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Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE?

From Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid>
Newsgroups comp.lang.python
Subject Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE?
Date 2016-02-29 18:17 +0000
Organization PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC
Message-ID <nb21vg$ciq$1@reader1.panix.com> (permalink)
References (11 earlier) <87d1rgca58.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <c0c563c0-1caf-4d3b-93f8-c62db864b5a3@googlegroups.com> <mailman.2.1456734047.20602.python-list@python.org> <nb1ovl$ad7$1@reader1.panix.com> <mailman.20.1456762687.20602.python-list@python.org>

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On 2016-02-29, Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 2:43 AM, Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2016-02-29, Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Abjuring JS may be a virtue (or at least, making it a non-critical
>>> part of your web site),
>>
>> Except the marketing people who decide on the requirements will never,
>> ever settle for what you can do with plain HTML/CSS.
>>
>> In my experience, HTML/CSS makes a pretty awful GUI for a non-trivial
>> application.  With some Javascript and sweat, you can almost make it
>> to mediocre.
>
> That's why I said "may be". A pure CGI web site is pretty annoying
> unless it's really brilliantly done. However, I prefer to see JS
> restricted to actual interaction, instead of making it critical to the
> basic layout.

Agreed. That's an excellent rule to follow.  The introduction of the
"flex" display type in CSS has (for me) completely eliminated the need
for JS to concern itself with display and layout (other than the basic
hide/show enable/disable of optional elements as part of an
application's interaction logic).

I don't know why it took so long for CSS to grok the basic idea that
you almost always want to specify that some blocks should
expand/contract to fill available space and some should remain at
their "natural" size.  GUI toolkits and markup languages like LaTeX
seem to have understood that this was a very basic need for many
decades, but there was never a clean, reliable way to do it CSS until
recently.

> A lot of web sites these days load nothing but a script
> that goes and loads everything else, while you gaze at a splash
> screen. IMO that's unideal.

:)

"Unideal" is too kind -- I would described it as something more like
"the evil spawn of brain-dead incompetents".  I often wonder what
sequence of decisions/accidents get people to "solutions" like that.

> However, even that is probably a losing battle. :(

At least the era of using giant tables full of fragements of a single
large gif image to do page-layout seems to have died a long-overdue
death...

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! does your DRESSING
                                  at               ROOM have enough ASPARAGUS?
                              gmail.com

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Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? wrong.address.1@gmail.com - 2016-02-27 03:18 -0800
  Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-02-27 22:36 +1100
  Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-02-27 04:02 -0800
  Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-02-27 23:07 +1100
    Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-02-28 17:34 +1100
      Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-02-27 23:39 -0800
        Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 19:49 +1100
      Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 19:44 +1100
        Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 02:25 -0800
          Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 21:34 +1100
            Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-02-29 00:08 +1100
              Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 05:13 -0800
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-02-29 00:24 +1100
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 05:49 -0800
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Chris Warrick <kwpolska@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 15:00 +0100
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 06:11 -0800
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Chris Warrick <kwpolska@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 15:26 +0100
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 08:50 -0800
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-02-29 11:39 +1100
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 11:54 +1100
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2016-02-29 12:05 +1100
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 12:13 +1100
                Lineendings (was Everything good about Python except GUI IDE?) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 17:39 -0800
                Re: Lineendings (was Everything good about Python except GUI IDE?) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 12:49 +1100
                Re: Lineendings (was Everything good about Python except GUI IDE?) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 17:55 -0800
                Re: Lineendings (was Everything good about Python except GUI IDE?) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 13:02 +1100
                Re: Lineendings (was Everything good about Python except GUI IDE?) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 18:08 -0800
                Re: Lineendings (was Everything good about Python except GUI IDE?) Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2016-02-29 13:35 +1100
                Re: Lineendings (was Everything good about Python except GUI IDE?) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 20:48 -0800
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-02-28 17:09 +0000
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-02-28 11:56 -0500
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-03-02 20:44 +1100
        Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-02-28 23:50 +1100
          Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 04:53 +1100
            Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-02-29 13:22 +1100
              Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2016-02-29 17:40 +1300
      Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? "Sven R. Kunze" <srkunze@mail.de> - 2016-02-28 13:23 +0100
      Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-02-28 12:38 +0000
        Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 04:54 -0800
          Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-02-28 13:07 +0000
            Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 05:20 -0800
              Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-02-28 15:51 +0200
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 06:03 -0800
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-02-28 14:29 +0000
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-02-29 11:49 +1100
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-02-29 11:56 +0000
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2016-02-28 19:49 -0500
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-02-28 17:08 +0200
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 08:41 -0800
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-02-28 23:38 +0200
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-02-29 15:47 +1100
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-02-29 08:18 +0200
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 23:20 -0800
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 19:20 +1100
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-02-29 10:37 +0200
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-02-29 15:43 +0000
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-03-01 03:17 +1100
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-02-29 18:17 +0000
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-03-01 05:31 +1100
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-02-29 10:25 +0200
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 19:33 +1100
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-02-29 10:46 +0200
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-02 03:44 +1100
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-03-02 05:07 +1100
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-02 13:22 +1100
                Speaking of Javascript [was Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE?] Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-03 04:05 +1100
                Re: Speaking of Javascript [was Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE?] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-03-03 04:46 +1100
                Re: Speaking of Javascript [was Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE?] Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2016-03-02 18:29 +0000
                Re: Speaking of Javascript [was Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE?] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-03-03 07:55 +1100
                Re: Speaking of Javascript [was Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE?] Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2016-03-02 22:01 +0000
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2016-02-29 21:33 -0500
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-03-01 15:31 +1100
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-03-02 20:44 +1100
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-03-02 13:57 +0200
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-02-29 11:14 +1100
            Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-02-28 12:08 -0500
        Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-02 03:35 +1100
          Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-03-01 20:06 +0200
            Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2016-03-01 11:30 -0800
              Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2016-03-01 11:39 -0800
            Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-02 12:51 +1100
              Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-03-02 13:15 +1100
              Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-03-02 07:41 +0200
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-03-02 16:58 +1100
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-03-02 10:20 +0200
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2016-03-02 23:00 +0100
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-03-03 00:36 +0200
      Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Dietmar Schwertberger <maillist@schwertberger.de> - 2016-02-28 13:38 +0100
        Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? cl@isbd.net - 2016-02-28 12:52 +0000
          Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Dietmar Schwertberger <maillist@schwertberger.de> - 2016-02-28 14:19 +0100
      Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-02-28 12:03 -0500
      Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Dietmar Schwertberger <maillist@schwertberger.de> - 2016-02-28 18:41 +0100
  Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-02-27 13:35 +0000
  Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? MWS <miragewebstudio12@gmail.com> - 2016-02-27 20:05 +0530
  Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Dietmar Schwertberger <maillist@schwertberger.de> - 2016-02-27 15:20 +0100
    Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? wrong.address.1@gmail.com - 2016-02-27 10:13 -0800
      Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 05:29 +1100
      Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-02-27 20:35 +0200
      Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Dietmar Schwertberger <maillist@schwertberger.de> - 2016-02-27 19:51 +0100
      Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Dietmar Schwertberger <maillist@schwertberger.de> - 2016-02-28 00:20 +0100
      Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-02-28 16:49 +1100
      Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Sibylle Koczian <nulla.epistola@web.de> - 2016-02-28 11:46 +0100
      Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Virgil Stokes <vs@it.uu.se> - 2016-02-28 12:26 +0100
      Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Sibylle Koczian <nulla.epistola@web.de> - 2016-02-28 11:46 +0100
      Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> - 2016-02-28 18:47 +0000
        Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Dietmar Schwertberger <maillist@schwertberger.de> - 2016-02-28 20:09 +0100
      Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 18:24 -0700
      Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Mike S <mscir@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-02 23:27 -0800
  Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Marco Kaulea <marco.kaulea@gmail.com> - 2016-02-27 18:57 +0100
  Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Anthony Papillion <anthony@cajuntechie.org> - 2016-02-27 13:45 -0600
  Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-02-27 20:52 +0000
  Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2016-02-27 21:35 +0000
  Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Mike <termim@gmail.com> - 2016-03-01 19:46 -0800

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