Re: Question about math.pi is mutable

From	Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Subject	Re: Question about math.pi is mutable
Date	2015-11-09 11:36 +1100
Message-ID	<mailman.156.1447029391.16136.python-list@python.org> (permalink)
References	(12 earlier) <mailman.152.1447024427.16136.python-list@python.org> <n1on71$san$1@dont-email.me> <8537wghwjb.fsf@benfinney.id.au> <CAPTjJmo=4p3DnvcLY_whdzaiy1t-sTyok20U9M0nQsNCg9_E=Q@mail.gmail.com> <85y4e8ggrj.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

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On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 11:26 AM, Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
> Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Testing/mocking is a completely separate consideration (eg you can
>> inject a shadow for a built-in name)
>
> Not for the purpose of making compiler optimisations, as BartC is
> advocating.
>
> The compiler definitely should not treat “is this code part of a test
> suite?” as a relevant criterion for deciding what optimisation. We
> should certainly not have a compiler that makes needless difference to
> code behaviour under test conditions versus non-test conditions.
>
> So, since those optimisations would cripple perfectly normal test code,
> that should be sufficient to quash the desire to make them.

But I distinguish between crippling *performance* and crippling
*functionality*. If the compiler optimizations are defeated, so the
test suite falls back on the slow path, that means your tests run
slower. Unless you're testing the optimizer itself, this shouldn't be
a problem.

This is broadly the same kinds of optimizations that Fat Python is
playing with. Effectively, what it says is "I think that 'len' is this
object", and then it guards the fast path with a quick check for
validity. So if you go in and change something, the result is that the
slow path gets used instead.

The question then is whether it's worth the optimization effort. Will
the slow path be penalized more than the fast path gains? Will the
code complexity introduce more bugs? The same consideration comes up
in JavaScript/ECMAScript (where object attributes can also be created
dynamically), and I know some interpreters have been written to do a
slot-based lookup, so the concept does have at least some merit.

Personally, I'm dubious about the value of this in CPython; but I'm
willing to be persuaded.

ChrisA

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Question about math.pi is mutable "wangq@travelsky.com" <wangq@travelsky.com> - 2015-11-06 10:33 +0800
  Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-06 12:30 +0000
    Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Lorenzo Sutton <lorenzofsutton@gmail.com> - 2015-11-06 17:12 +0100
      Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-06 19:30 +0000
        Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-11-07 06:40 +1100
          Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2015-11-06 20:59 +0100
          Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-11-06 23:19 +0100
            Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-11-07 00:48 +0100
            Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-07 13:00 +1100
        Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-11-07 14:43 +1100
          Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-07 11:23 +0000
            Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-11-07 22:35 +1100
              Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-07 11:57 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-11-07 23:15 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-07 13:00 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Laura Creighton <lac@openend.se> - 2015-11-07 15:09 +0100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-11-07 16:23 +0200
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-11-07 16:28 +0200
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-07 15:01 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-11-07 19:46 +0200
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-08 14:07 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2015-11-08 01:29 -0500
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-08 13:59 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-08 10:40 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-11-08 13:02 +0200
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-08 11:19 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-11-08 13:50 +0200
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-08 12:39 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-11-08 14:43 +0200
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-08 13:42 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-11-08 16:33 +0200
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-11-09 02:11 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-09 11:58 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 23:28 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-09 11:35 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 08:59 -0700
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-08 17:54 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-11-09 05:01 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-08 18:58 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 12:51 -0700
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-11-08 18:13 -0500
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-08 23:54 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-11-09 11:00 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-09 00:11 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-11-09 08:18 -0500
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-11-09 11:04 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-11-09 11:26 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-11-09 21:29 +1300
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-11-09 11:36 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-11-09 11:50 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-11-09 11:56 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-11-09 12:04 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-09 22:22 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2015-11-09 10:32 -0500
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-11-10 06:45 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-10 13:37 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-11-10 17:10 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-10 22:34 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-10 13:26 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-11 18:38 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-11-11 10:30 +0200
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-11 22:20 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2015-11-10 03:30 -0500
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Laura Creighton <lac@openend.se> - 2015-11-10 11:33 +0100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-11-10 23:14 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-11 12:10 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Laura Creighton <lac@openend.se> - 2015-11-09 21:07 +0100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-11-10 10:21 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-09 16:54 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-11-10 06:52 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-11-09 08:00 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-08 22:35 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-11-09 09:54 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-09 13:23 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-09 12:22 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-11-09 23:36 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-08 22:30 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-08 12:24 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-11-07 16:16 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-11-07 20:00 +0200
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-11-08 03:31 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-11-08 09:45 +0200
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2015-11-08 09:00 +0100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-08 00:08 -0800
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-11-08 11:49 +0200
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-11-09 14:49 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-07 15:19 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-08 14:50 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-11-08 11:44 +0200
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-08 22:11 +1100
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-11-08 13:25 +0200
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-08 11:06 +0000
        Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-11-09 15:49 +0100
        Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-11-10 10:29 +1100
        Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-11-10 11:03 +0100
        Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-11-13 20:11 -0700
        Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-11-14 16:02 +0100
    Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-11-06 23:26 +0100
      Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2015-11-06 20:49 -0500
      Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-07 13:06 +1100
      Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-07 23:02 +0000
        Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-11-07 23:27 +0000
        Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-11-08 10:32 +1100
        Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 10:52 +1100
          Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-11-12 21:40 +0100
            Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-11-13 09:04 +1100
              Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2015-11-13 09:19 +0000
                Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Larry Hudson <orgnut@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-13 18:30 -0800
            Re: Question about math.pi is mutable BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-12 22:19 +0000
              Re: Question about math.pi is mutable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-11-13 09:52 +1100

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