Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE?

From	Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Subject	Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE?
Date	2016-03-01 05:31 +1100
Message-ID	<mailman.36.1456770685.20602.python-list@python.org> (permalink)
References	(12 earlier) <c0c563c0-1caf-4d3b-93f8-c62db864b5a3@googlegroups.com> <mailman.2.1456734047.20602.python-list@python.org> <nb1ovl$ad7$1@reader1.panix.com> <mailman.20.1456762687.20602.python-list@python.org> <nb21vg$ciq$1@reader1.panix.com>

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On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 5:17 AM, Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> A lot of web sites these days load nothing but a script
>> that goes and loads everything else, while you gaze at a splash
>> screen. IMO that's unideal.
>
> :)
>
> "Unideal" is too kind -- I would described it as something more like
> "the evil spawn of brain-dead incompetents".  I often wonder what
> sequence of decisions/accidents get people to "solutions" like that.

I do understand where the thinking comes from, though.

1) Pages should be more responsive than the 1990s-style CGI model,
where every action is a link or button click that completely replaces
the current page.
2) Many actions therefore must be implemented using JavaScript, an
AJAX call (if necessary), and DOM manipulation to change just the
parts of the page that need to be changed.
3) This means that the entire content of the page must be under JS
control, and the entire "user-accessible" part of the back end should
be returning JSON, since that's what #2 requires.
4) If everything has to be under JS control, why not just send out a
stub to start with, and begin everything with an AJAX call? That way,
we don't need to maintain two of everything!

The logic is reasonable. Deduplication is valuable. But the result is
a web site that has a stubby splash screen until the back end
responds, and that's why I call it merely "unideal" rather than "evil
spawn &c".

>> However, even that is probably a losing battle. :(
>
> At least the era of using giant tables full of fragements of a single
> large gif image to do page-layout seems to have died a long-overdue
> death...

Oh yes, I do not miss those days! And it was compounded by browsers
that, when they started receiving a <table> tag, drew nothing
whatsoever until they received the </table> and could lay the whole
thing out. Add to that slow internet connections, so it would likely
be some seconds or even a minute or more before the </table> arrives,
and you have a perfect recipe for frustration.

But no web site these days would ever make you wait for its contents.
'Course not.

ChrisA

Thread

Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? wrong.address.1@gmail.com - 2016-02-27 03:18 -0800
  Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-02-27 22:36 +1100
  Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-02-27 04:02 -0800
  Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-02-27 23:07 +1100
    Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-02-28 17:34 +1100
      Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-02-27 23:39 -0800
        Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 19:49 +1100
      Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 19:44 +1100
        Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 02:25 -0800
          Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 21:34 +1100
            Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-02-29 00:08 +1100
              Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 05:13 -0800
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-02-29 00:24 +1100
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 05:49 -0800
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Chris Warrick <kwpolska@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 15:00 +0100
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 06:11 -0800
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Chris Warrick <kwpolska@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 15:26 +0100
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 08:50 -0800
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-02-29 11:39 +1100
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 11:54 +1100
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2016-02-29 12:05 +1100
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 12:13 +1100
                Lineendings (was Everything good about Python except GUI IDE?) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 17:39 -0800
                Re: Lineendings (was Everything good about Python except GUI IDE?) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 12:49 +1100
                Re: Lineendings (was Everything good about Python except GUI IDE?) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 17:55 -0800
                Re: Lineendings (was Everything good about Python except GUI IDE?) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 13:02 +1100
                Re: Lineendings (was Everything good about Python except GUI IDE?) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 18:08 -0800
                Re: Lineendings (was Everything good about Python except GUI IDE?) Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2016-02-29 13:35 +1100
                Re: Lineendings (was Everything good about Python except GUI IDE?) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 20:48 -0800
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-02-28 17:09 +0000
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-02-28 11:56 -0500
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-03-02 20:44 +1100
        Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-02-28 23:50 +1100
          Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 04:53 +1100
            Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-02-29 13:22 +1100
              Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2016-02-29 17:40 +1300
      Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? "Sven R. Kunze" <srkunze@mail.de> - 2016-02-28 13:23 +0100
      Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-02-28 12:38 +0000
        Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 04:54 -0800
          Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-02-28 13:07 +0000
            Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 05:20 -0800
              Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-02-28 15:51 +0200
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 06:03 -0800
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-02-28 14:29 +0000
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-02-29 11:49 +1100
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-02-29 11:56 +0000
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2016-02-28 19:49 -0500
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-02-28 17:08 +0200
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 08:41 -0800
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-02-28 23:38 +0200
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-02-29 15:47 +1100
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-02-29 08:18 +0200
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 23:20 -0800
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 19:20 +1100
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-02-29 10:37 +0200
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-02-29 15:43 +0000
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-03-01 03:17 +1100
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-02-29 18:17 +0000
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-03-01 05:31 +1100
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-02-29 10:25 +0200
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 19:33 +1100
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-02-29 10:46 +0200
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-02 03:44 +1100
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-03-02 05:07 +1100
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-02 13:22 +1100
                Speaking of Javascript [was Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE?] Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-03 04:05 +1100
                Re: Speaking of Javascript [was Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE?] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-03-03 04:46 +1100
                Re: Speaking of Javascript [was Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE?] Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2016-03-02 18:29 +0000
                Re: Speaking of Javascript [was Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE?] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-03-03 07:55 +1100
                Re: Speaking of Javascript [was Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE?] Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2016-03-02 22:01 +0000
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2016-02-29 21:33 -0500
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-03-01 15:31 +1100
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-03-02 20:44 +1100
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-03-02 13:57 +0200
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-02-29 11:14 +1100
            Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-02-28 12:08 -0500
        Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-02 03:35 +1100
          Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-03-01 20:06 +0200
            Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2016-03-01 11:30 -0800
              Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2016-03-01 11:39 -0800
            Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-02 12:51 +1100
              Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-03-02 13:15 +1100
              Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-03-02 07:41 +0200
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-03-02 16:58 +1100
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-03-02 10:20 +0200
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2016-03-02 23:00 +0100
                Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-03-03 00:36 +0200
      Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Dietmar Schwertberger <maillist@schwertberger.de> - 2016-02-28 13:38 +0100
        Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? cl@isbd.net - 2016-02-28 12:52 +0000
          Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Dietmar Schwertberger <maillist@schwertberger.de> - 2016-02-28 14:19 +0100
      Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-02-28 12:03 -0500
      Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Dietmar Schwertberger <maillist@schwertberger.de> - 2016-02-28 18:41 +0100
  Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-02-27 13:35 +0000
  Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? MWS <miragewebstudio12@gmail.com> - 2016-02-27 20:05 +0530
  Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Dietmar Schwertberger <maillist@schwertberger.de> - 2016-02-27 15:20 +0100
    Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? wrong.address.1@gmail.com - 2016-02-27 10:13 -0800
      Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 05:29 +1100
      Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-02-27 20:35 +0200
      Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Dietmar Schwertberger <maillist@schwertberger.de> - 2016-02-27 19:51 +0100
      Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Dietmar Schwertberger <maillist@schwertberger.de> - 2016-02-28 00:20 +0100
      Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-02-28 16:49 +1100
      Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Sibylle Koczian <nulla.epistola@web.de> - 2016-02-28 11:46 +0100
      Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Virgil Stokes <vs@it.uu.se> - 2016-02-28 12:26 +0100
      Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Sibylle Koczian <nulla.epistola@web.de> - 2016-02-28 11:46 +0100
      Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> - 2016-02-28 18:47 +0000
        Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Dietmar Schwertberger <maillist@schwertberger.de> - 2016-02-28 20:09 +0100
      Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 18:24 -0700
      Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Mike S <mscir@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-02 23:27 -0800
  Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Marco Kaulea <marco.kaulea@gmail.com> - 2016-02-27 18:57 +0100
  Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Anthony Papillion <anthony@cajuntechie.org> - 2016-02-27 13:45 -0600
  Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-02-27 20:52 +0000
  Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2016-02-27 21:35 +0000
  Re: Everything good about Python except GUI IDE? Mike <termim@gmail.com> - 2016-03-01 19:46 -0800

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