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Facebook messenger woes since they started end-to-end encryption, help!

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  Facebook messenger woes since they started end-to-end encryption, help! Harvey Sanenbum <harvey50120@micro.net> - 2025-07-31 05:22 -0400
    Re: Facebook messenger woes since they started end-to-end encryption, help! VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2025-07-31 06:51 -0500
      Re: Facebook messenger woes since they started end-to-end encryption, help! Harvey Sanenbum <harvey50120@micro.net> - 2025-07-31 08:23 -0400
    Re: Facebook messenger woes since they started end-to-end encryption, help! Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-07-31 14:25 +0000
    Re: Facebook messenger woes since they started end-to-end encryption, help! "s|b" <me@privacy.invalid> - 2025-07-31 18:37 +0200
      Re: Facebook messenger woes since they started end-to-end encryption, help! Harvey Sanenbum <harvey50120@micro.net> - 2025-07-31 15:39 -0400
        Re: Facebook messenger woes since they started end-to-end encryption, help! Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2025-08-01 05:31 +0200
        Re: Facebook messenger woes since they started end-to-end encryption, help! "s|b" <me@privacy.invalid> - 2025-08-01 18:34 +0200
      Re: Facebook messenger woes since they started end-to-end encryption, help! wasbit <wasbit@REMOVEhotmail.com> - 2025-08-01 09:34 +0100
        Re: Facebook messenger woes since they started end-to-end encryption, help! VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2025-08-01 10:13 -0500
        Re: Facebook messenger woes since they started end-to-end encryption, help! Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-08-02 08:11 +0000
          Re: Facebook messenger woes since they started end-to-end encryption, help! VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2025-08-02 06:09 -0500
    Re: Facebook messenger woes since they started end-to-end encryption, help! "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-07-31 22:28 +0200
      Re: Facebook messenger woes since they started end-to-end encryption, help! Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-07-31 17:22 -0400
    Re: Facebook messenger woes since they started end-to-end encryption, help! Pragmatic Individual <pragmatic.individual@mainsite.tk> - 2025-07-31 21:48 +0000

#186395 — Facebook messenger woes since they started end-to-end encryption, help!

Going to take a chance and consider that some use Facebook here on a 
browser, like with Firefox as I do.  Besides, I don't see a separate FB 
group, so here goes and hope someone can help.

About a month ago, I began to have to enter a PIN to access and send 
messages in Messenger.  Never had to do this prior, so I am assuming 
this was something new Facebook started, but it has been reaking havoc 
with my messages.

I either don't get some messages now that people send, or messages I may 
have already received are gone when I next log in.  I don't use 
Messenger all that often, but when I do, I'd like it to work correctly.

None of the aforementioned happened before they started this, and not 
sure of the solution.  I seem to remember coming across something about 
messages disappearing as a result of not saving Messenger cookies which 
could be since all cookies are cleared when Firefox closes.  However, 
again, this would be something new since that has been my set up for 
years without trouble.

Any help would be welcome and thank you in advance.  I have considered 
sending a similar help message on Facebook, but I have done that in the 
past and find their help lacking.

harv

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#186397

Harvey Sanenbum <harvey50120@micro.net> wrote:

> About a month ago, I began to have to enter a PIN to access and send 
> messages in Messenger.  Never had to do this prior, so I am assuming 
> this was something new Facebook started, but it has been reaking havoc 
> with my messages.
> 
> I either don't get some messages now that people send, or messages I may 
> have already received are gone when I next log in.  I don't use 
> Messenger all that often, but when I do, I'd like it to work correctly.
> 
> None of the aforementioned happened before they started this, and not 
> sure of the solution.  I seem to remember coming across something about 
> messages disappearing as a result of not saving Messenger cookies which 
> could be since all cookies are cleared when Firefox closes.  However, 
> again, this would be something new since that has been my set up for 
> years without trouble.

I don't do Facebook.  The following is what I found in a search.

https://www.facebook.com/help/132694786861712

Another FB article I found that mentioned PINs was about making payments
through Messenger.  Is the PIN of which you speak actually a 2FA
security code needed to complete a login?

For a community focused on Facebook, visit:

https://www.facebook.com/facebookcommunity/

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#186398

On 7/31/25 7:51 AM, VanguardLH wrote:
> Harvey Sanenbum <harvey50120@micro.net> wrote:
> 
>> About a month ago, I began to have to enter a PIN to access and send
>> messages in Messenger.  Never had to do this prior, so I am assuming
>> this was something new Facebook started, but it has been reaking havoc
>> with my messages.
>>
>> I either don't get some messages now that people send, or messages I may
>> have already received are gone when I next log in.  I don't use
>> Messenger all that often, but when I do, I'd like it to work correctly.
>>
>> None of the aforementioned happened before they started this, and not
>> sure of the solution.  I seem to remember coming across something about
>> messages disappearing as a result of not saving Messenger cookies which
>> could be since all cookies are cleared when Firefox closes.  However,
>> again, this would be something new since that has been my set up for
>> years without trouble.
> 
> I don't do Facebook.  The following is what I found in a search.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/help/132694786861712
> 
> Another FB article I found that mentioned PINs was about making payments
> through Messenger.  Is the PIN of which you speak actually a 2FA
> security code needed to complete a login?

Not sure.  About a month back, before starting to use Messenger, it 
asked me to devise a 6 digit number to be input anytime from then on 
that Messenger was to be used supposedly for "end-to-end encryption"

> For a community focused on Facebook, visit:
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/facebookcommunity/

Thanks, I'll take a look.

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#186400

Harvey Sanenbum <harvey50120@micro.net> wrote:
> Going to take a chance and consider that some use Facebook here on a 
> browser, like with Firefox as I do.  Besides, I don't see a separate FB 
> group, so here goes and hope someone can help.
> 
> About a month ago, I began to have to enter a PIN to access and send 
> messages in Messenger.  Never had to do this prior, so I am assuming 
> this was something new Facebook started, but it has been reaking havoc 
> with my messages.
> 
> I either don't get some messages now that people send, or messages I may 
> have already received are gone when I next log in.  I don't use 
> Messenger all that often, but when I do, I'd like it to work correctly.
> 
> None of the aforementioned happened before they started this, and not 
> sure of the solution.  I seem to remember coming across something about 
> messages disappearing as a result of not saving Messenger cookies which 
> could be since all cookies are cleared when Firefox closes.  However, 
> again, this would be something new since that has been my set up for 
> years without trouble.
> 
> Any help would be welcome and thank you in advance.  I have considered 
> sending a similar help message on Facebook, but I have done that in the 
> past and find their help lacking.

Sorry can't help, but maybe reddit could:
https://www.reddit.com/r/facebookmessenger/

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#186404

On Thu, 31 Jul 2025 05:22:46 -0400, Harvey Sanenbum wrote:

> Any help would be welcome and thank you in advance.  I have considered 
> sending a similar help message on Facebook, but I have done that in the 
> past and find their help lacking.

And still you keep on using it. Here's some advice: uninstall that crap
and start using Signal.

<https://signal.org/>

-- 
s|b

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#186410

On 7/31/25 12:37 PM, s|b wrote:
> On Thu, 31 Jul 2025 05:22:46 -0400, Harvey Sanenbum wrote:
> 
>> Any help would be welcome and thank you in advance.  I have considered
>> sending a similar help message on Facebook, but I have done that in the
>> past and find their help lacking.
> 
> And still you keep on using it. Here's some advice: uninstall that crap
> and start using Signal.
> 
> <https://signal.org/>
> 
  #1.  There's nothing to uninstall as it is a web interface.
  #2.  How many folks use signal, 2?

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#186419

On Thu, 31 Jul 2025 15:39:43 -0400, Harvey Sanenbum
<harvey50120@micro.net> wrote:

>On 7/31/25 12:37 PM, s|b wrote:
>> On Thu, 31 Jul 2025 05:22:46 -0400, Harvey Sanenbum wrote:
>> 
>>> Any help would be welcome and thank you in advance.  I have considered
>>> sending a similar help message on Facebook, but I have done that in the
>>> past and find their help lacking.
>> 
>> And still you keep on using it. Here's some advice: uninstall that crap
>> and start using Signal.
>> 
>> <https://signal.org/>
>> 
>  #1.  There's nothing to uninstall as it is a web interface.
>  #2.  How many folks use signal, 2?

I use Signal, though only on my phone. 

I have a message in Messenger (which I try to avoid using) saying I
must change the way of using it, but haven't done anything about it
yet. 


-- 
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web:  http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

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#186436

On Thu, 31 Jul 2025 15:39:43 -0400, Harvey Sanenbum wrote:

> > <https://signal.org/>

>   #1.  There's nothing to uninstall as it is a web interface.

#1. You aren't very smart, are you?

>   #2.  How many folks use signal, 2?

#2. See #1.

-- 
s|b

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#186421

On 31/07/2025 17:37, s|b wrote:
> On Thu, 31 Jul 2025 05:22:46 -0400, Harvey Sanenbum wrote:
> 
>> Any help would be welcome and thank you in advance.  I have considered
>> sending a similar help message on Facebook, but I have done that in the
>> past and find their help lacking.
> 
> And still you keep on using it. Here's some advice: uninstall that crap
> and start using Signal.
> 
> <https://signal.org/>
> 

Presumably both parties need to be using Signal?


-- 
Regards
wasbit

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#186432

wasbit <wasbit@REMOVEhotmail.com> wrote:

> s|b wrote:
>
>> Harvey Sanenbum wrote:
>> 
>>> Any help would be welcome and thank you in advance.  I have
>>> considered sending a similar help message on Facebook, but I have
>>> done that in the past and find their help lacking.
>> 
>> And still you keep on using it. Here's some advice: uninstall that
>> crap and start using Signal.
>> 
>> <https://signal.org/>
> 
> Presumably both parties need to be using Signal?

Signal is used by some, but definitely not yet the leading messaging
app.  Whether Signal gets mentioned in an article depends on how deep is
the "Top N messaging apps" article you read (i.e., how large is N).

https://sinch.com/blog/most-popular-messaging-apps-by-country/
https://www.businessofapps.com/data/messaging-app-market/

"Signal is currently focused exclusively on the Android, iOS, and
Desktop applications. Android tablets are not supported."
https://support.signal.org/hc/en-us/articles/360007320051-Is-Signal-available-on-other-phones-or-operating-systems

As with all software, it won't support all old OS versions indefinitely.
https://support.signal.org/hc/en-us/articles/5109141421850-Supporting-Older-Operating-Systems

Parties at both endpoints must both use Signal.  Not until 2023 when
Signal removed support for SMS/text (which is not secure, and why it is
a lie for 2FA to "secure" a login using e-mail or SMS) did Signal secure
all communications with E2EE.

Interestingly, Signal was launched in 2018 with initial funding ($50M)
by Brian Acton from WhatsApp.  Acton became the CEO of Signal.
https://www.wired.com/story/signal-foundation-whatsapp-brian-acton/

"On February 21, 2018, Moxie Marlinspike and WhatsApp co-founder Brian
Acton announced the formation of the Signal Foundation, a 501(c)(3)
nonprofit organization. The foundation was started with an initial $50
million loan from Acton, who had left WhatsApp's parent company,
Facebook, in September 2017."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_Foundation#History

While the first two articles mention current usage levels for various
messaging apps, I didn't bother to hunt down charts showing growth of
Signal since 2018 (growth in usage, not growth in downloads).

"In response to a WhatsApp privacy update, which informed users that it
would share data with its parent Facebook, millions of users shifted to
Signal, considered best-in-class for encrypted messaging. The volume of
new users caused Signal servers to crash on January 15 2021, and access
was limited for two days afterwards."
"Signal had 70 million active users in 2024, most of which have shifted
from WhatsApp."
https://www.businessofapps.com/data/signal-statistics/

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#186464

wasbit <wasbit@REMOVEhotmail.com> wrote:
> On 31/07/2025 17:37, s|b wrote:
>> On Thu, 31 Jul 2025 05:22:46 -0400, Harvey Sanenbum wrote:
>> 
>>> Any help would be welcome and thank you in advance.  I have considered
>>> sending a similar help message on Facebook, but I have done that in the
>>> past and find their help lacking.
>> 
>> And still you keep on using it. Here's some advice: uninstall that crap
>> and start using Signal.
>> 
>> <https://signal.org/>
>> 
> 
> Presumably both parties need to be using Signal?

Yes. Just like all messaging apps these days. 

Why can't we're go back to the days of jabber etc where it didn't matter
what client you used?

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#186467

Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:

> wasbit <wasbit@REMOVEhotmail.com> wrote:
>> On 31/07/2025 17:37, s|b wrote:
>>> On Thu, 31 Jul 2025 05:22:46 -0400, Harvey Sanenbum wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Any help would be welcome and thank you in advance.  I have considered
>>>> sending a similar help message on Facebook, but I have done that in the
>>>> past and find their help lacking.
>>> 
>>> And still you keep on using it. Here's some advice: uninstall that crap
>>> and start using Signal.
>>> 
>>> <https://signal.org/>
>>> 
>> 
>> Presumably both parties need to be using Signal?
> 
> Yes. Just like all messaging apps these days. 
> 
> Why can't we're go back to the days of jabber etc where it didn't matter
> what client you used?

Proprietary protocols have added functions.  
XMPP (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XMPP) is limited by comparison.

If you want cross-client messaging, you could use one of the 4 XMPP
capable clients out of the 41 listed at:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_cross-platform_instant_messaging_clients

Or, one of the many more listed at:

https://jabber.at/clients/

But that STILL means the other party has to use an XMPP client, too, and
both must connect through an XMPP server. 

https://list.jabber.at/

That lists the XMPP servers to which your XMPP client can connect.  I've
not bothered with any chat clients, so I don't know how often that list
changes, or just who operates them (i.e., how trustworthy they are).

Users probably want to secure their communication during transit, and
even from the operator of a chat server.  Encryption to the server does
not encrypt in-situ at the server.  For secure communication, encryption
must be end to end encryption (EE2E); i.e., at the endpoints, not at the
server.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XMPP#Security_and_encryption

OMEMO might provide EE2E, but looks like users have to do the setup.
We're discussing chat clients.  Consider the level of expertise for the
users of such software; i.e., they don't have any expertise.

WhatsApp started with XMPP.  Might still have some resemblence to XMPP,
but it is not XMPP.  There have been XMPP bridges (FB Messenger had one
a long time ago), but the big boys want you locked into their walled
garden.

If one chat client could do it all, and securely, and easily to the
user, there would be only one chat client.  Users want choice, and they
don't want to think how to implement their choice.  Consumers buy USB
flash drives based on capacity without ever considering read and write
speeds, or thermal buildup on high write traffic, or anything else.
Just on capacity.  They're uninformed, and they want to stay that way.

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#186411

On 2025-07-31 11:22, Harvey Sanenbum wrote:
> Going to take a chance and consider that some use Facebook here on a 
> browser, like with Firefox as I do.  Besides, I don't see a separate FB 
> group, so here goes and hope someone can help.
> 
> About a month ago, I began to have to enter a PIN to access and send 
> messages in Messenger.  Never had to do this prior, so I am assuming 
> this was something new Facebook started, but it has been reaking havoc 
> with my messages.
> 
> I either don't get some messages now that people send, or messages I may 
> have already received are gone when I next log in.  I don't use 
> Messenger all that often, but when I do, I'd like it to work correctly.
> 
> None of the aforementioned happened before they started this, and not 
> sure of the solution.  I seem to remember coming across something about 
> messages disappearing as a result of not saving Messenger cookies which 
> could be since all cookies are cleared when Firefox closes.  However, 
> again, this would be something new since that has been my set up for 
> years without trouble.

Try making an exception in Ffx so that cookies for this website are 
preserved.


> 
> Any help would be welcome and thank you in advance.  I have considered 
> sending a similar help message on Facebook, but I have done that in the 
> past and find their help lacking.
> 
> harv


-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

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#186414

On Thu, 7/31/2025 4:28 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2025-07-31 11:22, Harvey Sanenbum wrote:
>> Going to take a chance and consider that some use Facebook here on a browser, like with Firefox as I do.  Besides, I don't see a separate FB group, so here goes and hope someone can help.
>>
>> About a month ago, I began to have to enter a PIN to access and send messages in Messenger.  Never had to do this prior, so I am assuming this was something new Facebook started, but it has been reaking havoc with my messages.
>>
>> I either don't get some messages now that people send, or messages I may have already received are gone when I next log in.  I don't use Messenger all that often, but when I do, I'd like it to work correctly.
>>
>> None of the aforementioned happened before they started this, and not sure of the solution.  I seem to remember coming across something about messages disappearing as a result of not saving Messenger cookies which could be since all cookies are cleared when Firefox closes.  However, again, this would be something new since that has been my set up for years without trouble.
> 
> Try making an exception in Ffx so that cookies for this website are preserved.
> 

You know there are cookies and there is DOM storage (folders with +++ in the name).

Hardly anyone is actually using cookie storage, for detailed metadata storage.
That goes in the DOM storage (Temporary, Permanent, ...). The cookie can still
be used as a single point identifier. I've had many cases where a web site
will claim "please enable cookies", and yes the cookies have been wide open
since forever. What it is actually whining about is the DOM storage version
might not be to its liking. If you look at Chrome design, you will notice
an excessive number of databases, and this is an attempt to scare users
away from "cleaning their metadata storage".

As a result of this, the idiot messages on the web, you have to think carefully
about the web devs and their "abuse patterns", to suss out what the real root
of the problem is. Building dependencies on DOM version, is a nice way
to kick older browsers to the curb. Sounds good to me.

OK, here's our hint.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_storage

  "Web storage, formerly known as DOM storage (Document Object Model storage),
   is a standard JavaScript API provided by web browsers.
  "

And we know that the version number of Javascript is constantly being
changed (on purpose), just to invalidate the operation of older browser
releases. Maybe this affects DOM storage enough, to prevent the
metadata the Messenger wants to store, from working properly. Presumably
anything related to crypto, has some different handling.

   Paul

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#186415

On 31/07/2025 10:22, Harvey Sanenbum wrote:
> I have considered sending a similar help message on Facebook, but I have 
> done that in the past and find their help lacking.

Have you complained to Facebook that their customer service help is 
lacking? If not why not?

When complaining about something, you need to keep going at it until you 
get a response. That's how complains work. To give you an example, 
British, French and Canadian Governments did nothing for months and 
years about genocide in Gazza committed by Zionist government of Israel 
and now something will happen in September after complains, 
demonstrations and civil disobedience by citizens of those countries.

So complain again and ask them by posting on to their forums twice a day 
for 3 months. We won't know anything about Facebook and I didn't know 
they had something called "Messenger". I have never had a Facebook 
account and unlikely to have one. I don't normally join the band-wagon 
when something new is released. I use what is absolutely needed to 
simplify my life.

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