Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings)

From	Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Subject	Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings)
Date	2016-07-18 20:15 +1000
Message-ID	<mailman.71.1468836914.2307.python-list@python.org> (permalink)
References	(13 earlier) <578a027c$0$1616$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <69d8d886-c18a-4c05-8bca-9a05afacd9a9@googlegroups.com> <578ca188$0$1505$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <877fcjcllf.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <CAPTjJmqYuhfR68g4EWWfj=GQSQMBmo3r3DRCej39xLtjPfR2ow@mail.gmail.com>

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On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 8:00 PM, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote:
> Python programmers (among others) frequently run into issues with
> surprising results in floating-point arithmetics. For better or worse,
> Scheme has tried to abstract the concept. You don't need to explain the
> ideas of IEEE 64-bit floating-point numbers or tie the hands of the
> implementation. Instead, what you have is "reliable" arithmetics and
> "best-effort" arithmetics, a bit like TCP is "reliable" and UDP is
> "best-effort".

The problem with that is that failing to explain IEEE floating point
and just calling it "inexact" scares people off unnecessarily. I've
seen a lot of very intelligent people who think that you should never
compare floats with the == operator, because floats randomly introduce
"inaccuracy". And then you get these sorts of functions:

EPSILON = 0.000001 # Adjust to control numeric accuracy
def is_equal(f1, f2, epsilon=EPSILON):
    if abs(f1) > abs(f2):
        f1, f2 = f2, f1
    return abs(f2-f1) < f1*epsilon

and interminable debates about how to pick an epsilon, whether it
should be relative to the smaller value (as here) or the larger (use
f2 instead), or maybe should be an absolute value, or maybe it should
be relative to the largest/smallest value that was ever involved in
the calculation, or........

Floating point numbers are a representation of real numbers that
involves a certain amount of precision. They're ultimately no
different from grade-school arithmetic where you round stuff off so
you don't need an infinite amount of paper, except that they work with
binary rather than decimal, so people think "0.1 + 0.2 ought to be
exactly 0.3, why isn't it??", and blame floats.

Explain what they REALLY do and how they work, and you'll find they're
not so scary.

ChrisA

Thread

Clean Singleton Docstrings Rob Gaddi <rgaddi@highlandtechnology.invalid> - 2016-07-07 23:46 +0000
  Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-07-08 12:53 +1000
  Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Michael Selik <michael.selik@gmail.com> - 2016-07-07 23:43 -0400
    Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Rob Gaddi <rgaddi@highlandtechnology.invalid> - 2016-07-08 16:57 +0000
      Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2016-07-08 13:00 -0700
  Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Peter Otten <__peter__@web.de> - 2016-07-08 09:38 +0200
    Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-07-08 19:20 +1000
      Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Rob Gaddi <rgaddi@highlandtechnology.invalid> - 2016-07-08 16:47 +0000
    Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Lawrence D’Oliveiro <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> - 2016-07-13 15:42 -0700
      Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Peter Otten <__peter__@web.de> - 2016-07-14 01:54 +0200
        Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-07-15 21:04 -0700
          Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2016-07-15 21:20 -0700
            Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-07-15 22:51 -0700
            Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Lawrence D’Oliveiro <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> - 2016-07-15 23:19 -0700
              Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-07-16 16:29 +1000
              Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-07-16 02:53 -0400
                Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-07-16 18:54 +1000
                Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-07-16 19:46 +1000
                What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-07-17 21:16 -0700
                Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-07-18 14:35 +1000
                Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-07-17 22:37 -0700
                Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-07-18 15:48 +1000
                Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-07-18 09:21 +0300
                Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-07-18 09:32 -0400
                Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2016-07-18 14:46 +1000
                Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-07-17 22:22 -0700
                Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2016-07-18 19:29 +1000
                Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-07-18 13:00 +0300
                Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-07-18 20:15 +1000
                Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-07-18 03:24 -0700
                Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-07-18 20:37 +1000
                Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-07-18 14:38 +0300
                Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Peter Otten <__peter__@web.de> - 2016-07-18 14:58 +0200
                Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-07-19 13:42 +1000
                Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-07-18 21:58 -0700
                Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-07-19 15:30 +1000
                Floating point equality [was Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings)] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2016-07-20 15:42 +1000
                Re: Floating point equality [was Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings)] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-07-20 16:11 +1000
                Re: Floating point equality [was Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings)] Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-07-20 09:09 +0200
                Re: Floating point equality [was Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings)] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-07-20 10:25 +0300
                Re: Floating point equality [was Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings)] Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-07-20 22:47 +1000
                Re: Floating point equality [was Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings)] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-07-20 16:54 +0300
                Re: Floating point equality [was Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings)] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-07-21 00:26 +1000
                Re: Floating point equality [was Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings)] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-07-20 17:59 +0300
                Re: Floating point equality [was Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings)] Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-07-20 22:38 -0700
                Re: Floating point equality [was Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings)] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-07-21 10:52 +0300
                Re: Floating point equality [was Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings)] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-07-21 18:46 +1000
                Re: Floating point equality [was Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings)] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-07-21 12:09 +0300
                Re: Floating point equality [was Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings)] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-22 00:54 +0100
                Re: Floating point equality [was Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings)] Chris Kaynor <ckaynor@zindagigames.com> - 2016-07-21 17:43 -0700
                Re: Floating point equality [was Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings)] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-22 17:14 +0100
                Re: Floating point equality [was Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings)] Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-07-20 22:28 -0700
                Re: Floating point equality [was Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings)] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-07-21 15:35 +1000
                Re: Floating point equality [was Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings)] Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-07-20 22:52 -0700
                Re: Floating point equality [was Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings)] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2016-07-21 16:34 +1000
                Re: Floating point equality [was Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings)] Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-07-21 06:14 -0700
                Re: Floating point equality [was Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings)] Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-07-22 02:10 +1000
                Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-07-19 15:27 +1000
                Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-07-18 03:14 -0700
                Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2016-07-18 09:25 -0600
                Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-07-18 18:40 +0300
                Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-07-18 18:55 +0300
                Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2016-07-18 11:13 -0600
                Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-07-18 21:58 +0300
                Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-07-18 17:36 -0700
                Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-07-19 13:16 +1000
                Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-07-18 20:26 -0700
                Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2016-07-19 01:22 -0400
                Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> - 2016-07-19 10:46 -0700
                Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2016-07-19 16:35 -0400
                Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-07-20 01:17 +0300
                Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-07-19 23:15 -0400
                Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-07-20 10:16 +0300
                Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-07-20 10:00 -0400
                Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2016-07-21 10:46 +1200
                Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2016-07-19 16:27 -0600
                Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-07-20 02:09 +0300
                Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2016-07-20 13:24 +0000
                Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-07-21 14:04 +1000
                Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> - 2016-07-19 17:01 -0700
                Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2016-07-20 11:07 +1200
                Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-07-20 02:20 +0300
                Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-07-19 13:03 +1000
                Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-07-18 09:25 -0400
                Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-07-19 13:21 +1000
                Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2016-07-19 10:21 +1000
              Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-07-16 17:27 +1000
                Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-07-16 10:58 +0300
              Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-07-16 14:04 -0400
                Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-07-16 21:43 +0300
              Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-07-17 07:02 +1000
                Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-07-17 00:27 +0300
                Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-07-17 08:18 +1000
                Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-07-17 10:41 +0300
                Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-07-17 17:51 +1000
                Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-07-17 04:03 -0400
                Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-07-17 20:35 +1000
                Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-07-17 04:08 -0400
                Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-07-17 18:44 +1000
      Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2016-07-13 18:25 -0600
  Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Peter Otten <__peter__@web.de> - 2016-07-08 09:44 +0200
    Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-07-08 01:53 -0700
  Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2016-07-19 23:16 -0400

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