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| From | Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> |
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.python |
| Subject | Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) |
| Date | Mon, 18 Jul 2016 20:15:10 +1000 |
| Lines | 38 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.71.1468836914.2307.python-list@python.org> (permalink) |
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| Xref | csiph.com comp.lang.python:111600 |
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On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 8:00 PM, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote:
> Python programmers (among others) frequently run into issues with
> surprising results in floating-point arithmetics. For better or worse,
> Scheme has tried to abstract the concept. You don't need to explain the
> ideas of IEEE 64-bit floating-point numbers or tie the hands of the
> implementation. Instead, what you have is "reliable" arithmetics and
> "best-effort" arithmetics, a bit like TCP is "reliable" and UDP is
> "best-effort".
The problem with that is that failing to explain IEEE floating point
and just calling it "inexact" scares people off unnecessarily. I've
seen a lot of very intelligent people who think that you should never
compare floats with the == operator, because floats randomly introduce
"inaccuracy". And then you get these sorts of functions:
EPSILON = 0.000001 # Adjust to control numeric accuracy
def is_equal(f1, f2, epsilon=EPSILON):
if abs(f1) > abs(f2):
f1, f2 = f2, f1
return abs(f2-f1) < f1*epsilon
and interminable debates about how to pick an epsilon, whether it
should be relative to the smaller value (as here) or the larger (use
f2 instead), or maybe should be an absolute value, or maybe it should
be relative to the largest/smallest value that was ever involved in
the calculation, or........
Floating point numbers are a representation of real numbers that
involves a certain amount of precision. They're ultimately no
different from grade-school arithmetic where you round stuff off so
you don't need an infinite amount of paper, except that they work with
binary rather than decimal, so people think "0.1 + 0.2 ought to be
exactly 0.3, why isn't it??", and blame floats.
Explain what they REALLY do and how they work, and you'll find they're
not so scary.
ChrisA
Back to comp.lang.python | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread
Clean Singleton Docstrings Rob Gaddi <rgaddi@highlandtechnology.invalid> - 2016-07-07 23:46 +0000
Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-07-08 12:53 +1000
Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Michael Selik <michael.selik@gmail.com> - 2016-07-07 23:43 -0400
Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Rob Gaddi <rgaddi@highlandtechnology.invalid> - 2016-07-08 16:57 +0000
Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2016-07-08 13:00 -0700
Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Peter Otten <__peter__@web.de> - 2016-07-08 09:38 +0200
Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-07-08 19:20 +1000
Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Rob Gaddi <rgaddi@highlandtechnology.invalid> - 2016-07-08 16:47 +0000
Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Lawrence D’Oliveiro <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> - 2016-07-13 15:42 -0700
Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Peter Otten <__peter__@web.de> - 2016-07-14 01:54 +0200
Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-07-15 21:04 -0700
Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2016-07-15 21:20 -0700
Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-07-15 22:51 -0700
Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Lawrence D’Oliveiro <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> - 2016-07-15 23:19 -0700
Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-07-16 16:29 +1000
Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-07-16 02:53 -0400
Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-07-16 18:54 +1000
Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-07-16 19:46 +1000
What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-07-17 21:16 -0700
Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-07-18 14:35 +1000
Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-07-17 22:37 -0700
Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-07-18 15:48 +1000
Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-07-18 09:21 +0300
Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-07-18 09:32 -0400
Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2016-07-18 14:46 +1000
Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-07-17 22:22 -0700
Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2016-07-18 19:29 +1000
Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-07-18 13:00 +0300
Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-07-18 20:15 +1000
Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-07-18 03:24 -0700
Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-07-18 20:37 +1000
Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-07-18 14:38 +0300
Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Peter Otten <__peter__@web.de> - 2016-07-18 14:58 +0200
Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-07-19 13:42 +1000
Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-07-18 21:58 -0700
Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-07-19 15:30 +1000
Floating point equality [was Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings)] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2016-07-20 15:42 +1000
Re: Floating point equality [was Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings)] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-07-20 16:11 +1000
Re: Floating point equality [was Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings)] Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-07-20 09:09 +0200
Re: Floating point equality [was Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings)] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-07-20 10:25 +0300
Re: Floating point equality [was Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings)] Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-07-20 22:47 +1000
Re: Floating point equality [was Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings)] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-07-20 16:54 +0300
Re: Floating point equality [was Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings)] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-07-21 00:26 +1000
Re: Floating point equality [was Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings)] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-07-20 17:59 +0300
Re: Floating point equality [was Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings)] Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-07-20 22:38 -0700
Re: Floating point equality [was Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings)] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-07-21 10:52 +0300
Re: Floating point equality [was Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings)] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-07-21 18:46 +1000
Re: Floating point equality [was Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings)] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-07-21 12:09 +0300
Re: Floating point equality [was Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings)] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-22 00:54 +0100
Re: Floating point equality [was Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings)] Chris Kaynor <ckaynor@zindagigames.com> - 2016-07-21 17:43 -0700
Re: Floating point equality [was Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings)] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-22 17:14 +0100
Re: Floating point equality [was Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings)] Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-07-20 22:28 -0700
Re: Floating point equality [was Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings)] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-07-21 15:35 +1000
Re: Floating point equality [was Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings)] Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-07-20 22:52 -0700
Re: Floating point equality [was Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings)] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2016-07-21 16:34 +1000
Re: Floating point equality [was Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings)] Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-07-21 06:14 -0700
Re: Floating point equality [was Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings)] Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-07-22 02:10 +1000
Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-07-19 15:27 +1000
Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-07-18 03:14 -0700
Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2016-07-18 09:25 -0600
Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-07-18 18:40 +0300
Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-07-18 18:55 +0300
Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2016-07-18 11:13 -0600
Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-07-18 21:58 +0300
Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-07-18 17:36 -0700
Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-07-19 13:16 +1000
Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-07-18 20:26 -0700
Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2016-07-19 01:22 -0400
Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> - 2016-07-19 10:46 -0700
Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2016-07-19 16:35 -0400
Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-07-20 01:17 +0300
Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-07-19 23:15 -0400
Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-07-20 10:16 +0300
Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-07-20 10:00 -0400
Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2016-07-21 10:46 +1200
Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2016-07-19 16:27 -0600
Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-07-20 02:09 +0300
Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2016-07-20 13:24 +0000
Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-07-21 14:04 +1000
Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> - 2016-07-19 17:01 -0700
Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2016-07-20 11:07 +1200
Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-07-20 02:20 +0300
Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-07-19 13:03 +1000
Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-07-18 09:25 -0400
Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-07-19 13:21 +1000
Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2016-07-19 10:21 +1000
Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-07-16 17:27 +1000
Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-07-16 10:58 +0300
Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-07-16 14:04 -0400
Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-07-16 21:43 +0300
Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-07-17 07:02 +1000
Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-07-17 00:27 +0300
Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-07-17 08:18 +1000
Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-07-17 10:41 +0300
Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-07-17 17:51 +1000
Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-07-17 04:03 -0400
Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-07-17 20:35 +1000
Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-07-17 04:08 -0400
Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-07-17 18:44 +1000
Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2016-07-13 18:25 -0600
Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Peter Otten <__peter__@web.de> - 2016-07-08 09:44 +0200
Re: Clean Singleton Docstrings Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-07-08 01:53 -0700
Re: What exactly is "exact" (was Clean Singleton Docstrings) Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2016-07-19 23:16 -0400
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