Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #584549

Re: Annotated version of SRT

Show all headers | View raw

Am 30.04.2022 um 05:51 schrieb JanPB:
> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 11:08:58 PM UTC-7, Thomas Heger wrote:
>> Am 28.04.2022 um 10:45 schrieb JanPB:
>>> On Wednesday, April 27, 2022 at 10:14:03 PM UTC-7, Thomas Heger wrote:
>>>> Am 27.04.2022 um 02:35 schrieb JanPB:
>>>>> On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 1:24:06 PM UTC-7, Thomas Heger wrote:
>>>>>> Am 26.04.2022 um 08:52 schrieb JanPB:
>>>>>>> On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 10:02:19 PM UTC-7, Thomas Heger wrote:
>>>>>>>> Am 25.04.2022 um 21:22 schrieb JanPB:
>>>>>>>>> On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 12:52:14 AM UTC-7, Thomas Heger wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Am 24.04.2022 um 10:52 schrieb JanPB:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> But even if so, x' would still be zero.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, you get x' = 0 for the emitter/receiver because its location
>>>>>>>>>>> by construction of this experimental setup satisfies x = vt at
>>>>>>>>>>> all times t, hence the corresponding x' value is:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> x' = x - vt = 0
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> throughout.
>>>>>>>>>> Here you actually agree, that x'=0 must be true.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> For the *light source*.
>>>>>>>> No, this is wrong because Einstein had a different setting:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [quote]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "From the origin of system k let a ray be emitted at the time τ'along
>>>>>>>> the X-axis to x' and at the time τ_1 be reflected thence to the origin of
>>>>>>>> the coordinates, ..."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [/quote]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The system k was the moving system, hence Einstein wanted a moving
>>>>>>>> emitter and a stationary mirror.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Both the light source and the mirror are stationary in k because that's how
>>>>>>> the (1/2)*(tau_0 +tau_2) = tau_1 criterion has been set up previously (in section 1).
>>>>>> The coordinates in k had small Greek letters as names.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Therefore x' must be a coordinate from system K.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, it's an expression involving the K coordinates. But keep in mind
>>>>> that the following three statements are simultaneously true:
>>>>>
>>>>> (1) x' is an expression involving K coordinates,
>>>>>
>>>>> (2) if x' denotes the values of this expression for the mirror
>>>>> at different times t, then x' is constant and nonzero,
>>>>>
>>>>> (3) the mirror is stationary in k (the lower-case k).
>>>> You should keep in mind, that it is absolutely impossible, that an
>>>> author requires from the readers, that they would marter their brain to
>>>> develop, what actually the author should have written.
>>>
>>> But the author has written all that. I only rewrote it.
>>>
>>>> Einstein himself had to write, which coordinate systems were used and
>>>> for which quantities. These quantities need to be defined properly.
>>>
>>> They are.
>>>
>>>> But in contrast to common standards, we are now discussing the question,
>>>> whether the mirror moves (or not) in system K.
>>>
>>> The mirror is stationary in k. This is obvious from the description as well as
>>> from everything that went on before (e.g. the clock sync definition).
>>>
>>>> This is an information, an author needs to provide.
>>>
>>> It was provided.
>>>
>>>> We are now discussing this question on the basis on other constraints
>>>> like other equations or descriptions in the text.
>>>>
>>>> But I have tried hard and found no possible setting, which violated non
>>>> of these constraints somewhere.
>>>
>>> I've described the setting by paraphrasing he paper slightly to underline
>>> the points we are discussing. There are no violations of anything there.
>> In a scientific paper the author has to tell his story. It is not the
>> duty of the reader to 'fill the blancs'.
>
> Einstein told his story. The reader can fill in the blanks. The blanks are
> present in every science paper (for obvious reasons).
>
> None of it created any problems to the readers.
>
>> But if we actually try to do that (as I did), we find self-contradicting
>> requirements, which cannot be all equally fulfilled.
>
> But that's your problem.

No, not at all.

If an author required impossible actions from the reader, the author 
would disqualify himself.

Selfcontradicting statements would disqualify a paper, because you 
cannot possibly do things, that one statement requires and another forbids.

Such self-contradicting statements are therefore uncurable errors, 
however qualified a reader is.


>> Einstein wrote about an emitter at the zero spot of the moving system k,
>> which sends out a ray, which is reflected by a mirror at the point x'.
>>
>> The only introduction of x' that can be found in the text stems from the
>> equation x' =x - v*t.
>>
>> Now we can assume, that Einstein wanted x' to be in constant distance to
>> the emitter, because otherwise the nect equation
>> (1/2)*(tau_0 +tau_2) = tau_1
>> cannot be fulfilled.
>>
>> But -v*t is obviously negative, while x has (apparently) a fixed value.
>
> Consider any object at rest in the system  k.  Let's say at time  t_0  it's at  x_0
> (according to  K's coordinates).  This means at any time  t  its position
> x  satisfies:
>
>      x = x_0 + v*(t - t_0)
>
> This means:
>
>      x - vt = x_0 - v*t_0
>
> IOW, the combination  "x - vt"  for any object at rest in  k  is *constant*
> (since the RHS is independent of time).

The quantities x_0 and t_0 were not present in Einstein's text. And you 
have no right to introduce, what is not there.

You need to stick to the equation x' =x - v*t, because that was, what 
Einstein wrote.


The problem arises, because 'x' was introduced in this statement:

"To any system of values x, y, z, t, which completely defines the place 
and time of an event in the stationary system..."

Since x is not further specified, x shall represent some arbitrary but 
fixed x-coordinate in system K.

This coordinate is arbitrary but apparently not moving, hence any 
x-coordinate could fulfill the requirements.

Now from this value a quantity v*t is subtracted and at that place we 
find the mirror. That has a coordinate called x'.

Since the emitter is at rest at the zero spot of k, it moves to the 
right, while the mirror moves to the left (the direction of smaller values).

That would double the velocity, instead of compensating movement.

Since movement was excluded by the equation
(1/2)*(tau_0 +tau_2) = tau_1

we have only one remaining possibility: v=0 of k in respect to K

But in this case k would be equal to K and all subsequent considerations 
would become trivial, hence we can also exclude the assumption v=0 
between K and k.

Now we get stuck, because no possibility remains.

Therefore, the text required impossible assumptions, hence must contain 
errors.

What else Einstein wrote became meaningless, because theoretical physics 
does not allow errors.


TH
...

Back to sci.physics.relativity | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar

Thread

Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-26 07:02 +0200
  Re: Annotated version of SRT JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-04-25 23:52 -0700
    Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-26 22:24 +0200
      Re: Annotated version of SRT JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-04-26 17:35 -0700
        Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-27 07:59 +0200
        Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-28 07:14 +0200
          Re: Annotated version of SRT JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-04-28 01:45 -0700
            Re: Annotated version of SRT Rady Konoe <akde@oakoradn.en> - 2022-04-28 09:03 +0000
            Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-29 08:08 +0200
              Re: Annotated version of SRT JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-04-29 20:51 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-04-29 21:03 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-30 07:47 +0200
                Imbecile Thomas Heger perseveres "Dono." <eggy20011951@gmail.com> - 2022-04-30 07:00 -0700
                Re: Imbecile Thomas Heger perseveres Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2022-04-30 14:44 +0000
                Re: Imbecile Thomas Heger perseveres "Dono." <eggy20011951@gmail.com> - 2022-04-30 08:19 -0700
                Re: Imbecile Thomas Heger perseveres Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2022-04-30 15:28 +0000
                Re: Imbecile Thomas Heger perseveres Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-04-30 15:33 +0000
                Re: Imbecile Thomas Heger perseveres Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2022-04-30 17:56 +0000
                Re: Imbecile Thomas Heger perseveres Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-30 20:15 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-04-30 19:02 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-05-01 10:15 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-05-02 00:15 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-05-02 00:40 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-05-03 07:58 +0200
          Re: Annotated version of SRT Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-04-28 16:44 +0000
            Re: Annotated version of SRT Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-04-28 23:15 -0700
              Re: Annotated version of SRT Python <python@example.invalid> - 2022-04-29 14:30 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-04-29 06:45 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2022-04-30 19:50 +0000
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-04-30 21:43 -0700
            Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-29 08:22 +0200
              Re: Annotated version of SRT Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-04-29 12:52 +0000
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-04-29 13:06 +0000
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-04-29 06:47 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-05-01 09:59 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-05-01 12:16 +0000
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-05-02 08:03 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-05-01 23:31 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-05-02 08:56 +0000
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-05-02 02:30 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-05-02 00:18 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-05-04 06:53 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-05-04 01:02 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-05-05 09:02 +0200
                Crank Thomas Heger keeps on lying "Dono." <eggy20011951@gmail.com> - 2022-05-05 06:38 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-05-05 22:17 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-05-05 22:34 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-05-06 08:55 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-05-06 00:24 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-05-06 01:15 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-05-06 01:41 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-05-07 07:19 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-05-07 00:38 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-05-08 08:22 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-05-08 12:33 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-05-10 07:12 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2022-05-06 17:09 +0300
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-05-07 07:32 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2022-05-07 13:53 +0300
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-05-07 05:10 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-05-08 08:33 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-05-08 12:34 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-05-09 07:20 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-05-09 02:24 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-05-09 03:04 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2022-05-09 10:14 +0300
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-05-09 00:25 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-05-02 11:16 +0000
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-05-02 04:44 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-05-02 12:02 +0000
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-05-02 05:11 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-05-03 08:15 +0200

csiph-web