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Macrium backup/restore of non-partition bits of a disk.

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  Macrium backup/restore of non-partition bits of a disk. Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2022-01-06 15:46 +0000
    Re: Macrium backup/restore of non-partition bits of a disk. Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk> - 2022-01-06 19:14 +0000
      Re: Macrium backup/restore of non-partition bits of a disk. Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2022-01-07 10:31 +0000
    Re: Macrium backup/restore of non-partition bits of a disk. Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2022-01-06 14:47 -0500
      Re: Macrium backup/restore of non-partition bits of a disk. Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2022-01-07 10:48 +0000
        Re: Macrium backup/restore of non-partition bits of a disk. Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2022-01-07 08:38 -0500
          Re: Macrium backup/restore of non-partition bits of a disk. Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2022-01-07 14:24 +0000
          Re: Macrium backup/restore of non-partition bits of a disk. Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> - 2022-01-07 10:36 -0800
    Re: Macrium backup/restore of non-partition bits of a disk. Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> - 2022-01-06 11:55 -0800

#31085 — Macrium backup/restore of non-partition bits of a disk.

  This is probably a 'dumb' question, but seeing on micky's troubles of
late, I'd rather be safe than sorry.

  Does Macrium Reflect (Free) backup and restore the non-partition bits
of a disk, when you make partition-based backup of a disk?

  N.B. I have of course studied the Macrium documentation, but did not
see a clear answer to this question, hence this post.

  With the non-partition bits, I mean the GPT, the MBR (if any) and any
other parts which are not part of the partitions on the disk.

  I make partition-based backup with Macrium. One Backup Definition File
backs up all partitions except C (done only once). And another Backup
Definition File backs up the C partition (Full and Differential backups).

  N.B. Macrium has a 'Image this disk' - "disk", not "partition(s)" -
function, but as far as I can tell, that is just a partition-based
backup where all the partitions on the disk are selected/ticked, but can
be unselected/unticked. So I don't think there's a functional difference
between the 'Image this disk' function and my two partition-based Backup
Definition Files.

  Are these backups sufficient to restore (by means of the Rescue Media)
the disk, i.e. the partitions *and* the non-partition bits, in case of a
(unfixable) boot failure, disk-replacement, etc.?

  In other words, does the 'all partitions except C' image file, contain
not only the contents of these partitions, but also the GPT, etc.?

  My partitions are:

1 - WINRE    (None) NTFS        Primary, 276.3  MB of 650.0  MB
2 - NO NAME  (None) FAT32 (LBA) Primary, 104.5  MB of 260.0  MB
3 -          (None) Unformatted Primary, 128.0  MB of 128.0  MB
4 - Windows  (C:)   NTFS        Primary, 224.23 GB of 911.06 GB
4 - RECOVERY (D:)   NTFS        Primary,  17.28 GB of 19.43  GB

  N.B. The system is Windows 8.1.

  Thanks in advance for your response.

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#31086

Frank Slootweg wrote:
>    This is probably a 'dumb' question, but seeing on micky's troubles of
> late, I'd rather be safe than sorry.
> 
>    Does Macrium Reflect (Free) backup and restore the non-partition bits
> of a disk, when you make partition-based backup of a disk?
> 
>    N.B. I have of course studied the Macrium documentation, but did not
> see a clear answer to this question, hence this post.
> 
>    With the non-partition bits, I mean the GPT, the MBR (if any) and any
> other parts which are not part of the partitions on the disk.
> 
>    I make partition-based backup with Macrium. One Backup Definition File
> backs up all partitions except C (done only once). And another Backup
> Definition File backs up the C partition (Full and Differential backups).
> 
>    N.B. Macrium has a 'Image this disk' - "disk", not "partition(s)" -
> function, but as far as I can tell, that is just a partition-based
> backup where all the partitions on the disk are selected/ticked, but can
> be unselected/unticked. So I don't think there's a functional difference
> between the 'Image this disk' function and my two partition-based Backup
> Definition Files.
> 
>    Are these backups sufficient to restore (by means of the Rescue Media)
> the disk, i.e. the partitions *and* the non-partition bits, in case of a
> (unfixable) boot failure, disk-replacement, etc.?
> 
>    In other words, does the 'all partitions except C' image file, contain
> not only the contents of these partitions, but also the GPT, etc.?
> 
>    My partitions are:
> 
> 1 - WINRE    (None) NTFS        Primary, 276.3  MB of 650.0  MB
> 2 - NO NAME  (None) FAT32 (LBA) Primary, 104.5  MB of 260.0  MB
> 3 -          (None) Unformatted Primary, 128.0  MB of 128.0  MB
> 4 - Windows  (C:)   NTFS        Primary, 224.23 GB of 911.06 GB
> 4 - RECOVERY (D:)   NTFS        Primary,  17.28 GB of 19.43  GB
> 
>    N.B. The system is Windows 8.1.
> 
>    Thanks in advance for your response.

Not a dumb question at all, Frank.
Yes, the MBR is always on an image backup by default.
Check my claim here;
https://forum.macrium.com/18091/MBR-backup-when-imaging-whole-disk

I've used Macrium for decades, never had a problem with it, restored 
partitions by the score. I used to earn my daily bread as a programmer, 
and I'd like to meet the ones employed by Macrium. They seem faultless 
to me.

Ed

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#31089

Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk> wrote:
[...]

> Not a dumb question at all, Frank.
> Yes, the MBR is always on an image backup by default.
> Check my claim here;
> https://forum.macrium.com/18091/MBR-backup-when-imaging-whole-disk
> 
> I've used Macrium for decades, never had a problem with it, restored 
> partitions by the score. I used to earn my daily bread as a programmer, 
> and I'd like to meet the ones employed by Macrium. They seem faultless 
> to me.

  Thanks Ed, for your response and for your pointer to the proof.
  
  As indicated in that thread, what goes for the MBR (in a MBR-based
system) also goes for the GPT (in a GPT-based system). My system is
GPT-based.

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#31087

On 1/6/2022 10:46 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>    This is probably a 'dumb' question, but seeing on micky's troubles of
> late, I'd rather be safe than sorry.
> 
>    Does Macrium Reflect (Free) backup and restore the non-partition bits
> of a disk, when you make partition-based backup of a disk?
> 
>    N.B. I have of course studied the Macrium documentation, but did not
> see a clear answer to this question, hence this post.
> 
>    With the non-partition bits, I mean the GPT, the MBR (if any) and any
> other parts which are not part of the partitions on the disk.
> 
>    I make partition-based backup with Macrium. One Backup Definition File
> backs up all partitions except C (done only once). And another Backup
> Definition File backs up the C partition (Full and Differential backups).
> 
>    N.B. Macrium has a 'Image this disk' - "disk", not "partition(s)" -
> function, but as far as I can tell, that is just a partition-based
> backup where all the partitions on the disk are selected/ticked, but can
> be unselected/unticked. So I don't think there's a functional difference
> between the 'Image this disk' function and my two partition-based Backup
> Definition Files.
> 
>    Are these backups sufficient to restore (by means of the Rescue Media)
> the disk, i.e. the partitions *and* the non-partition bits, in case of a
> (unfixable) boot failure, disk-replacement, etc.?
> 
>    In other words, does the 'all partitions except C' image file, contain
> not only the contents of these partitions, but also the GPT, etc.?
> 
>    My partitions are:
> 
> 1 - WINRE    (None) NTFS        Primary, 276.3  MB of 650.0  MB
> 2 - NO NAME  (None) FAT32 (LBA) Primary, 104.5  MB of 260.0  MB
> 3 -          (None) Unformatted Primary, 128.0  MB of 128.0  MB
> 4 - Windows  (C:)   NTFS        Primary, 224.23 GB of 911.06 GB
> 4 - RECOVERY (D:)   NTFS        Primary,  17.28 GB of 19.43  GB
> 
>    N.B. The system is Windows 8.1.
> 
>    Thanks in advance for your response.

Do an operation in 6.3.1865, generate an MRIMG, use the builtin
"img2vhd.exe" function, mount the VHD in VirtualBox as a data disk,
use HxD hex editor and take a spin through the sectors with that,
to observe what is inside the VHD.

That's how you'd prove to yourself what is in there.

The VHD will have all the vestiges of a disk drive, and the
info for that came out of the MRIMG, it's not a free lunch part
of VHD construct. The VHD is just a "block recorder".

Yes, Macrium does include "superfluous" information in backups.

A subtle hint, is try an untick the MBR box on the interface,
click "Next", then "Back". Did the MBR box tick itself back
on again ? Then that is a subtle way of saying "we're going to be
capturing more than you think". You can't force the tool to be
totally negligent :-) It tries its best.

I rate it a "99%" utility, because it's pretty good but it's
not perfect perfect. The Boot Repair doesn't always work.
But then, they're using some Microsoft stuff for that too.

    Paul

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#31090

Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
[...]

> A subtle hint, is try an untick the MBR box on the interface,
> click "Next", then "Back". Did the MBR box tick itself back
> on again ? Then that is a subtle way of saying "we're going to be
> capturing more than you think". You can't force the tool to be
> totally negligent :-) It tries its best.

  Can you please indicate where the "MBR box" is in the interface and in
which interface, the normal 'online' (i.e. running under Windows) one
or the one in the offline Rescue media?

  FWIW, I have version 7.2.

> I rate it a "99%" utility, because it's pretty good but it's
> not perfect perfect. The Boot Repair doesn't always work.
> But then, they're using some Microsoft stuff for that too.

  Yes, I had a non-bootable system which the 'Fix Windows Boot Problems'
function of the Rescue media couldn't fix. But the Rescue media allowed
me to backup my 'database' to another disk, before the broken-by-design
System Restore - which *did* fix the boot problem - clobbered it and
then I restored the database from the backup.

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#31091

On 1/7/2022 5:48 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
> [...]
> 
>> A subtle hint, is try an untick the MBR box on the interface,
>> click "Next", then "Back". Did the MBR box tick itself back
>> on again ? Then that is a subtle way of saying "we're going to be
>> capturing more than you think". You can't force the tool to be
>> totally negligent :-) It tries its best.
> 
>    Can you please indicate where the "MBR box" is in the interface and in
> which interface, the normal 'online' (i.e. running under Windows) one
> or the one in the offline Rescue media?

I guess that's baseless supposition on my part.

The tick box on the left seems to be associated with "the whole disk".
Selecting any partition causes it to be ticked. It may be that the
tick box there is intended as a "tick ALL" or "untick ALL" box. But
then the converse function seems to apply, in that ticking a partition
causes the box to be ticked, so you can click the box on the left and
"untick ALL" again.

So perhaps it always backs up the disk particulars and details, even
if only one partition is being backed up.

All I know is, it will ask you a question about geometry, if the backup
image no longer matches the disk you are restoring to. This to me implies
it backs up disk details, as well as the partition.

It wouldn't need to do that, for the payware "file by file" option.

And Macrium supports resizing partitions during Restore, but it does
not allow moving the origin of the partition. If you drag and drop
the Restore partition, that allows moving the origin, but then the
boot functions might not work, as not as much work is done during the
Restore.

To test it, I'd have to go back to an OS that has an earlier Macrium
on it. The one on this OS is Macrium 8 at the moment, used to take
pictures. And without an img2vhd.exe for Macrium 8, I can't use a
VHD container as an independent representation.

You have to be a bit careful with Windows 10, because of the changes to
NTFS. For example, a few days ago, I was using Paragon Partition Manager 14
(a software that offers a subset of functions for free), and an attempt
to resize a trivially empty partition got me a "there are crosslinked
files on this partition". Yet CHKDSK was unable to repair the partition
to the satisfaction of PM14. There could potentially be quite a few
older/broken utilities due to the handling changes to NTFS by Win10.
Win8 (by itself) would be fine. Win8 would not cause the same grief that
Win10 does. Macrium is fixed via 6.3.1865, but I don't know if it is
safe to say "or later", because maybe some of the later versions were
a bit thrown off by the Microsoft actions as well. Macrium generally
won't do a backup, if it is unhappy with the partition metadata
(busted $BITMAP). You get things like Error 9.

Summary: Best environment to test would be Macrium 6, where how you mount the
          VHD for content testing depends on which OS you do the work in.
          (Win10 can just "Attach" the VHD in Disk Management.)

    Paul

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#31092

Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
[...]

> So perhaps it always backs up the disk particulars and details, even
> if only one partition is being backed up.
> 
> All I know is, it will ask you a question about geometry, if the backup
> image no longer matches the disk you are restoring to. This to me implies
> it backs up disk details, as well as the partition.
> 
> It wouldn't need to do that, for the payware "file by file" option.
> 
> And Macrium supports resizing partitions during Restore, but it does
> not allow moving the origin of the partition. If you drag and drop
> the Restore partition, that allows moving the origin, but then the
> boot functions might not work, as not as much work is done during the
> Restore.

  Thanks. For me that indeed confirms that Macrium backs up the MBR/GPT,
otherwise it couldn't do/complain_about the things you mention (restore
to a different geometry; not allow to move the start of a (to be
restored) partition).

[...]

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#31093

On Fri, 7 Jan 2022 08:38:35 -0500, Paul wrote:
> It wouldn't need to do that, for the payware "file by file" option.

Whoa! Somehow I missed that on the website, that file backup is not 
in the free edition. Of the four partitions that I back up, three 
require that feature. (Two are encrypted with Veracrypt, and Macrium 
doesn't offer the image to do image backup, which I guess makes 
sense. The third needs to have some file exclusions, which is not 
offered with disk imaging -- again I guess that makes sense.)

I've been running the trial version for about ten days, and was 
planning buy anyway. It's quixotic of me, but I figure if I'm going 
to use a good product I should pay for it, or contribute to the 
program author.

For others who may have been on the fence about buying, you can get 
20% ($14) off on a perpetual license. Just google "Macrium Reflect 
coupons" without quotes, or go to RetailMeNot.com.

-- 
Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA         https://BrownMath.com/
Shikata ga nai...

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#31088

On 6 Jan 2022 15:46:28 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>  Does Macrium Reflect (Free) backup and restore the non-partition 
> bits of a disk, when you make partition-based backup of a disk?

I don't think there _are_ any non-partition bits on a disk. My copy 
of Macrium shows two partitions with a label of "(None)" and one with 
"NO NAME".
 
In my copy of Macrium, there are three options under "Create 
Backups":

* Image selected disks on this computer. (And you're correct, 
"disks" here means partitions.)

* Create an image of the partition(s) needed to backup and restore 
Windows.

* Create a File and Folder backup.

The middle option seems like what you want. 

Now I have Macrium 8. If you have an earlier Macrium that doesn't 
have that middle option, I'll bet that checking C and all system 
partitions will do what you need. System partitions are typically 
under half a GB, so they should be easy enough to identify.

-- 
Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA         https://BrownMath.com/
Shikata ga nai...

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