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25 Years: How the Web began

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  25 Years: How the Web began Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2015-12-21 15:08 -0800
    Re: 25 Years: How the Web began philo <philo@privacy.net> - 2015-12-22 20:15 -0600
    Re: 25 Years: How the Web began hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-12-22 19:24 -0800
      Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2015-12-22 23:13 -0500
        Re: 25 Years: How the Web began hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-12-23 07:47 -0800
          Re: 25 Years: How the Web began mausg@mail.com - 2015-12-23 17:12 +0000
            Re: 25 Years: How the Web began "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-12-23 12:13 -0600
              Re: 25 Years: How the Web began hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-12-23 10:34 -0800
              Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Alan Bowler <atbowler@thinkage.ca> - 2016-01-05 13:27 -0500
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-01-05 11:25 -0800
                  Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-01-05 12:34 -0800
          Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2015-12-23 12:48 -0500
            Re: 25 Years: How the Web began JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2015-12-23 14:42 -0600
              Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-12-23 21:25 +0000
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2015-12-23 18:07 -0600
                  Re: 25 Years: How the Web began hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-12-26 21:07 -0800
                    Re: 25 Years: How the Web began "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2015-12-27 02:39 -0600
                      Re: 25 Years: How the Web began jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-12-27 15:48 +0000
                      The Source, was: 25 Years: How the Web began danny burstein <dannyb@panix.com> - 2015-12-27 18:19 +0000
                        Re: The Source, was: 25 Years: How the Web began Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2015-12-27 12:53 -0800
                    Re: 25 Years: How the Web began mausg@mail.com - 2015-12-27 10:07 +0000
                    Re: 25 Years: How the Web began "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-02 16:05 -0500
                      Re: 25 Years: How the Web began "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2016-01-03 17:17 +1100
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began mausg@mail.com - 2015-12-24 09:41 +0000
                  Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-12-24 11:06 +0100
          Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2015-12-23 10:12 -0800
        Re: 25 Years: How the Web began tracymnelson@gmail.com - 2015-12-23 12:07 -0800
        Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-12-24 00:39 +0100
      Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-12-23 11:37 +0000
        Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-12-23 17:18 +0000
      Re: 25 Years: How the Web began jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-12-23 13:57 +0000
        Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Lawrence Statton <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2015-12-23 09:09 -0600
          Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-12-24 00:55 +0100
            Re: 25 Years: How the Web began jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-12-24 13:44 +0000
              Re: 25 Years: How the Web began "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-12-25 05:55 +1100
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-12-25 15:08 +0000
                  Re: 25 Years: How the Web began "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-12-26 06:42 +1100
              Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-12-24 20:24 -0800
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2015-12-24 23:41 -0500
                  Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-12-24 21:16 -0800
                  Re: 25 Years: How the Web began mausg@mail.com - 2015-12-25 10:46 +0000
                    Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2015-12-25 13:43 -0500
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Stan Barr <plan.b@bluesomatic.org> - 2015-12-25 07:48 +0000
                  Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Robert Swindells <rjs@fdy2.co.uk> - 2015-12-25 10:33 +0000
              Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-12-25 08:35 +0100
      Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-12-24 00:26 +0100
    Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-12-23 11:22 +0000
      Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Andy Burns <usenet.feb2014@adslpipe.co.uk> - 2015-12-23 11:43 +0000
    Re: 25 Years: How the Web began hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-12-27 18:04 -0800
      Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-12-28 02:51 +0000
        Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2015-12-27 22:09 -0800
          Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-01-03 05:27 +0000
            Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-01-03 05:30 -0800
              Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-03 14:14 +0000
              Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-03 11:05 -0500
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-03 18:08 +0000
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-01-03 22:14 -0600
                  Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2016-01-04 04:40 +0000
                  Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-04 16:10 -0500
                    Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2016-01-04 21:11 +0000
                      Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-01-04 17:15 -0600
                        Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2016-01-05 04:01 +0000
                          Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-01-05 04:29 +0000
                            Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2016-01-05 05:41 +0000
                              Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-01-05 18:46 +0000
                          Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-01-05 12:24 -0600
                            Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-01-05 18:57 +0000
                              Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2016-01-05 19:09 +0000
                                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-01-05 17:44 -0600
                          Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2016-01-08 19:19 +0000
            Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-01-03 20:34 -0800
        Re: 25 Years: How the Web began hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-12-28 07:54 -0800
          Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Andy Burns <usenet.feb2014@adslpipe.co.uk> - 2015-12-28 16:21 +0000
            Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2015-12-28 12:39 -0800
              Re: 25 Years: How the Web began hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-12-28 13:11 -0800
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2015-12-28 13:35 -0800
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-12-28 21:43 +0000
              Re: 25 Years: How the Web began "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-12-28 15:37 -0600
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-12-29 04:35 +0000
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2016-01-06 21:25 +0000
            Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2016-01-06 21:13 +0000
              Re: 25 Years: How the Web began "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-06 19:35 -0500
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-01-09 21:03 -0800
              Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-01-07 06:41 +0000
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-07 09:02 +0000
                  Re: 25 Years: How the Web began "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-07 06:41 -0500
                  Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-01-09 21:06 -0800
      Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2015-12-28 04:38 -0400
        Re: 25 Years: How the Web began rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) - 2015-12-28 11:38 +0000
        Re: 25 Years: How the Web began cb@elaine.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen) - 2015-12-28 13:52 +0000
          Re: 25 Years: How the Web began mausg@mail.com - 2015-12-28 15:46 +0000
          Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2015-12-28 15:40 -0400
        Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Stan Barr <plan.b@bluesomatic.org> - 2015-12-28 16:26 +0000
          Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2015-12-28 15:46 -0400
            Re: 25 Years: How the Web began hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-12-28 12:50 -0800
              Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2015-12-29 02:56 -0400
                Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Stan Barr <plan.b@bluesomatic.org> - 2015-12-29 07:56 +0000
              Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2016-01-06 21:40 +0000
      Re: 25 Years: How the Web began Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2015-12-28 08:24 -0800

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#156152

On Mon, 2015-12-28, Andy Burns wrote:
> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>
>> Here is an example of a terse data stream from 1968:
>> http://massis.lcs.mit.edu/telecom-archives/archives/technical/western-union-tech-review/22-2/p065.htm

It says:
------- req --------   ----------- resp -------------
TORARZ TORMTL 04 054   260 OK04 05403 SEPT17 257/1607

>> To me, it is too terse
>
> The company I worked for in the early 90's had a travel agency as part 
> of the group, which was very convenient for us to just "pop downstairs" 
> when needing plane/train/hotel bookings for business.
>
> They still used systems with cryptic command lines such as the above, 
> must have taken quite a lot of training to learn the commands and codes, 
> but the systems were very responsive and the users could rattle the 
> commands in to get bookings done very quickly.

I think we tend to exaggerate the crypticness and the time it takes to
learn such things.  People are quite good at decoding strange strings
of letters.

(I have no proof, though.)

/Jorgen

-- 
  // Jorgen Grahn <grahn@  Oo  o.   .     .
\X/     snipabacken.se>   O  o   .

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#156169

In article <slrnn8r0s9.5q5.grahn+nntp@frailea.sa.invalid>, 
grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se says...
> 
> On Mon, 2015-12-28, Andy Burns wrote:
> > hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> >
> >> Here is an example of a terse data stream from 1968:
> >> http://massis.lcs.mit.edu/telecom-archives/archives/technical/western-union-tech-review/22-2/p065.htm
> 
> It says:
> ------- req --------   ----------- resp -------------
> TORARZ TORMTL 04 054   260 OK04 05403 SEPT17 257/1607
> 
> >> To me, it is too terse
> >
> > The company I worked for in the early 90's had a travel agency as part 
> > of the group, which was very convenient for us to just "pop downstairs" 
> > when needing plane/train/hotel bookings for business.
> >
> > They still used systems with cryptic command lines such as the above, 
> > must have taken quite a lot of training to learn the commands and codes, 
> > but the systems were very responsive and the users could rattle the 
> > commands in to get bookings done very quickly.
> 
> I think we tend to exaggerate the crypticness and the time it takes to
> learn such things.  People are quite good at decoding strange strings
> of letters.
> 
> (I have no proof, though.)
> 
> /Jorgen

Mnay pelope are seiprrsud to fnid taht tehy can raed pceeflrty wlel any 
txet in wcihh all the leertts are peenrst in ecah wrod and the fsrit and 
lsat are in tehir cceorrt lacinoots.

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#156344

On Wed, 6 Jan 2016 19:35:19 -0500, "J. Clarke"
<j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

[snip]

>Mnay pelope are seiprrsud to fnid taht tehy can raed pceeflrty wlel any 
>txet in wcihh all the leertts are peenrst in ecah wrod and the fsrit and 
>lsat are in tehir cceorrt lacinoots.

     That is rather silly statement.

     A word of three or fewer letters does not change at all.  A word
of four letters just has to have the middle two letters swapped.  It
is only with words of five or more letters where there are multiple
possibilities.

     Those short words can give enough context to make it somewhat
easy to pull out some context, but "perfectly well"?  No.  I struggled
with "peenrst".  I did figure it out, but it took seconds. "lacinoots"
was another that gave me some pause.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

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#156191

On 2016-01-06, Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote:

> On Mon, 2015-12-28, Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>
>>> Here is an example of a terse data stream from 1968:
>>> http://massis.lcs.mit.edu/telecom-archives/archives/technical/western-union-tech-review/22-2/p065.htm
>
> It says:
> ------- req --------   ----------- resp -------------
> TORARZ TORMTL 04 054   260 OK04 05403 SEPT17 257/1607
>
>>> To me, it is too terse
>>
>> The company I worked for in the early 90's had a travel agency as part 
>> of the group, which was very convenient for us to just "pop downstairs" 
>> when needing plane/train/hotel bookings for business.
>>
>> They still used systems with cryptic command lines such as the above, 
>> must have taken quite a lot of training to learn the commands and codes, 
>> but the systems were very responsive and the users could rattle the 
>> commands in to get bookings done very quickly.
>
> I think we tend to exaggerate the crypticness and the time it takes to
> learn such things.  People are quite good at decoding strange strings
> of letters.
>
> (I have no proof, though.)

Like anything else, once you've learned something it's really not that
bad.  And if you're using a system heavily, terse statements save a
_lot_ of time.  What many designers don't realize is that there are
two audiences: new users and experienced ones.  What's easy for one
is a pain in the ass for the other.  The trend nowadays is to design
systems for new users (and people who use a system infrequently, which
for all practical purposes is the same thing).  This has the effect of
punishing experienced uses by making them wade through a bunch of menus
and explanatory steps which for them are unnecessary.

Really good designs accomodate both classes of users, e.g. by providing
terse command-lines or keyboard shortcuts for experienced users, and
pull-down menus for newbies.  Another option would be to provide an
"experienced user" mode that cuts out a lot of the hand-holding.

As people have said elsewhere in this group, a good system does what
you want, then gets out of the way.

-- 
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored.  Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!

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#156197

On 7 Jan 2016 06:41:25 GMT
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

> Really good designs accomodate both classes of users, e.g. by providing
> terse command-lines or keyboard shortcuts for experienced users, and
> pull-down menus for newbies.  Another option would be to provide an
> "experienced user" mode that cuts out a lot of the hand-holding.

	WordStar did this very will with keyboard shortcuts, a help panel
that popped up if you dithered in the middle of a sequence and a starting
help panel that could be turned off. I don't think I've seen it done better
since.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN                                      | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

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#156199

In article <20160107090212.4e796bbbfbb4a57ebe71ed8e@eircom.net>, 
steveo@eircom.net says...
> 
> On 7 Jan 2016 06:41:25 GMT
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> 
> > Really good designs accomodate both classes of users, e.g. by providing
> > terse command-lines or keyboard shortcuts for experienced users, and
> > pull-down menus for newbies.  Another option would be to provide an
> > "experienced user" mode that cuts out a lot of the hand-holding.
> 
> 	WordStar did this very will with keyboard shortcuts, a help panel
> that popped up if you dithered in the middle of a sequence and a starting
> help panel that could be turned off. I don't think I've seen it done better
> since.

And one of the most annoying characteristics of Word is that there isn't 
any good way to set it up to work like Wordstar for editing.

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#156345

On Thu, 7 Jan 2016 09:02:12 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
<steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

[snip]

>	WordStar did this very will with keyboard shortcuts, a help panel
>that popped up if you dithered in the middle of a sequence and a starting
>help panel that could be turned off. I don't think I've seen it done better
>since.

     I loved that with WordStar.  Help level three gave the most help
and was the default.  Not too long into my use of it, I would switch
to help level two which did not have the menu show (so one had almost
the whole screen for the document), but would display submenus if
there were a long enough pause.  That was just what I needed.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

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#155626

hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:

> We forget that many on-line systems of the 1960s required terse
> command strings with position dependent operands.  This was
> necessary to hold down connect time, CPU time, and memory in 
> interpreting user requests.  That kind of stuff was way too
> terse for occasional lay users.

bt nw th'v mstrd txtng, nt only trse bt fkng obfsctd. sa wht?

-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

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#155627

Mike Spencer  <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
+---------------
| hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
| > We forget that many on-line systems of the 1960s required terse
| > command strings with position dependent operands.  This was
| > necessary to hold down connect time, CPU time, and memory in 
| > interpreting user requests.  That kind of stuff was way too
| > terse for occasional lay users.
| 
| bt nw th'v mstrd txtng, nt only trse bt fkng obfsctd. sa wht?
+---------------

Aha! Got me! When I first looked at this, I thought it was rot13! ;-}
[They use rot13 a lot on "sci.crypt" to hide snarky remarks from
clueless newbies.]


-Rob

p.s. Reinforcing hancock4's point, for the longest time
travel agents had to type their queries into reservation
systems (e.g. SABRE) using raw PARS/ACP/TPF line protocol.
It looked like the proverbial "line noise" to the average
person, but (once trained) the agents (mostly) thought
the brevity made up for the cryptic codes.

-----
Rob Warnock		<rpw3@rpw3.org>
627 26th Avenue		<http://rpw3.org/>
San Mateo, CA 94403

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#155628

In article <87d1trynl0.fsf@bogus.nodomain.nowhere>,
Mike Spencer  <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
>hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>
>> We forget that many on-line systems of the 1960s required terse
>> command strings with position dependent operands.  This was
>> necessary to hold down connect time, CPU time, and memory in 
>> interpreting user requests.  That kind of stuff was way too
>> terse for occasional lay users.
>
>bt nw th'v mstrd txtng, nt only trse bt fkng obfsctd. sa wht?

http://folk.uio.no/knuthe/msfndinalbry.html

>
>-- 
>Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

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#155629

On 2015-12-28, Christian Brunschen <cb@elaine.df.lth.se> wrote:
> In article <87d1trynl0.fsf@bogus.nodomain.nowhere>,
> Mike Spencer  <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>>
>>hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>>
>>> We forget that many on-line systems of the 1960s required terse
>>> command strings with position dependent operands.  This was
>>> necessary to hold down connect time, CPU time, and memory in 
>>> interpreting user requests.  That kind of stuff was way too
>>> terse for occasional lay users.
>>
>>bt nw th'v mstrd txtng, nt only trse bt fkng obfsctd. sa wht?

I was   doing the rot13 thing as well.
Mandarin Chinese has been described as the  eroded bits of a language,
will textspk do the same to English.. or are we retravelling the path to
Ugarit, and starting again   without ths bthrsm vwls.


>
> http://folk.uio.no/knuthe/msfndinalbry.html
>
>>
>>-- 
>>Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada
>
>


-- 
greymaus
 .
  .
...

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#155635

cb@elaine.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen) writes:

> In article <87d1trynl0.fsf@bogus.nodomain.nowhere>,
> Mike Spencer  <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>>
>> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>>
>>> We forget that many on-line systems of the 1960s required terse
>>> command strings with position dependent operands.  This was
>>> necessary to hold down connect time, CPU time, and memory in 
>>> interpreting user requests.  That kind of stuff was way too
>>> terse for occasional lay users.
>>
>> bt nw th'v mstrd txtng, nt only trse bt fkng obfsctd. sa wht?
> 
> http://folk.uio.no/knuthe/msfndinalbry.html

    And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books
    there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.


-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

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#155633

On 28 Dec 2015 04:38:51 -0400, Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>
>> We forget that many on-line systems of the 1960s required terse
>> command strings with position dependent operands.  This was
>> necessary to hold down connect time, CPU time, and memory in 
>> interpreting user requests.  That kind of stuff was way too
>> terse for occasional lay users.
>
> bt nw th'v mstrd txtng, nt only trse bt fkng obfsctd. sa wht?
>

So wt is nu abt tt?   It ws nor in tgy in das gn by.

(So what is new about that? It was normal in telegraphy in days gone
by.)  Phillips Telegraphy Code 1879...

-- 
Stan Barr     plan.b@bluesomatic.org

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#155636

Stan Barr <plan.b@bluesomatic.org> writes:

> On 28 Dec 2015 04:38:51 -0400, Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>>
>> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>>
>>> We forget that many on-line systems of the 1960s required terse
>>> command strings with position dependent operands.  This was
>>> necessary to hold down connect time, CPU time, and memory in 
>>> interpreting user requests.  That kind of stuff was way too
>>> terse for occasional lay users.
>>
>> bt nw th'v mstrd txtng, nt only trse bt fkng obfsctd. sa wht?
>>
> 
> So wt is nu abt tt?   It ws nor in tgy in das gn by.
> 
> (So what is new about that? It was normal in telegraphy in days gone
> by.)  Phillips Telegraphy Code 1879...

What's new is that "occasional lay users" are now cheerfully writing
and reading stuff alleged to be "way too terse" for them. (Admittedly,
the "compilers" -- viz. recipients of trs txtng -- are more forgiving
that ones constructed with lex and yacc.)

-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

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#155638

On Monday, December 28, 2015 at 2:47:24 PM UTC-5, Mike Spencer wrote:

> What's new is that "occasional lay users" are now cheerfully writing
> and reading stuff alleged to be "way too terse" for them. (Admittedly,
> the "compilers" -- viz. recipients of trs txtng -- are more forgiving
> that ones constructed with lex and yacc.)

Unlike the 1960s, today almost everyone has had some computer training
and exposure in school and on the job.

As mentioned before, in the 1970s when we trained new computer users 
to use a terminal, it was NOT like teaching them to type.  People 
had to be taught the concept of a field and it having properties
to be complied with, correcting typos, submission of data via
the ENTER or RETURN key, and use of special function keys.  Numeric
and date fields had to be entered in a specific way per the design.
Alpha fields had to fit in the characters provided, otherwise it
would be truncated, and possibly truncated in significant characters--
users had to know when and how to abbreviate.  Lots of fields were
coded, so the user had to know not to use freeform, but to look up
the proper code.

Today, we all take all that stuff for granted.  Most people know
to use an official post office abbreviation, for example and how
to key in their 10 digit phone number.  

If, in the unlikely event a lay person had to use a very terse command
line, with _positional_ parameters, they would have an easier time of 
it today than they would've years ago, since they would be generally 
familiar with computer concepts.

Modern day abbreviated texting is not comparable to computer usage.
The human mind is capable of making many interpretations from
overall context.  Note that that 'context' is not only the message
as sent, but also the general conversation underway, and, a knowledge
of the person they're talking to.

Some computer commands have to be spelled exactly correctly.  If someone
orders a blue sweater using "BL" but ends up receiving a black one,
the world won't come to an end.  Someone on a terse system who 
mistypes a D for S might be very unhappily surprised when they show
up at the gate for a sold out flight that they're not booked for.

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#155644

hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:

> Modern day abbreviated texting is not comparable to computer usage.
> The human mind is capable of making many interpretations from
> overall context.  Note that that 'context' is not only the message
> as sent, but also the general conversation underway, and, a knowledge
> of the person they're talking to.
> 
> Some computer commands have to be spelled exactly correctly.  If someone
> orders a blue sweater using "BL" but ends up receiving a black one,
> the world won't come to an end.  Someone on a terse system who 
> mistypes a D for S might be very unhappily surprised when they show
> up at the gate for a sold out flight that they're not booked for.

All of that, yes, of course.  My remark suggesting otherwise was an
intentionally frivolous jape.

-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

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#155645

On 29 Dec 2015 02:56:22 -0400, Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
> All of that, yes, of course.  My remark suggesting otherwise was an
> intentionally frivolous jape.
>

And, of course, I forgot to append a smiley to my response... :-)

-- 
Stan Barr     plan.b@bluesomatic.org

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#156154

On Mon, 2015-12-28, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
...
> Modern day abbreviated texting is not comparable to computer usage.
> The human mind is capable of making many interpretations from
> overall context.

Texting is sometimes human-machine interaction, though.  If you ride a
bus or a tram here in Gothenburg, you can buy a ticket by texting.
The string you send is very terse, and encodes area, your age group,
and whether it's night (when prices are higher) or not.

Unfortunately, that's not the most complex aspect of that fairly new
payment system.  Other aspects are a complete mess, and I doubt anyone
understands all of it.

/Jorgen

-- 
  // Jorgen Grahn <grahn@  Oo  o.   .     .
\X/     snipabacken.se>   O  o   .

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#155632

hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
> We forget that many on-line systems of the 1960s required terse
> command strings with position dependent operands.  This was
> necessary to hold down connect time, CPU time, and memory in 
> interpreting user requests.  That kind of stuff was way too
> terse for occasional lay users.

in the mid-90s, we were asked by the largest airline res system at
redoing parts of their system. I went away (with copy of the full
official airline guide) and came back 2months later with an
implementation for ROUTES (finding the flts that got from ptA to ptB,
about 1/4th of system utilization).

at the time, standard reservation terminal interface had changed little
from the 60s, numerous extremely terse character sequences with manual
effort to tie the sequence all together. It ran about 100 times faster
and could handle all airlines for all flts for everybody in the world
... which none of the existing implementations could handle ... with a
lot of additional features (to handle the whole worlds load would run on
ten rs/6000 990s ... a decade later, would fit on cellphone).

Part of the issue, was that the design of existing implementation hadn't
changed since the 60s ... with various kinds of trade-offs made at that
time. Starting from scratch, with 30yrs advances, could make totally
different set of trade-offs. One of the differences, was existing
implementations had trouble where more than two connecting flts were
required. New implementation could handle any number of connecting flts
necessary to get between any two points on the planet.

Also demo'ed a newer user interface ... that collapsed three seperate
arcane interactions into single transaction that would return
significantly more information ... which could be sorted by various
criteria. Could even display map of the flt(s), overlayed with current
weather conditions.

some past posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#17 Old Computers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#100 Why won't the AS/400 die? Or, It's 1999 why do I have to learn how to use
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#103 IBM 9020 computers used by FAA (was Re: EPO stories (was: HELP IT'S HOT!!!!!))
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#136a checks (was S/390 on PowerPC?)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#20 Competitors to SABRE?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#26 Disk caching and file systems.  Disk history...people forget
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001d.html#69 Block oriented I/O over IP
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#45 Did AT&T offer Unix to Digital Equipment in the 70s?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#49 Did AT&T offer Unix to Digital Equipment in the 70s?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#17 I hate Compaq
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#0 TSS/360
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#3 News IBM loses supercomputer crown
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#2 Computers in Science Fiction
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#3 Why are Mainframe Computers really still in use at all?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#12 Why did OSI fail compared with TCP-IP?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#43 IBM doing anything for 50th Anniv?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002i.html#83 HONE
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002j.html#83 Summary: Robots of Doom
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002m.html#67 Tweaking old computers?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003.html#48 InfiniBand Group Sharply, Evenly Divided
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003c.html#30 diffence between itanium and alpha
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003d.html#67 unix
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003k.html#3 Ping:  Anne & Lynn Wheeler
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003n.html#47 What makes a mainframe a mainframe?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004b.html#6 Mainframe not a good architecture for interactive workloads
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004e.html#44 Infiniband - practicalities for small clusters
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004f.html#58 Infiniband - practicalities for small clusters
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004g.html#14 Infiniband - practicalities for small clusters
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004l.html#6 Xah Lee's Unixism
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004o.html#23 Demo: Things in Hierarchies (w/o RM/SQL)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004o.html#29 Integer types for 128-bit addressing
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004p.html#26 IBM 3614 and 3624 ATM's
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004q.html#85 The TransRelational Model: Performance Concerns
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005.html#22 The Soul of Barb's New Machine (was Re: creat)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005.html#41 something like a CTC on a PC
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005c.html#67 intel's Vanderpool and virtualization in general
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005e.html#47 Using the Cache to Change the Width of Memory
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005f.html#22 System/360; Hardwired vs. Microcoded
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005n.html#44 What was new&important in computer architecture 10 years ago ?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005o.html#44 Intel engineer discusses their dual-core design
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005q.html#7 HASP/ASP JES/JES2/JES3
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006d.html#5 IBM 610 workstation computer
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006j.html#6 The Pankian Metaphor
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006k.html#9 Arpa address
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006o.html#4 How Many 360/195s and 370/195s were shipped?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006o.html#18 RAMAC 305(?)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006r.html#18 50th Anniversary of invention of disk drives
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007e.html#52 US Air computers delay psgrs
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007g.html#22 Bidirectional Binary Self-Joins
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007g.html#41 US Airways badmouths legacy system
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007h.html#41 Fast and Safe C Strings: User friendly C macros to Declare and use C Strings
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007j.html#28 Even worse than UNIX
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007k.html#72 The top 10 dead (or dying) computer skills
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007n.html#8 nouns and adjectives
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007p.html#45 64 gig memory
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008c.html#53 Migration from Mainframe to othre platforms - the othe bell?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008i.html#19 American Airlines
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008j.html#32 CLIs and GUIs
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008p.html#41 Automation is still not accepted to streamline the business processes... why organizations are not accepting newer technologies?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009j.html#33 IBM touts encryption innovation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009l.html#55 IBM halves mainframe Linux engine prices
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009l.html#66 ACP, One of the Oldest Open Source Apps
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010b.html#73 Happy DEC-10 Day
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010b.html#74 Happy DEC-10 Day
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010b.html#80 Happy DEC-10 Day
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010c.html#19 Processes' memory
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010j.html#52 Article says mainframe most cost-efficient platform
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010m.html#42 IBM 3883 Manuals
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010n.html#16 Sabre Talk Information?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010n.html#81 Hashing for DISTINCT or GROUP BY in SQL
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011c.html#17 If IBM Hadn't Bet the Company
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011c.html#42 If IBM Hadn't Bet the Company
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011d.html#14 Sabre; The First Online Reservation System
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011d.html#43 Sabre; The First Online Reservation System
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011e.html#8 Multiple Virtual Memory
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011i.html#77 program coding pads
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011n.html#35 Last Word on Dennis Ritchie
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011n.html#92 Innovation and iconoclasm
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012c.html#8 The PC industry is heading for collapse
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012e.html#70 Disruptive Thinkers: Defining the Problem
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012f.html#7 Burroughs B5000, B5500, B6500 videos
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012k.html#23 How to Stuff a Wild Duck
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012k.html#50 1132 printer history
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012n.html#16 System/360--50 years--the future?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012n.html#59 history of Programming language and CPU in relation to each
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012o.html#13 Should you support or abandon the 3270 as a User Interface?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013.html#1 IBM Is Changing The Terms Of Its Retirement Plan, Which Is Frustrating Some Employees
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013.html#7 From build to buy: American Airlines changes modernization course midflight
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013b.html#52 Article for the boss: COBOL will outlive us all
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013f.html#65 Linear search vs. Binary search
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013g.html#87 Old data storage or data base
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013n.html#0 'Free Unix!': The world-changing proclamation made 30yearsagotoday
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014d.html#20 Write Inhibit
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014e.html#10 Can the mainframe remain relevant in the cloud and mobile era?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014g.html#54 Has the last fighter pilot been born?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014g.html#101 Costs of core
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014i.html#53 transactions, was There Is Still Hope
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014i.html#84 History--error checking in Baudot (5 bit) transmissions
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014j.html#34 50th/60th anniversary of SABRE--real-time airline reservations computer system
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014j.html#41 50th/60th anniversary of SABRE--real-time airline reservations computer system
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014j.html#54 RR songs, was Re: e50th/60th anniversary of SABRE--real-time airline reservations computer system
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014j.html#57 RR songs, was Re: e50th/60th anniversary of SABRE--real-time airline reservations computer system
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014j.html#58 RR songs, was Re: e50th/60th anniversary of SABRE--real-time airline reservations computer system
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014k.html#29 Power grid groans, blackouts roll through L.A. area as heat wave nears peak
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014l.html#29 IBM 1401 emulation on 360 processors
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014m.html#69 RR songs, was Re: e50th/60th anniversary of SABRE--real-time airline reservations computer system
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015b.html#75 How Russia's S-400 makes the F-35 obsolete
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015c.html#107 crash, restart, and all that, was Your earliest dream?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015d.html#84 ACP/TPF
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015f.html#5 Can you have a robust IT system that needs experts to run it?

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

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