Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method

From	harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Subject	Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method
References	(5 earlier) <mailman.85.1301677576.2990.python-list@python.org> <y_xlp.24978$tL6.16271@newsfe03.iad> <mailman.119.1301720798.2990.python-list@python.org> <8kylp.4903$yp3.4046@newsfe09.iad> <mailman.121.1301725067.2990.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID	<P7Blp.8987$sP1.1530@newsfe07.iad> (permalink)
Date	2011-04-02 03:29 -0500

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Chris Angelico wrote:
> I've been a C++ programmer for nearly twenty years. I think I know a
> few things about OOP. Actually, I've done OOP in non-OO languages;
> most notably, plain old C. The OS/2 Presentation Manager class
> hierarchy (SOM) is primarily implemented in C, for instance. My point
> is that "object orientation" is completely separate from
> "implementation is separate from interface".

    Thank you for helping me there with your stats...

>
> Not sure where Knowledge (OOP) comes in there. Must ask my DM some day.
>

    Ok, its an honest question.  The answer is the heart of this debate, 
actually. Please be patient and try to hear this...  the bickering on 
this thread about whether the cmp= removal is a bad thing has been 
focused on the *wrong issue*.  The issue is not whether there is a 
use-case. The issue is not whether there is a technical reason for 
justifying the existence of  L.sort(cmp= ).   The issues debated ad 
nauseum here by most folks are missing the real point (the main issue).

    The real issue facing the community in this cmp= debate is whether 
an established, documented, useful, widely *used* advertised class 
interface should be removed (don't miss this) for strictly philosophical 
reasons based on the expectations of the OOP client community in terms 
of trust and accountability (OOA&D) for the established promises of the 
advertised class interfaces of an *advertised* OOP scripting language--- 
er, Python.

    In other words, does the PSF have a responsibility to maintain the 
L.sort(cmp= key= reverse=) interface for strictly *philosophical* 
principle based on established norms for *any* OOP language?  (and) is 
there OOA&D expectation for this principle?

    The rest of the thread is arguing for a *technical* determination 
for inclusion of the cmp= keyword...  I am arguing (on the other hand) 
for a *philosophical* determination for inclusion of the cmp= keyword.


> But this is getting seriously off-topic; none of this connects with
> the cmp= parameter.

Well, we have to agree to disagree on that point... my view is that this 
is right-on-topic. Guido should restore the interface, period. And the 
main point is that this is regardless of technical underpinnings like 
"cruft," performance issues, &etc.

Now, there may be other issues...   CPython to PyPy, for instance, that 
may or may not affect this ... I don't know. That's not my problem. My 
problem is that the  class list(object).sort(cmp= key= reverse=) 
interface will be broken in 3.3+ unless somebody argues well for 
inclusion.  Some folks are arguing for inclusion based on technical 
merit... and that's fine...  I am arguing based on philosophical premise 
and OOA&D OOP expectations from the OOP Python client community.

Please forgive me, if I made you feel insulted,... that was not intended.

Kind regards,
m harris

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Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-03-31 01:34 -0500
  Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-03-31 07:51 +0000
    Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-04-01 01:13 -0500
      Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-04-01 17:30 +1100
        Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2011-04-01 00:45 -0700
          Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-04-01 12:59 -0400
          Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-04-01 14:57 -0400
            Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2011-04-01 12:22 -0700
              Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-04-01 22:21 -0400
              Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Antoon Pardon <Antoon.Pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2011-04-04 11:34 +0200
                Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Lie Ryan <lie.1296@gmail.com> - 2011-04-04 23:35 +1000
                Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-04-04 13:26 -0400
                Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-04-04 15:05 -0400
              Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-04-04 13:22 -0400
          Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-04-01 15:37 -0400
            Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2011-04-01 14:37 -0700
              Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-04-02 00:42 +0000
                Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2011-04-01 19:31 -0700
              Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Benjamin Peterson <benjamin@python.org> - 2011-04-02 03:31 +0000
                Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2011-04-01 20:43 -0700
            Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-04-02 10:13 +0000
              Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-04-04 14:10 -0700
                Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-04-05 07:41 +1000
                Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-04-04 15:16 -0700
                Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-04-05 08:36 +1000
                Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-04-05 00:47 +0000
                Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-04-04 17:09 -0500
                Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-04-04 23:25 +0000
                Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-04-04 20:16 -0500
                Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-04-05 00:54 -0400
      Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-04-01 13:06 -0400
        Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2011-04-01 12:28 -0700
        Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-04-01 23:54 -0500
          Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-04-02 16:06 +1100
            Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-04-02 00:17 -0500
              Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-04-02 17:17 +1100
                Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-04-02 03:29 -0500
                Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Brian Quinlan <brian@sweetapp.com> - 2011-04-02 22:14 +1100
                Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-04-03 00:30 -0500
                Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method geremy condra <debatem1@gmail.com> - 2011-04-02 22:46 -0700
                Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-04-03 02:17 -0500
                Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Brian Quinlan <brian@sweetapp.com> - 2011-04-03 16:36 +1000
                Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-04-02 22:14 -0400
                Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-04-03 00:26 -0500
                Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-04-04 01:38 -0400
          Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-04-02 09:39 +0000
            Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-04-03 00:09 -0500
  Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-03-31 11:26 -0400
    Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-04-01 01:44 -0500
      Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-04-01 15:13 -0400
        Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method John Bokma <john@castleamber.com> - 2011-04-01 13:42 -0600
          Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-04-02 00:58 +0000
        Re: Guido rethinking removal of cmp from sort method harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-04-02 00:07 -0500

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