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Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints

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On Sat, 08 Jan 2022 14:10:41 -0500, nospam wrote:

>> Is Nebraska still a state?
> 
> it is.

I think you're right because Wikipedia  starts off with & I quote verbatim:
 "Nebraska is a state" <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebraska>

Although at fewer than 2 million people in the entire state, just the SF Bay
area we started this conversation with already dwarfs the entire state by a
multiplication factor of something like four or five times alone.
 
>> It's interesting how Steve is flailing to find the worst places on the 
>> planet (like Death Valley) to cherry pick (What's next? Siberia?).
> 
> it's what he does.

At first I believed Steve's coverage maps, a priori, but after having read
that PCMag article on why FCC coverage maps differ from carrier coverage
maps, I realized the unfortunate truth that all those coverage maps lie.
a. The FCC maps are apparently mainly (only?) 4G coverage
b. Even then, they're calculated coverage based on what the carriers provide
c. And perhaps worse, the carrier maps they said were overly optimistic

I guess that means the coverage maps are an "ok" starting point, but
coverage maps alone (whether from the FCC or the carriers) can't possibly be
our only objective tool to compare the coverage in the USA between carriers.

> the number of people who are affected by coverage gaps in the middle of
> nowhere are very, very small, which is why it's a very low priority. 

Again, at first I believed Steve's coverage maps, a priori, but now that I
know more, I would have to subjectively assess that anyone relying
_completely_ on those coverage maps, is not telling us the entire truth.

The coverage maps, sadly to say, turn out to only be a rough starting point
for a factual discussion of what the actual coverage may be in a given area.

> all of the carriers have excellent coverage where people actually are. 

I only care about the facts, where subjectively I've had all three carriers
sequentially in the Silicon Valley (starting with Verizon and then moving to
AT&T and T-Mobile in sequence) where I had not noticed any appreciable
difference in coverage at the times that I switched over from each one.

I have noticed, subjectively, that T-Mobile speeds have jumped through the
roof lately, which "may" be due to the fact that T-Mobile gave me a free
Samsung 4G phone (and a half-price Apple iPhone, with trade in) so those
speeds (as you can tell from my screenshots) are almost always 5G nowadays.
 <https://i.postimg.cc/gcsyc4Vn/speedtest04.jpg> *82Mbps & -88dBM*

Note that while I took Steve's claimed speeds at face value, I know that if
there isn't a picture, it didn't happen on Usenet, and I also know that
speeds fluctuate greatly, where you can trust me since I've shown something
like a dozen test results, with pictures, showing 80Mbps is a decent low
average where 255Mbps isn't what I get all the time (just sometimes).
 <https://i.postimg.cc/C5vgmtRd/speedtest15.jpg> *130Mbps to 255Mbps*

I'm not sure if Steve is trustworthy enough since he didn't even bother to
spend the seconds it takes to snapshot & post his results like I did for us.

But if we take his typed numbers at face value, where he lives in the same
mountains, *his Verizon speeds are fantastic & his T-Mobile speeds suck*
(but I would like to see a decibel graph from him as I had openly showed).
 <https://i.postimg.cc/xCbVQ2pj/signal02.jpg>

>> <https://www.pcmag.com/news/fcc-puts-out-its-first-mobile-coverage-maps-why-th
>> ey-differ-from-carrier>
>> 
>> The FCC maps are calculated based on voluntary information provided to them 
>> (that does not include 5G data) by each of the carriers. 
>>  "The FCC knows where the towers are, which frequencies are being used, 
>>   and what the terrain is like. Using mathematical modeling, the commission
>>   projects coverage at distances from towers and put it on its maps. 
>>   So this [i.e., an FCC map] isn't on-the-ground measurement."
> 
> mathematical modeling = estimated. it is not measured.

All I care about are the facts, where I agree with you that the FCC maps are
estimated, and, what the PCMag said was they are even far worse than that.

Certainly PCMag was prepping us for the need for objective on-the-ground
tests, but what PCMag said about the lack of _any_ 5G in the FCC maps is
fatal to Steve's argument if Steve uses the FCC map to show T-Mobile sucks
compared to his vaunted Verizon.

If Steve knew that ahead of time, then Steve was trying to bullshit us,
because it's a discloser that is critically important to his overall case.

If Steve didn't know that the FCC maps (apparently) omit 5G, and if Steve
was also unaware that T-Mobile has expanded 5G tremendously recently, then
Steve wasn't trying to bullshit us - but he may just have been innocently
ignorant of those (reputed) facts.
> 
>> Still, the FCC maps should be better than nothing, right?
> 
> whether it's better than nothing is debatable. 

If what PCMag said in August of this year is true today, then the FCC
coverage maps do NOT show _any_ of the T-Mobile 5G coverage (and even 3G for
AT&T), then, of course, Steve's vaunted Verizon will show up better.

But that's just an artifact of the inaccuracies of the FCC coverage maps.
Steve _must_ respond to these allegations as they're critical to his case.

> relying on information that turns out to be inaccurate can turn out
> quite poorly.

As a rather well educated fact-based aspy who can basically only tell the
truth, I find it rather disconcerting when salespeople, marketing,
politicians & Usenet pundits play clever deceptive games with the facts so
as to sway public opinion.

If Steve was playing games with us on the FCC coverage maps, then that's
dismaying since they can't but help to show Verizon (artificially) with
better coverage (if it's true that only 4G is properly represented).

If Steve was ignorant of those facts, it may even be worse than playing
games since Steve may not be concluding the correct answers given he's not
starting with the correct datapoints (if he wasn't aware of the facts).

Either way, it's classic in politics to use bad data to press the story.

While anyone can see I've been striving to be objective (I don't care which
carrier has the better coverage since my choice of T-Mobile was based on
price performance which I accept, including tons of free 5G phones), I don't
see that Steve has been objective in the least (so he needs to respond).

For one, Steve didn't show me screenshots of his speeds, which, while I
accept his results a priori that T-Mobile sucks where he lives and Verizon
is great, I find his single typewritten measurement for each to not be as
believable as, oh, say, many screenshots like I provided would have been.

For another, if it's true what PCMag said about the FCC coverage maps being
so crappy for 5G and 3G, then if that data forms the basis of Steve's entire
argument, then he has to respond to that allegation of fact to be believed.

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USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-01-01 04:32 +0000
  Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-01-01 08:56 +0000
  Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-01-01 09:40 +0000
  Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-01-01 10:40 +0000
  Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-01-01 11:28 +0000
  Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-01-01 13:22 +0000
  Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-01-01 13:54 +0000
  Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-01-01 16:50 +0000
  Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-01-01 17:01 +0000
  Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-01-01 18:14 +0000
  Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-01-01 18:40 +0000
  Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-01-01 19:56 +0000
  Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-01-01 20:56 +0000
  Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-01-01 21:10 +0000
  Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-01-02 03:27 +0000
  Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-01-03 01:59 +0000
  Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-01-03 02:18 +0000
  Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-01-05 00:07 +0000
  Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-01-05 00:30 +0000
  Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-01-05 01:10 +0000
  Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-01-05 02:31 +0000
  Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-01-05 02:47 +0000
  Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-01-05 02:58 +0000
  Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-01-05 03:14 +0000
  Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-01-05 21:38 +0000
  Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-01-05 23:01 +0000
  Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-01-05 23:14 +0000
  Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-01-06 06:34 +0000
  Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-01-06 06:52 +0000
  Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-01-06 07:14 +0000
  Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-01-06 22:35 +0000
  Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-01-06 22:47 +0000
  Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-01-06 23:01 +0000
  Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-01-07 20:17 +0000
  Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-01-07 20:23 +0000
  Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-01-08 02:27 +0000
  Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-01-08 20:29 +0000
  Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-01-08 20:29 +0000
  Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-01-08 20:36 +0000
  Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-01-09 00:08 +0000
  Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-01-12 02:00 +0000
  Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-01-12 17:29 +0000
  Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-02-27 19:45 +0000
    Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-02-27 19:45 +0000
      Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-02-27 19:46 +0000
        Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-02-27 21:27 +0000
          Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-02-27 21:30 +0000
  Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-03-04 20:45 +0000
    Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-03-04 20:53 +0000
      Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-03-04 20:57 +0000
        Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-03-04 21:04 +0000
          Re: USA backcountry hike from Mount Madonna to Loma Prieta involving 2 topographic geoPDF quadrangles and iOS/Android plus GPX tracks & waypoints Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> - 2022-03-04 22:34 +0000

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