Re: Question about math.pi is mutable

From	Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Subject	Re: Question about math.pi is mutable
Date	2015-11-10 03:30 -0500
Message-ID	<mailman.200.1447144233.16136.python-list@python.org> (permalink)
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On 11/9/2015 9:37 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

> The compiler doesn't need to decide *in advance* whether the attribute might
> have changed. It knows whether it has changed or not *at runtime*.

You are using 'compiler' when you should, to avoid confusion, use 
'interpreter'.

> It's one thing to say that *in principle* any function might modify or
> shadow builtins. That's true, because we don't know what's inside the
> function. But the compiler knows, because it actually executes the code

'interpreter'

> inside the function and can see what happens when it does. It doesn't have
> to predict in advance whether or not calling `func(x)` shadows the builtin
> `len` function, *it can see for itself* whether it did or not.
>
> At compile time, `func(x)` might do anything. But at runtime, we know
> exactly what it did, because it just did it.
>
> Imagine that the compiler keeps track of whether or not builtins has been

/compiler/code compiled by the compiler and interpreted by the 
interpreter (which could be the CPU)/

> modified. Think of it as a simple "dirty" flag that says "yes, builtins is
> still pristine" or "no, something may have shadowed or modified the
> builtins". That's fairly straight-forward: builtins is a dict, and the
> compiler can tell whether or not __setitem__ etc has been called on that
> dict. Likewise, it can keep track of whether or not a global has been
> created that shadows builtins: some of that can be done statically, at
> compile-time, but most of it needs to be done dynamically, at runtime.

This is more or less Victor Stinner's proposal, and he has a working 
prototype that runs nearly all the test suite.  He now plans to refine 
it and measure changes in space and time usage.

> If the flag is set, the compiler knows that the optimization is unsafe and
> it has to follow the standard name lookup, and you lose nothing: the
> standard Python semantics are still followed. But if the flag is clear, the
> compiler knows that nothing has shadowed or modified builtins, and a whole
> class of optimizations are safe. It can replace a call to (say) len(x) with
> a fast jump, avoiding an unnecessary name lookup in globals, and another
> unnecessary name lookup in builtins. Or it might even inline the call to
> len. Since *most* code doesn't play tricks with builtins, the overhead of
> tracking these changes pays off *most* of the time -- and when it doesn't,
> the penalty is very small.


-- 
Terry Jan Reedy

Thread

Question about math.pi is mutable "wangq@travelsky.com" <wangq@travelsky.com> - 2015-11-06 10:33 +0800
  Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-06 12:30 +0000
    Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Lorenzo Sutton <lorenzofsutton@gmail.com> - 2015-11-06 17:12 +0100
      Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-06 19:30 +0000
        Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-11-07 06:40 +1100
          Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2015-11-06 20:59 +0100
          Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-11-06 23:19 +0100
            Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-11-07 00:48 +0100
            Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-07 13:00 +1100
        Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-11-07 14:43 +1100
          Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-07 11:23 +0000
            Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-11-07 22:35 +1100
              Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-07 11:57 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-11-07 23:15 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-07 13:00 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Laura Creighton <lac@openend.se> - 2015-11-07 15:09 +0100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-11-07 16:23 +0200
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-11-07 16:28 +0200
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-07 15:01 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-11-07 19:46 +0200
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-08 14:07 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2015-11-08 01:29 -0500
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-08 13:59 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-08 10:40 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-11-08 13:02 +0200
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-08 11:19 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-11-08 13:50 +0200
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-08 12:39 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-11-08 14:43 +0200
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-08 13:42 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-11-08 16:33 +0200
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-11-09 02:11 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-09 11:58 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 23:28 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-09 11:35 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 08:59 -0700
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-08 17:54 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-11-09 05:01 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-08 18:58 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 12:51 -0700
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-11-08 18:13 -0500
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-08 23:54 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-11-09 11:00 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-09 00:11 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-11-09 08:18 -0500
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-11-09 11:04 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-11-09 11:26 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-11-09 21:29 +1300
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-11-09 11:36 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-11-09 11:50 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-11-09 11:56 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-11-09 12:04 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-09 22:22 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2015-11-09 10:32 -0500
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-11-10 06:45 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-10 13:37 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-11-10 17:10 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-10 22:34 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-10 13:26 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-11 18:38 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-11-11 10:30 +0200
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-11 22:20 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2015-11-10 03:30 -0500
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Laura Creighton <lac@openend.se> - 2015-11-10 11:33 +0100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-11-10 23:14 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-11 12:10 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Laura Creighton <lac@openend.se> - 2015-11-09 21:07 +0100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-11-10 10:21 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-09 16:54 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-11-10 06:52 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-11-09 08:00 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-08 22:35 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-11-09 09:54 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-09 13:23 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-09 12:22 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-11-09 23:36 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-08 22:30 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-08 12:24 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-11-07 16:16 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-11-07 20:00 +0200
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-11-08 03:31 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-11-08 09:45 +0200
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2015-11-08 09:00 +0100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-08 00:08 -0800
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-11-08 11:49 +0200
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-11-09 14:49 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-07 15:19 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-08 14:50 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-11-08 11:44 +0200
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-08 22:11 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-11-08 13:25 +0200
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-08 11:06 +0000
        Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-11-09 15:49 +0100
        Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-11-10 10:29 +1100
        Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-11-10 11:03 +0100
        Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-11-13 20:11 -0700
        Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-11-14 16:02 +0100
    Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-11-06 23:26 +0100
      Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2015-11-06 20:49 -0500
      Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-07 13:06 +1100
      Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-07 23:02 +0000
        Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-11-07 23:27 +0000
        Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-11-08 10:32 +1100
        Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 10:52 +1100
          Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-11-12 21:40 +0100
            Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-13 09:04 +1100
              Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2015-11-13 09:19 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Larry Hudson <orgnut@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-13 18:30 -0800
            Re: Question about math.pi is mutable BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-12 22:19 +0000
              Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-11-13 09:52 +1100

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