Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method

References	(4 earlier) <R1elp.6224$sP1.5155@newsfe07.iad> <mailman.85.1301677576.2990.python-list@python.org> <y_xlp.24978$tL6.16271@newsfe03.iad> <mailman.119.1301720798.2990.python-list@python.org> <8kylp.4903$yp3.4046@newsfe09.iad>
Date	2011-04-02 17:17 +1100
Subject	Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method
From	Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Message-ID	<mailman.121.1301725067.2990.python-list@python.org> (permalink)

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On Sat, Apr 2, 2011 at 4:17 PM, harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> wrote:
> Chris Angelico wrote:
>>
>> Why this lengthy discussion on whether Python is object-oriented or
>> not? What difference does it make?
>
>     Great question... glad you asked...!
>
>> But bad things sometimes have to happen. And that's why things are
>> versioned.
>
>     You didn't read the post... cmp removal is a bad thing, and it does not
> need to,  and should not have to  happen.

I agree that removal of a feature like that is a bad thing. But the
whole point of this thread is the question of whether or not it should
have happened (or rather, whether or not it should be undone).

>    Wrong... one of the reasons for OOP in the first place ( OOA&D ) is to
> ensure that BAD THINGS DO NOT HAPPEN.  Code reuse and stability are key...
> and OOA&D helps to make sure that works.

So it's perfectly acceptable for bad things to happen in a
non-object-oriented library, but as soon as it works with objects, it
has to eschew badness? This does not make sense.

>    You need to read Grady Booch... and study a little OOP design either
> using SmallTalk, or C++, to get an appreciation maybe for what is at stake
> here.

I've been a C++ programmer for nearly twenty years. I think I know a
few things about OOP. Actually, I've done OOP in non-OO languages;
most notably, plain old C. The OS/2 Presentation Manager class
hierarchy (SOM) is primarily implemented in C, for instance. My point
is that "object orientation" is completely separate from
"implementation is separate from interface".

>     You may not have enough knowledge to understand what I'm talking about.
>  Forgive me.

Maybe I don't. Let me check my character sheet...

Skill, Ranks, Ability, Total modifier
Knowledge (Arcana): 19 + 4 = 23
Knowledge (History): 11 + 4 = 15
Knowledge (Nature): 2 + 4 = 6
Knowledge (The Planes): 0

Not sure where Knowledge (OOP) comes in there. Must ask my DM some day.

Seriously though: I've programmed various systems, where the division
of "interface" and "implementation" come in quite different places; my
favorite being networking, where the interface is the comms protocol,
and everything else is implementation. Objects don't come into it.

But this is getting seriously off-topic; none of this connects with
the cmp= parameter.

Chris Angelico

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Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-03-31 01:34 -0500
  Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-03-31 07:51 +0000
    Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-04-01 01:13 -0500
      Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-04-01 17:30 +1100
        Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2011-04-01 00:45 -0700
          Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-04-01 12:59 -0400
          Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-04-01 14:57 -0400
            Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2011-04-01 12:22 -0700
              Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-04-01 22:21 -0400
              Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Antoon Pardon <Antoon.Pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2011-04-04 11:34 +0200
                Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Lie Ryan <lie.1296@gmail.com> - 2011-04-04 23:35 +1000
                Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-04-04 13:26 -0400
                Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-04-04 15:05 -0400
              Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-04-04 13:22 -0400
          Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-04-01 15:37 -0400
            Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2011-04-01 14:37 -0700
              Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-04-02 00:42 +0000
                Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2011-04-01 19:31 -0700
              Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Benjamin Peterson <benjamin@python.org> - 2011-04-02 03:31 +0000
                Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2011-04-01 20:43 -0700
            Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-04-02 10:13 +0000
              Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-04-04 14:10 -0700
                Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-04-05 07:41 +1000
                Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-04-04 15:16 -0700
                Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-04-05 08:36 +1000
                Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-04-05 00:47 +0000
                Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-04-04 17:09 -0500
                Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-04-04 23:25 +0000
                Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-04-04 20:16 -0500
                Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-04-05 00:54 -0400
      Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-04-01 13:06 -0400
        Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2011-04-01 12:28 -0700
        Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-04-01 23:54 -0500
          Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-04-02 16:06 +1100
            Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-04-02 00:17 -0500
              Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-04-02 17:17 +1100
                Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-04-02 03:29 -0500
                Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Brian Quinlan <brian@sweetapp.com> - 2011-04-02 22:14 +1100
                Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-04-03 00:30 -0500
                Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method geremy condra <debatem1@gmail.com> - 2011-04-02 22:46 -0700
                Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-04-03 02:17 -0500
                Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Brian Quinlan <brian@sweetapp.com> - 2011-04-03 16:36 +1000
                Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-04-02 22:14 -0400
                Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-04-03 00:26 -0500
                Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-04-04 01:38 -0400
          Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-04-02 09:39 +0000
            Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-04-03 00:09 -0500
  Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-03-31 11:26 -0400
    Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-04-01 01:44 -0500
      Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-04-01 15:13 -0400
        Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method John Bokma <john@castleamber.com> - 2011-04-01 13:42 -0600
          Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-04-02 00:58 +0000
        Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-04-02 00:07 -0500

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