Re: Question about math.pi is mutable

From	Bartc <bc@freeuk.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Subject	Re: Question about math.pi is mutable
Date	2015-11-07 13:00 +0000
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<n1kshk$brb$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(4 earlier) <mailman.103.1446867842.16136.python-list@python.org> <n1kmse$p0o$1@dont-email.me> <mailman.104.1446896120.16136.python-list@python.org> <n1koqr$v63$1@dont-email.me> <mailman.105.1446898544.16136.python-list@python.org>

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On 07/11/2015 12:15, Ben Finney wrote:
> Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> writes:
>
>> To my mind, Python allows far too much freedom in being able to change
>> anything at any time.
>
> You're welcome to that opinion. I don't see you present a reason why it
> should affect anyone else's opinion of Python, though.

Not just my option. From this 2010 paper for example ('High performance 
implementation of Python for CLI ...' by Antonio Cuni):

"As a language, Python is very hard to implement efficiently: the 
presence of highly dynamic constructs makes static analysis of programs 
extremely difficult, thus preventing ahead of time (AOT) compilers to 
generate efficient target code."

>> Yet Python has to assume 100% of the time that it could have been
>> changed. Think of the opportunities for optimising if the probability
>> was 0%.
>
> Such a pity that Python is missing all those opportunities for
> widespread adoption, by not hewing closer to your preferences.

Plenty of other people working on faster Pythons appear to have trouble 
with its being so dynamic.

(Earlier this year, I was upgrading my own language to be much more 
Python-like in its internal workings. But I gave it up because I was 
losing so many nice features that also made it easy to implement 
efficiently.

As one example of many, named constants (the 'const' feature earlier in 
the thread), were used for 'switch' statements. Without 'const', then I 
couldn't have a fast 'switch'.)

I suppose my coding style is just different from people who write 
Python. When I define a function f(), then it's always going to be 
function f and is never going to change. A call to such a function can 
therefore be streamlined.

If I ever need it to be dynamic, then I use a function pointer:

   g=f

f is still the static function, g is a now a reference to it, and is a 
little slower to call. But the /vast majority/ of function calls are 
going to be static.

-- 
Bartc

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Question about math.pi is mutable "wangq@travelsky.com" <wangq@travelsky.com> - 2015-11-06 10:33 +0800
  Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-06 12:30 +0000
    Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Lorenzo Sutton <lorenzofsutton@gmail.com> - 2015-11-06 17:12 +0100
      Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-06 19:30 +0000
        Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-11-07 06:40 +1100
          Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2015-11-06 20:59 +0100
          Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-11-06 23:19 +0100
            Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-11-07 00:48 +0100
            Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-07 13:00 +1100
        Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-11-07 14:43 +1100
          Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-07 11:23 +0000
            Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-11-07 22:35 +1100
              Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-07 11:57 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-11-07 23:15 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-07 13:00 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Laura Creighton <lac@openend.se> - 2015-11-07 15:09 +0100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-11-07 16:23 +0200
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-11-07 16:28 +0200
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-07 15:01 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-11-07 19:46 +0200
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-08 14:07 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2015-11-08 01:29 -0500
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-08 13:59 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-08 10:40 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-11-08 13:02 +0200
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-08 11:19 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-11-08 13:50 +0200
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-08 12:39 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-11-08 14:43 +0200
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-08 13:42 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-11-08 16:33 +0200
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-11-09 02:11 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-09 11:58 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 23:28 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-09 11:35 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 08:59 -0700
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-08 17:54 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-11-09 05:01 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-08 18:58 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 12:51 -0700
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-11-08 18:13 -0500
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-08 23:54 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-11-09 11:00 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-09 00:11 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-11-09 08:18 -0500
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-11-09 11:04 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-11-09 11:26 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-11-09 21:29 +1300
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-11-09 11:36 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-11-09 11:50 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-11-09 11:56 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-11-09 12:04 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-09 22:22 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2015-11-09 10:32 -0500
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-11-10 06:45 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-10 13:37 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-11-10 17:10 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-10 22:34 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-10 13:26 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-11 18:38 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-11-11 10:30 +0200
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-11 22:20 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2015-11-10 03:30 -0500
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Laura Creighton <lac@openend.se> - 2015-11-10 11:33 +0100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-11-10 23:14 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-11 12:10 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Laura Creighton <lac@openend.se> - 2015-11-09 21:07 +0100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-11-10 10:21 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-09 16:54 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-11-10 06:52 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-11-09 08:00 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-08 22:35 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-11-09 09:54 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-09 13:23 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-09 12:22 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-11-09 23:36 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-08 22:30 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-08 12:24 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-11-07 16:16 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-11-07 20:00 +0200
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-11-08 03:31 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-11-08 09:45 +0200
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2015-11-08 09:00 +0100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-08 00:08 -0800
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-11-08 11:49 +0200
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-11-09 14:49 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-07 15:19 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-08 14:50 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-11-08 11:44 +0200
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-08 22:11 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-11-08 13:25 +0200
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-08 11:06 +0000
        Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-11-09 15:49 +0100
        Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-11-10 10:29 +1100
        Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-11-10 11:03 +0100
        Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-11-13 20:11 -0700
        Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-11-14 16:02 +0100
    Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-11-06 23:26 +0100
      Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2015-11-06 20:49 -0500
      Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-07 13:06 +1100
      Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-07 23:02 +0000
        Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-11-07 23:27 +0000
        Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-11-08 10:32 +1100
        Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 10:52 +1100
          Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-11-12 21:40 +0100
            Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-13 09:04 +1100
              Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2015-11-13 09:19 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Larry Hudson <orgnut@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-13 18:30 -0800
            Re: Question about math.pi is mutable BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-12 22:19 +0000
              Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-11-13 09:52 +1100

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