history/earlyweb/firstpages.shtml

trivia: GML was invented at science center in 1969, a decade later it
morphs into ISO standard SGML, and after another decade it morphs into
HTML at CERN. some past posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#sgml
and science center
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#545tech


We were working with NSF director to interconnect the NSF supercomputer
labs and were suppose to get $20M. Then congress cuts the budget, some
number of other things happen, and finally NSF releases an RFP (based
largely on what we already have running). Internal politics prevent us
from bidding. The NSF director tries to help by writing the company a
letter copying the CEO, but that just makes the internal politics
worse. As regional networks connect into the sites, it morphs into the
NSFNET backbone (precursor to the modern internet). some old email
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/lhwemail.html#nsfnet

During part of this, the communication group was spreading internal
misinformation about how they might be able to play.  Somebody collects
a lot of their email and forwards it to us ... small part, heavily
snipped and redacted to protect the guilty:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006w.html#email870109


-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

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#155525

On 12/21/2015 05:08 PM, Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:
>
> 25 Years: How the Web began
> http://www.zdnet.com/article/25-years-how-the-web-began/
>
> First webserver in US was on (CERN sister lab) SLAC VM370 system
> http://www.slac.stanford.edu/history/earlyweb/history.shtml
> and
> http://www.slac.stanford.edu/history/earlyweb/firstpages.shtml
>
> trivia: GML was invented at science center in 1969, a decade later it
> morphs into ISO standard SGML, and after another decade it morphs into
> HTML at CERN. some past posts
> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#sgml
> and science center
> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#545tech
>
>
> We were working with NSF director to interconnect the NSF supercomputer
> labs and were suppose to get $20M. Then congress cuts the budget, some
> number of other things happen, and finally NSF releases an RFP (based
> largely on what we already have running). Internal politics prevent us
> from bidding. The NSF director tries to help by writing the company a
> letter copying the CEO, but that just makes the internal politics
> worse. As regional networks connect into the sites, it morphs into the
> NSFNET backbone (precursor to the modern internet). some old email
> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/lhwemail.html#nsfnet
>
> During part of this, the communication group was spreading internal
> misinformation about how they might be able to play.  Somebody collects
> a lot of their email and forwards it to us ... small part, heavily
> snipped and redacted to protect the guilty:
> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006w.html#email870109
>
>



Yep. I still recall my wife getting a computer in 1995 and using IE-2 to 
get on the "net" ...It kind of scared me.

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#155526

On Monday, December 21, 2015 at 6:08:08 PM UTC-5, Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:

> 25 Years: How the Web began

I'm trying to remmeber when the web got a 'critical mass' and began
to be _widely_ used by the general public.

In looking at some old magazines, it seems that around the year 1997
first AOL references, then web addresses began to appear.  At that
point I don't think e-commerce had started, but the web might have
had catalogs and easier GUI access.

I believe the web grew very rapidly after 2000, perhaps needing only
five years to become commonplace instead of a new thing.  I think
that's rather remarkable for the general public to latch onto something
so quickly.

Of course, the web's predecessors, such as text based file sharing,
TELNET remote access, email, and such were around for a while.  I'm
thinking of the widespread general public's "connection" to the web
with GUI access.

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#155528

On Tue, 22 Dec 2015, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:

> On Monday, December 21, 2015 at 6:08:08 PM UTC-5, Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:
>
>> 25 Years: How the Web began
>
> I'm trying to remmeber when the web got a 'critical mass' and began
> to be _widely_ used by the general public.
>
I think by 1994 things had changed a lot.

The universities here only got it about 1989, and then a year or two later 
the first local ISP (a non-profit, I think because they couldn't imagine 
it as a money maker) appeared, you'd pay $25 or so for a relatively few 
number of hours per month.  Their first "servers" were just some computers 
in a closet, so I can imagine they started with just a few phone lines. 
Others followed.  The only reason I knew about that ISP at the time was 
because of a listing in "Boardwatch" magazine, that had started out about 
BBS systems, but was then covering the emerging ISP field.

In 1994, we started hearing about the "internet" in the local paper.  One 
university women's group had discovered there was porn there, and thought 
something should be done, rather than seeing the potential.

In Ottawa, the Ottawa Freenet started up, actually I think it was in 1993, 
and they started with a boom, a big influx of users who clearly knew what 
the internet was, but had previously had no access (or perhaps more likely 
had access at school or business, but not at home).  They had to build up 
really fast because of the growth of the user base.

By 1995, big companies like cable and telephone were starting to offer 
internet.  Some had come in by buying an existing ISP, they had grown in 
number since 1990, and memory says there was already consolidating, 
mid-tier ISPs buying up some of the other ones.  The landscape changed so 
by 2000, about 2 of the earliest ISPs still remained intact (the others 
bought up by larger companies).

And in 1995, it wsa pretty easy to sample things at computer shows and 
even movie festivals.  No, it didnt' mean everyone was online, but that 
things had changed quite a bit from 1990 or before that.

The Montreal Freenet went online in August of 1997, after three years of 
planning and construction, and failed after four months.  They had decided 
to go for a big system, having seen Ottawa have growth problems at the 
beginning, but had to wait for government funding.  In the meantime, the 
internet had become much more accessible, if still relatively expensive 
for the time you got.  So the Montreal Freenet had expected a large influx 
right away, and that never came.  The people who knew about access had 
already found it elsewhere, leaving people who had little money, or people 
who didn't really know about the internet yet.  And that latter group was 
going to take too much effort to convert into users.

   Michael

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#155541

On Tuesday, December 22, 2015 at 11:10:23 PM UTC-5, Michael Black wrote:

 
> The universities here only got it about 1989, and then a year or two later 
> the first local ISP (a non-profit, I think because they couldn't imagine 
> it as a money maker) appeared, you'd pay $25 or so for a relatively few 
> number of hours per month.  Their first "servers" were just some computers 
> in a closet, so I can imagine they started with just a few phone lines. 
> Others followed.  The only reason I knew about that ISP at the time was 
> because of a listing in "Boardwatch" magazine, that had started out about 
> BBS systems, but was then covering the emerging ISP field.

I remember Boardwatch magazine (and its opinionated editor).  I
think he was based in Columbine which later gained notoriety.

Also, a lot of BBS users were very interesting in expanding
beyond the BBS or BBS networks into the Internet, even if
they weren't sure what it was, they wanted in.  "The Internet"
became a popular buzzword by about 1988.  It generated a 
lot of excitement among techies.

There was a magazine, Wired, touting it.  I remember noticing
that all the authors had @ email addresses.  Some of the BBS's
began to offer email connectivity.

As I recall it, in the 1990s, there was an Internet available, but
it was mostly for technies who knew how to use a "shell account".
Most of the user interfaces were Unix oriented, with terse
command-line based operatives.  To access Usenet, there was
something "rn" or "trn".  At that time, it wasn't really used
by the widespread general public, even though the use of
personal computers was growing.

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#155544

On 2015-12-23, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 22, 2015 at 11:10:23 PM UTC-5, Michael Black wrote:
>
>  
>> The universities here only got it about 1989, and then a year or two later 
>> the first local ISP (a non-profit, I think because they couldn't imagine 
>> it as a money maker) appeared, you'd pay $25 or so for a relatively few 
>> number of hours per month.  Their first "servers" were just some computers 
>> in a closet, so I can imagine they started with just a few phone lines. 
>> Others followed.  The only reason I knew about that ISP at the time was 
>> because of a listing in "Boardwatch" magazine, that had started out about 
>> BBS systems, but was then covering the emerging ISP field.
>
> I remember Boardwatch magazine (and its opinionated editor).  I
> think he was based in Columbine which later gained notoriety.
>
> Also, a lot of BBS users were very interesting in expanding
> beyond the BBS or BBS networks into the Internet, even if
> they weren't sure what it was, they wanted in.  "The Internet"
> became a popular buzzword by about 1988.  It generated a 
> lot of excitement among techies.
>
> There was a magazine, Wired, touting it.  I remember noticing
> that all the authors had @ email addresses.  Some of the BBS's
> began to offer email connectivity.
>
> As I recall it, in the 1990s, there was an Internet available, but
> it was mostly for technies who knew how to use a "shell account".
> Most of the user interfaces were Unix oriented, with terse
> command-line based operatives.  To access Usenet, there was
> something "rn" or "trn".  At that time, it wasn't really used
> by the widespread general public, even though the use of
> personal computers was growing.

I had an Amiga, and there was a lot of hope that it would manage the
internet, so I heard of a lecturev on it at St. Andrews Collage in 
Booterstown, so, as it was an open meeting, I went and sat down, about 
30 years older than the rest of the audience. A man wandered in and 
explained how to do it, Andy Mowatt, I think. From that it was all downhill
to Facebook.

-- 
greymaus
 .
  .
...

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#155551

<mausg@mail.com> wrote:

> I had an Amiga, and there was a lot of hope that it would manage the
> internet, so I heard of a lecturev on it at St. Andrews Collage in
> Booterstown, so, as it was an open meeting, I went and sat down, about
> 30 years older than the rest of the audience. A man wandered in and
> explained how to do it, Andy Mowatt, I think. From that it was all 
> downhill
> to Facebook.

If one had $100 in Time-Life stock in, say 1985, does anyone have any idea 
what one would have left now after the Time-Warne-AOL fiasco?  I remember 
stacks of those free AOL disks at the grocery store checkout.  I think 
someone made out big time on the internet and some lost big time  Steve 
Case, for one, has a net worth of $1,370,000,000.  You could buy a lotta CDs 
for that, just guessing, freight trains full of them. Of course it would be 
even nicer if you could convince someone else to pay for the CDs. 

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#155552

On Wednesday, December 23, 2015 at 1:13:49 PM UTC-5, Osmium wrote:
> If one had $100 in Time-Life stock in, say 1985, does anyone have any idea 
> what one would have left now after the Time-Warne-AOL fiasco?  I remember 
> stacks of those free AOL disks at the grocery store checkout.  I think 
> someone made out big time on the internet and some lost big time  Steve 
> Case, for one, has a net worth of $1,370,000,000.  You could buy a lotta CDs 
> for that, just guessing, freight trains full of them. Of course it would be 
> even nicer if you could convince someone else to pay for the CDs.

What amazes me is how once hot-products suddenly become eclipsed by
something out.  Visicalc by Lotus, then Excell.  WordPerfect by Word.

How (why) did Facebook eclipse Myspace?

The AOL-Time-Warner debacle is probably worthy of a well researched
book, if the participants would be willing to talk candidly.

I _suspect_, at the time, both Time and Warner Bros people realized
that their traditional media--print and film--were obsolete, 
being replaced by elecronics, and that they better be prepared
for it or be out of business.  At the time, AOL looked to be
the "next big thing", so they grabbed it.

As to the TV/film industry, IMHO, it's being killed by an
explosion of middlemen, such as numerous lawyers involved 
every step of the way, and taking a cut.  We consumers are
paying higher prices for movie admissions, and on TV we're
now paying cable delivery fees and are forced to see
significantly more commercials.

As towarde traditional print, I think we're losing many 
talented writers since modern print publications have lost
so much circulation and ad revenues, which have not been
replaced by electronic sources.  

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#155975

On 2015-12-23 1:13 PM, Osmium wrote:
>
> I think someone made out big time on the internet and some lost big time
 > Steve Case, for one, has a net worth of $1,370,000,000.

At the time I thought that Case did rather well.  He managed to
exchange over-hyped paper assets for a stock that paid real money
dividends.  I took it as a sign the Internet bubble was about to
pop.  I did NOT have the guts to short anything, but did keep
buying dividend paying non-technology stocks.

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#155994

Alan Bowler <atbowler@thinkage.ca> writes:
> At the time I thought that Case did rather well.  He managed to
> exchange over-hyped paper assets for a stock that paid real money
> dividends.  I took it as a sign the Internet bubble was about to pop.
> I did NOT have the guts to short anything, but did keep buying
> dividend paying non-technology stocks.

securitized mortgages had been used during the S&L crisis to obfuscate
fraudulent mortgages (posterchild were office bldgs in Dallas/Ft.Worth
area that turned out to be empty lots). In the 90s, I was asked to help
prevent the coming economic mess by improving the integrity of
supporting documents as countermeasure.  They explained that the
majority of the people involved in the S&L crisis and things like junk
bonds had walked away clean and were then involved in internet IPO mills
... formula was invest a few millions, hype the IPO for a couple years
and then get hundreds of millions (or billions) in the IPO. It helped
that the new companies would then fail, because it left the field open
for the next round of IPOs. They were then predicted to next get into
mortgages.

We had some direct experience ... during a financial standards meeting
held in DC, we were asked to step out, there was somebody there to talk
to us. He explained that he was from a ethnic organization in NJ and
some wallstreet investment bankers had asked him to talk to us. They
were expecting to clear $2B from upcoming internet IPO ... that involved
some technology that were were actively critising ... they figured that
our citicism would result in a 10% downside in the $2B they were
expecting.  He said it wasn't personal, it was purely business (seen
various references that investment bankers are dominated by sociopaths).

Of course the mortgage lenders figure out that they could pay rating
agencies for triple-A rating (when all knew they weren't worth triple-A,
from testimony in Oct2008 congressional hearings into the role that the
rating agencies played). Triple-A rating trumps supporting documents and
they can start doing no-documentation, liar loans. posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#toxic.cdo

Originally triple-A rating just met they no longer had to care about
borrowers qualification or loan quality ... but then they figure out
they can do securitized mortgages designed to fail, pay for triple-A
rating, sell to their victims and take out CDS gambling bets that they
would fail (creating enormous demand for bad mortgages).

AIG was the largest holder of these CDS gambling bets and was
negotiating to pay off at 50cents on the dollar, when the US Sec. of
Treasury steps in, forces them to sign document that they can't sue
those making the bets and take TARP funds to pay off at face value.  The
largest recipient of TARP funds is AIG, and the largest recipient of
face value payoffs is the investment bank formally headed by the Sec. of
Treasury.

From the law of unintended consequences, the no-documentation, liar
loans result in the "too big to fail" later setting up the robo-signing
mills to fabricate the documents. Several states were working up to
filling criminal charges against the "too big to fail" for the
robo-signing mills (including jail time), when FEDs take over
jurisdiction and settle with huge fines (but no jail time).  The fines
are turned over to organization that is suppose to use the money to help
the victims of fraudulent foreclosures. However, little of the money
actually reach the victims (turns out the organizations were setup by
some of those previously involved in the economic mess).

Estimate is the "too big to fail" have been fined a total of $300B since
the economic mess (but no jailtime). However, this isn't just for the
bad loans and robo-signing mills, but also a load of other illegal
activity last decade, manipulating LIBOR, FOREX, the commodity markets,
money laundering for drug cartels and terrorists, facilitating hundreds
of billions in tax evasion and other criminal activities (joke is that
the $300B is so small compared to the total amounts involved, that it is
just viewed as the cost of doing criminal business).  past posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#too-big-to-fail
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#libor
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#money.laundering
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#tax.evasion

this policy is called "deferred prosecution", but has given rise to "too
big to fail" also being referred to as "too big to prosecute" and "too
big to jail". "Deferred prosecution" normally described something like
probation ... charges dropped if the company is clean for several
years. However, there are numerous instances of same company committing
same crimes, year after year in voilation of previous "deferred
prosecution" settlements ... and nothing happening (except more nominal
sized fines, much smaller than the money that they still walk away
with). some recent posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014i.html#10 Instead of focusing on big fines, law enforcement should seek long prison terms for the responsible executives
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015d.html#80 Greedy Banks Nailed With $5 BILLION+ Fine For Fraud And Corruption
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015e.html#23 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015e.html#44 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015e.html#47 Do we REALLY NEED all this regulatory oversight?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015f.html#36 Eric Holder, Wall Street Double Agent, Comes in From the Cold
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015f.html#37 LIBOR: History's Largest Financial Crime that the WSJ and NYT Would Like You to Forget
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015f.html#57 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015f.html#61 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015h.html#31 Talk of Criminally Prosecuting Corporations Up, Actual Prosecutions Down
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015h.html#44 rationality
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015h.html#47 rationality
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015h.html#65 Economic Mess

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

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#156001

Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> writes:
> From the law of unintended consequences, the no-documentation, liar
> loans result in the "too big to fail" later setting up the
> robo-signing mills to fabricate the documents. Several states were
> working up to filling criminal charges against the "too big to fail"
> for the robo-signing mills (including jail time), when FEDs take over
> jurisdiction and settle with huge fines (but no jail time).  The fines
> are turned over to organization that is suppose to use the money to
> help the victims of fraudulent foreclosures. However, little of the
> money actually reach the victims (turns out the organizations were
> setup by some of those previously involved in the economic mess).

people running these organizations, charged with distributing fines to
victims of fraudulent mortgages&foreclosures ... included executives
that were federal regulators last decade (and did nothing then).

trivia ... bloomberg tv just had business news flash saying jp
morgan/chase settled (some) foreclosure/robo-signing case
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-jpmorgan-mortgages-idUSKBN0UJ1UX20160105

the original case had tens of billions in fines ... this appears to be
with regard to additional fines for failing to conform with previous
settlements.

old posts mentioning robo-signing
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012d.html#10 PC industry is heading for more change
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012g.html#8 Adult Supervision
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012i.html#13 Monopoly/ Cartons of Punch Cards
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012l.html#68 Singer Cartons of Punch Cards
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012m.html#55 General Mills computer
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012n.html#12 Why Auditors Fail To Detect Frauds?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012o.html#7 Beyond the 10,000 Hour Rule
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012o.html#69 Can Open Source Ratings Break the Ratings Agency Oligopoly?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012o.html#73 These Two Charts Show How The Priorities Of US Companies Have Gotten Screwed Up
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013d.html#63 What Makes an Architecture Bizarre?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013d.html#70 What Makes an Architecture Bizarre?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013h.html#46 OT: "Highway Patrol" back on TV
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013j.html#73 Why DOJ Deemed Bank Execs Too Big To Jail
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013j.html#80 Why DOJ Deemed Bank Execs Too Big To Jail
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013k.html#29 The agency problem and how to create a criminogenic environment
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013l.html#9 What Makes a Tax System Bizarre?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013l.html#17 What Makes a Tax System Bizarre?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013l.html#57 What the Orgy of "Lehman Five Years On" Stories Missed
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013l.html#58 OT:  NYT article--the rich get richer
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014d.html#46 Wells Fargo made up on-demand foreclosure papers plan: court filing charges
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014f.html#70 Obama Administration Launches Plan To Make An "Internet ID" A Reality
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014g.html#54 Has the last fighter pilot been born?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014h.html#111 Maine Supreme Court Hands Major Defeat to MERS Mortgage Registry
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014i.html#14 Instead of focusing on big fines, law enforcement should seek long prison terms for the responsible executives
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014k.html#0 only sometimes From looms to computers to looms
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014m.html#16 weird apple trivia
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014m.html#21 Senate Democrats vs. the Middle Class; Senators elected in 2008 made Obama's agenda possible, and its results have harmed most Americans
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014m.html#126 Wall Street's Revenge
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014m.html#131 Memo To WSJ: The CRomnibus Abomination Was Not "A Rare Bipartisan Success"
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015.html#17 Cromnibus cartoon
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015.html#48 The 17 Equations That Changed The Course Of History
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015.html#54 How do we take political considerations into account in the OODA-Loop?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015.html#90 NY Judge Slams Wells Fargo For Forging Documents... And Why Nothing Will Change
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015.html#92 Ocwen's Servicing Meltdown Proves Failure of Obama's Mortgage Settlements
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015b.html#0 S&L Crisis and Economic Mess
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015b.html#5 Swiss Leaks lifts the veil on a secretive banking system
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015b.html#8 Shoot Bank Of America Now---The Case For Super Glass-Steagall Is Overwhelming
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015b.html#20 $2 Billion City Of Tampa Pension Story Major Media Missed
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015b.html#22 Two New Papers Say Big Finance Sectors Hurt Growth and Innovation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015b.html#24 What were the complaints of binary code programmers that not accept Assembly?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015c.html#49 Global Fragility and the 1997 Asian Financial Crisis
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015c.html#53 Servicers in DOJ s Crosshairs Following JPM Robo-Signing Settlement
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015c.html#75 Hillary Remains Clueless About Regulation on the 28th Anniversary of the Keating Five Meeting
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015c.html#88 How Wall Street captured Washington's effort to rein in banks
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015c.html#108 Occupy Democrats
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015d.html#4 "Trust in digital certificate ecosystem eroding"
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015d.html#5 7 years on from crisis, $150 billion in bank fines and penalties
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015d.html#18 Can we design machines to automate ethics?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015d.html#20 Wall Street Bailouts Are Finally Over, Right?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015d.html#28 Bernie Sanders Proposes A Bill To Break Up The 'Too Big To Exist' Banks
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015d.html#76 Greedy Banks Nailed With $5 BILLION+ Fine For Fraud And Corruption
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015e.html#34 43rd President
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015e.html#39 Poor People Caused The Financial Crisis
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015e.html#40 Poor People Caused The Financial Crisis
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015e.html#47 Do we REALLY NEED all this regulatory oversight?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015e.html#71 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015e.html#80 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015e.html#93 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015e.html#95 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015f.html#4 Jeb: George W. Bush is a top foreign policy adviser
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015f.html#27 Federal Subsidies
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015f.html#36 Eric Holder, Wall Street Double Agent, Comes in From the Cold
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015f.html#67 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015g.html#25 After 6 Years Of QE, And A $4.5 Trillion Balance Sheet, St. Louis Fed
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015g.html#56 The long, slow death of the rule of law in America
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015g.html#65 Michael Hudson's New Book: Wall Street Parasites Have Devoured Their Hosts -- Your Retirement Plan and the U.S. Economy
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015g.html#70 AIG freezes defined-benefit pension plan
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015g.html#73 Economists' Tribal Thinking
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015g.html#81 Now the DOJ Admits They Got it Wrong
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015h.html#4 Decimal point character and billions
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015h.html#44 rationality
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015h.html#53 rationality

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

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#155548

On Wed, 23 Dec 2015, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:

> As I recall it, in the 1990s, there was an Internet available, but
> it was mostly for technies who knew how to use a "shell account".
> Most of the user interfaces were Unix oriented, with terse
> command-line based operatives.  To access Usenet, there was
> something "rn" or "trn".  At that time, it wasn't really used
> by the widespread general public, even though the use of
> personal computers was growing.
>
But I think there were surges, which were only small compared to what came 
later.

Until there were commercial ISPs, access was quite limited. Once there 
were commercial ISPs, that caused a big change, then a few years later, 
more of the public got online, which dwarfed the earlier surge, and then 
later "everyone" got online.

But as it was progressing, it was significant change early on (just as 
with small computers), except the next surge was even bigger.

   Michael

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#155560

On Wed, 23 Dec 2015 12:48:02 -0500, Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca>
wrote:
>On Wed, 23 Dec 2015, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>
>> As I recall it, in the 1990s, there was an Internet available, but
>> it was mostly for technies who knew how to use a "shell account".
>> Most of the user interfaces were Unix oriented, with terse
>> command-line based operatives.  To access Usenet, there was
>> something "rn" or "trn".  At that time, it wasn't really used
>> by the widespread general public, even though the use of
>> personal computers was growing.
>>
>But I think there were surges, which were only small compared to what came 
>later.
>
>Until there were commercial ISPs, access was quite limited. Once there 
>were commercial ISPs, that caused a big change, then a few years later, 
>more of the public got online, which dwarfed the earlier surge, and then 
>later "everyone" got online.
>
>But as it was progressing, it was significant change early on (just as 
>with small computers), except the next surge was even bigger.
>
>   Michael

In 1988, we had BITNET at the university, and email to other networks
if we knew which relay to use and knew the email address of the person
we wanted to contact.

I heard about a nationwide BBS, I think it was a BBS, but the
connection charge was $5 per hour. Couldn't afford that. The people I
knew who had it, dialed a local number, and their modem was routed to
the site.

We got Usenet about 1991/992, and I found this newsgroup and several
others. I read them via a VT100 clone from home on my Amiga A1000. The
modem speed was 1200 baud.

My email address then was @cp6.bitnet

-- 
JimP.

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#155562

On 2015-12-23, JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> wrote:

> In 1988, we had BITNET at the university, and email to other networks
> if we knew which relay to use and knew the email address of the person
> we wanted to contact.
>
> I heard about a nationwide BBS, I think it was a BBS, but the
> connection charge was $5 per hour. Couldn't afford that. The people I
> knew who had it, dialed a local number, and their modem was routed to
> the site.
>
> We got Usenet about 1991/992, and I found this newsgroup and several
> others. I read them via a VT100 clone from home on my Amiga A1000. The
> modem speed was 1200 baud.
>
> My email address then was @cp6.bitnet

A local dialup BBS, Mind Link, added an Internet connection and treated
several newsgroups as if they were additional local groups.  I made
my first appearance here on a.f.c in March 1989 as a218@mindlink.ca.
Not long afterwards I got AmiTCP running on my Amiga 2500 and
dialed in via PPP, which I later upgraded to Ethernet when a
local ISP became available.

-- 
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored.  Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!

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#155569

On 23 Dec 2015 21:25:36 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
wrote:
>On 2015-12-23, JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> In 1988, we had BITNET at the university, and email to other networks
>> if we knew which relay to use and knew the email address of the person
>> we wanted to contact.
>>
>> I heard about a nationwide BBS, I think it was a BBS, but the
>> connection charge was $5 per hour. Couldn't afford that. The people I
>> knew who had it, dialed a local number, and their modem was routed to
>> the site.
>>
>> We got Usenet about 1991/992, and I found this newsgroup and several
>> others. I read them via a VT100 clone from home on my Amiga A1000. The
>> modem speed was 1200 baud.
>>
>> My email address then was @cp6.bitnet
>
>A local dialup BBS, Mind Link, added an Internet connection and treated
>several newsgroups as if they were additional local groups.  I made
>my first appearance here on a.f.c in March 1989 as a218@mindlink.ca.
>Not long afterwards I got AmiTCP running on my Amiga 2500 and
>dialed in via PPP, which I later upgraded to Ethernet when a
>local ISP became available.

I remember it now, America Online. AOL came later on.

-- 
JimP.

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#155615

On Wednesday, December 23, 2015 at 7:07:28 PM UTC-5, JimP wrote:

> I remember it now, America Online. AOL came later on.

Let's not forget Prodigy for ordinary consumers and Compuserve for
more serious users.

FWIW, AOL still exists.  It offers free email.

I remember Prodigy touting that it had magazine articles, such as
from Consumers Reports.  They did, but the articles were heavilly 
abridged, so at that point in time it was still better to read 
hardcopy.  Also, Prodigy was loaded with grapics, but many users
had only 1200 or 2400 modems on an 8086 and grapics are very 
slow at that speed.  I don't think Prodigy was too successful.

Compuserve (or was it CompuServe?) worked a lot more efficiently
since it utilized the plain TTY character mode.  For serious
users, it had a downloadables and discussion groups, such as
for specialty computer languages (my friends were into that.)

I'm not sure how much Compuserve was used for socializing since
it did have a connect charge that could add up if one wasn't careful.

I found it interesting that Compuserve had a tie-in to the past--
one could access Western Union through it.  I don't know if you
could send a traditional telegram, but you could send a Mailgram.
Ironically, it would be the public e-mail offered by Compuserve 
and other services that helped kill off Mailgram (and Mailgram was
WU's hope for the future.)

Compuserve had many services, some free, some extra charge.  However,
personally, I didn't make much of use of it.  At that time, I didn't
know anyone distant who also had a Compuserve so I could have faster
correspondence; I kept in touch with distant relatives by quick phone
calls or traditional letter.  In contrast, today everyone I know has 
an e-mail account and uses it.

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#155616

<hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote in message 
news:64f85661-a267-42b4-a352-fa67edb402bf@googlegroups.com...
> On Wednesday, December 23, 2015 at 7:07:28 PM UTC-5, JimP wrote:
>
>              [snip...]                       [snip...] 
> [snip...]
>
> Compuserve had many services, some free, some extra charge.  However,
> personally, I didn't make much of use of it.  At that time, I didn't
> know anyone distant who also had a Compuserve so I could have faster
> correspondence; I kept in touch with distant relatives by quick phone
> calls or traditional letter.  In contrast, today everyone I know has
> an e-mail account and uses it.
>

ISTM that CompuServe and The Source both ran their systems on PDP-10's or 
PDP-10 clones.

-- 

numerist at aquaporin4 dot com

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#155618

Charles Richmond wrote:
> <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote in message
> news:64f85661-a267-42b4-a352-fa67edb402bf@googlegroups.com...
>> On Wednesday, December 23, 2015 at 7:07:28 PM UTC-5, JimP wrote:
>>
>>              [snip...]                       [snip...]
>> [snip...]
>>
>> Compuserve had many services, some free, some extra charge.  However,
>> personally, I didn't make much of use of it.  At that time, I didn't
>> know anyone distant who also had a Compuserve so I could have faster
>> correspondence; I kept in touch with distant relatives by quick phone
>> calls or traditional letter.  In contrast, today everyone I know has
>> an e-mail account and uses it.
>>
>
> ISTM that CompuServe and The Source both ran their systems on PDP-10's or
> PDP-10 clones.
>
They paid for one license of TOPS-10 so that they could get the monitor
and CUSP distributions.  Then they used our code as a source/template
to move the new support into their sources.

/BAH

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#155621 — The Source, was: 25 Years: How the Web began

In <n5o7v3$df$1@dont-email.me> "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> writes:

>ISTM that CompuServe and The Source both ran their systems on PDP-10's or 
>PDP-10 clones.

The Source, at least when I was a customer, used "Prime" somethings.
No idea what..

They offered UPI news access as well as the Online Airline Guide.


-- 
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
		     dannyb@panix.com 
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

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#155622 — Re: The Source, was: 25 Years: How the Web began

danny burstein <dannyb@panix.com> writes:
> The Source, at least when I was a customer, used "Prime" somethings.
> No idea what..
>
> They offered UPI news access as well as the Online Airline Guide.

I've mentioned before that a couple of people we had worked with at
Oracle on cluster scaleup ... mentioned in this Jan1992 meeting
in Ellison's conference room
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/95.html#13

later have left and show up at small client/server startup responsible
for soemthing called commerce server. A few weeks after that meeting,
cluster scaleup is transferred, announced as IBM supercomputer and we
are told we can't work on anything with more than four processors ..
and we decide to leave. Later we are brought in as consultants
at the small client/server startup because they want to do payment
transactions (on the "commerce server"), the startup had also
invented this technology called "SSL" they want to use, the
result is now frequently called "electronic commerce".

They had moved into facility on middlefield road at the "T" with Ellis
street. We are also brought in to talk about "electronic commerce" with
"connect, inc" which is part way down Ellis st (towards 101). They had
online service that was based on massive amount of code on top of oracle
... where they added http&https support in relative short period of
time.

There is something in the back of my mind that they used a lot of Prime
computers ... but I can't find a reference at the moment. from long
ago and far away ...

Connect, Inc. is the first company to develop and market flexible and
scalable integrated online server software solutions. With nine years of
online experience, the company is at the forefront of providing high-end
software and services for Fortune-class enterprises wishing to conduct
complex business transactions securely on the Internet or other data
networks. CONNECT is a private company, founded in 1987 and
headquartered in Mountain View, Calif. For more information, telephone
1-800-262-2638 or access the CONNECT World Wide Web site at
http://www.connectinc.com. -0-

... snip ...


-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

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