Groups > alt.folklore.computers > #155994

Re: 25 Years: How the Web began

From	Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Newsgroups	alt.folklore.computers
Subject	Re: 25 Years: How the Web began
Date	2016-01-05 11:25 -0800
Organization	Wheeler&Wheeler
Message-ID	<87fuybeslk.fsf@garlic.com> (permalink)
References	(2 earlier) <alpine.LNX.2.02.1512222303180.19407@darkstar.example.org> <124cd685-3575-4025-ab5a-291a5d59d6bb@googlegroups.com> <slrnn7llft.khj.mausg@smaus.org> <de06iqF73hfU1@mid.individual.net> <n6h1p0$k2j$1@dont-email.me>

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Alan Bowler <atbowler@thinkage.ca> writes:
> At the time I thought that Case did rather well. He managed to
> exchange over-hyped paper assets for a stock that paid real money
> dividends. I took it as a sign the Internet bubble was about to pop.
> I did NOT have the guts to short anything, but did keep buying
> dividend paying non-technology stocks.

securitized mortgages had been used during the S&L crisis to obfuscate
fraudulent mortgages (posterchild were office bldgs in Dallas/Ft.Worth
area that turned out to be empty lots). In the 90s, I was asked to help
prevent the coming economic mess by improving the integrity of
supporting documents as countermeasure. They explained that the
majority of the people involved in the S&L crisis and things like junk
bonds had walked away clean and were then involved in internet IPO mills
... formula was invest a few millions, hype the IPO for a couple years
and then get hundreds of millions (or billions) in the IPO. It helped
that the new companies would then fail, because it left the field open
for the next round of IPOs. They were then predicted to next get into
mortgages.

We had some direct experience ... during a financial standards meeting
held in DC, we were asked to step out, there was somebody there to talk
to us. He explained that he was from a ethnic organization in NJ and
some wallstreet investment bankers had asked him to talk to us. They
were expecting to clear $2B from upcoming internet IPO ... that involved
some technology that were were actively critising ... they figured that
our citicism would result in a 10% downside in the $2B they were
expecting. He said it wasn't personal, it was purely business (seen
various references that investment bankers are dominated by sociopaths).

Of course the mortgage lenders figure out that they could pay rating
agencies for triple-A rating (when all knew they weren't worth triple-A,
from testimony in Oct2008 congressional hearings into the role that the
rating agencies played). Triple-A rating trumps supporting documents and
they can start doing no-documentation, liar loans. posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#toxic.cdo

Originally triple-A rating just met they no longer had to care about
borrowers qualification or loan quality ... but then they figure out
they can do securitized mortgages designed to fail, pay for triple-A
rating, sell to their victims and take out CDS gambling bets that they
would fail (creating enormous demand for bad mortgages).

AIG was the largest holder of these CDS gambling bets and was
negotiating to pay off at 50cents on the dollar, when the US Sec. of
Treasury steps in, forces them to sign document that they can't sue
those making the bets and take TARP funds to pay off at face value. The
largest recipient of TARP funds is AIG, and the largest recipient of
face value payoffs is the investment bank formally headed by the Sec. of
Treasury.

From the law of unintended consequences, the no-documentation, liar
loans result in the "too big to fail" later setting up the robo-signing
mills to fabricate the documents. Several states were working up to
filling criminal charges against the "too big to fail" for the
robo-signing mills (including jail time), when FEDs take over
jurisdiction and settle with huge fines (but no jail time). The fines
are turned over to organization that is suppose to use the money to help
the victims of fraudulent foreclosures. However, little of the money
actually reach the victims (turns out the organizations were setup by
some of those previously involved in the economic mess).

Estimate is the "too big to fail" have been fined a total of $300B since
the economic mess (but no jailtime). However, this isn't just for the
bad loans and robo-signing mills, but also a load of other illegal
activity last decade, manipulating LIBOR, FOREX, the commodity markets,
money laundering for drug cartels and terrorists, facilitating hundreds
of billions in tax evasion and other criminal activities (joke is that
the $300B is so small compared to the total amounts involved, that it is
just viewed as the cost of doing criminal business). past posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#too-big-to-fail
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#libor
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#money.laundering
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#tax.evasion

this policy is called "deferred prosecution", but has given rise to "too
big to fail" also being referred to as "too big to prosecute" and "too
big to jail". "Deferred prosecution" normally described something like
probation ... charges dropped if the company is clean for several
years. However, there are numerous instances of same company committing
same crimes, year after year in voilation of previous "deferred
prosecution" settlements ... and nothing happening (except more nominal
sized fines, much smaller than the money that they still walk away
with). some recent posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014i.html#10 Instead of focusing on big fines, law enforcement should seek long prison terms for the responsible executives
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015d.html#80 Greedy Banks Nailed With $5 BILLION+ Fine For Fraud And Corruption
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015e.html#23 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015e.html#44 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015e.html#47 Do we REALLY NEED all this regulatory oversight?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015f.html#36 Eric Holder, Wall Street Double Agent, Comes in From the Cold
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015f.html#37 LIBOR: History's Largest Financial Crime that the WSJ and NYT Would Like You to Forget
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015f.html#57 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015f.html#61 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015h.html#31 Talk of Criminally Prosecuting Corporations Up, Actual Prosecutions Down
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015h.html#44 rationality
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015h.html#47 rationality
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015h.html#65 Economic Mess

--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

Thread

25 Years: How the Web began Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2015-12-21 15:08 -0800
  Re: 25 Years: How the Web began philo <philo@privacy.net> - 2015-12-22 20:15 -0600
  Re: 25 Years: How the Web began hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-12-22 19:24 -0800
    Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2015-12-22 23:13 -0500
      Re: 25 Years: How the Web began hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-12-23 07:47 -0800
        Re: 25 Years: How the Web began mausg@mail.com - 2015-12-23 17:12 +0000
          Re: 25 Years: How the Web began "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-12-23 12:13 -0600
            Re: 25 Years: How the Web began hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-12-23 10:34 -0800
            Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Alan Bowler <atbowler@thinkage.ca> - 2016-01-05 13:27 -0500
              Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-01-05 11:25 -0800
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-01-05 12:34 -0800
        Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2015-12-23 12:48 -0500
          Re: 25 Years: How the Web began JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2015-12-23 14:42 -0600
            Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-12-23 21:25 +0000
              Re: 25 Years: How the Web began JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2015-12-23 18:07 -0600
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-12-26 21:07 -0800
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2015-12-27 02:39 -0600
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-12-27 15:48 +0000
                The Source, was: 25 Years: How the Web began danny burstein <dannyb@panix.com> - 2015-12-27 18:19 +0000
                Re: The Source, was: 25 Years: How the Web began Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2015-12-27 12:53 -0800
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began mausg@mail.com - 2015-12-27 10:07 +0000
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-02 16:05 -0500
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2016-01-03 17:17 +1100
              Re: 25 Years: How the Web began mausg@mail.com - 2015-12-24 09:41 +0000
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-12-24 11:06 +0100
        Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2015-12-23 10:12 -0800
      Re: 25 Years: How the Web began tracymnelson@gmail.com - 2015-12-23 12:07 -0800
      Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-12-24 00:39 +0100
    Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-12-23 11:37 +0000
      Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-12-23 17:18 +0000
    Re: 25 Years: How the Web began jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-12-23 13:57 +0000
      Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Lawrence Statton <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2015-12-23 09:09 -0600
        Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-12-24 00:55 +0100
          Re: 25 Years: How the Web began jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-12-24 13:44 +0000
            Re: 25 Years: How the Web began "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-12-25 05:55 +1100
              Re: 25 Years: How the Web began jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-12-25 15:08 +0000
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-12-26 06:42 +1100
            Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-12-24 20:24 -0800
              Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2015-12-24 23:41 -0500
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-12-24 21:16 -0800
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began mausg@mail.com - 2015-12-25 10:46 +0000
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2015-12-25 13:43 -0500
              Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Stan Barr <plan.b@bluesomatic.org> - 2015-12-25 07:48 +0000
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Robert Swindells <rjs@fdy2.co.uk> - 2015-12-25 10:33 +0000
            Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-12-25 08:35 +0100
    Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-12-24 00:26 +0100
  Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-12-23 11:22 +0000
    Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Andy Burns <usenet.feb2014@adslpipe.co.uk> - 2015-12-23 11:43 +0000
  Re: 25 Years: How the Web began hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-12-27 18:04 -0800
    Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-12-28 02:51 +0000
      Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2015-12-27 22:09 -0800
        Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-01-03 05:27 +0000
          Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-01-03 05:30 -0800
            Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-03 14:14 +0000
            Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-03 11:05 -0500
              Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-03 18:08 +0000
              Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-01-03 22:14 -0600
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2016-01-04 04:40 +0000
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-04 16:10 -0500
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2016-01-04 21:11 +0000
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-01-04 17:15 -0600
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2016-01-05 04:01 +0000
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-01-05 04:29 +0000
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2016-01-05 05:41 +0000
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-01-05 18:46 +0000
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-01-05 12:24 -0600
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-01-05 18:57 +0000
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2016-01-05 19:09 +0000
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-01-05 17:44 -0600
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2016-01-08 19:19 +0000
          Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-01-03 20:34 -0800
      Re: 25 Years: How the Web began hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-12-28 07:54 -0800
        Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Andy Burns <usenet.feb2014@adslpipe.co.uk> - 2015-12-28 16:21 +0000
          Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2015-12-28 12:39 -0800
            Re: 25 Years: How the Web began hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-12-28 13:11 -0800
              Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2015-12-28 13:35 -0800
              Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-12-28 21:43 +0000
            Re: 25 Years: How the Web began "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-12-28 15:37 -0600
              Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-12-29 04:35 +0000
              Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2016-01-06 21:25 +0000
          Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2016-01-06 21:13 +0000
            Re: 25 Years: How the Web began "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-06 19:35 -0500
              Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-01-09 21:03 -0800
            Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-01-07 06:41 +0000
              Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-07 09:02 +0000
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-07 06:41 -0500
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-01-09 21:06 -0800
    Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2015-12-28 04:38 -0400
      Re: 25 Years: How the Web began rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) - 2015-12-28 11:38 +0000
      Re: 25 Years: How the Web began cb@elaine.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen) - 2015-12-28 13:52 +0000
        Re: 25 Years: How the Web began mausg@mail.com - 2015-12-28 15:46 +0000
        Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2015-12-28 15:40 -0400
      Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Stan Barr <plan.b@bluesomatic.org> - 2015-12-28 16:26 +0000
        Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2015-12-28 15:46 -0400
          Re: 25 Years: How the Web began hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-12-28 12:50 -0800
            Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2015-12-29 02:56 -0400
              Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Stan Barr <plan.b@bluesomatic.org> - 2015-12-29 07:56 +0000
            Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2016-01-06 21:40 +0000
    Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2015-12-28 08:24 -0800

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