Re: OT: Snowy Hydro

From	Trevor Wilson <trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au>
Newsgroups	aus.electronics
Subject	Re: OT: Snowy Hydro
Date	2017-03-29 16:44 +1100
Message-ID	<ek10aiF5b9cU1@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
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On 28/03/2017 5:19 PM, Rod Speed wrote:
> Trevor Wilson <trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote
>> Rod Speed wrote
>>> Trevor Wilson <trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote
>>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>>> Trevor Wilson <trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote
>>>>>> Rod Speed wrote
>
>>>>>>> IMO the federal govt should be spending whatever it takes to keep
>>>>>>> Hazelwood going, because its right next to brown coal that is
>>>>>>> useless for anything else, and if fools like Trevor don't like
>>>>>>> that, they should go and fuck themselves.
>
>>>>>> Brown coal is the most polluting energy source presently in use
>>>>>> anywhere.
>
>>>>> Who cares ?
>
>>>> Everyone on the planet with a functioning brain.
>
>>> Even sillier than you usually manage.
>
>> Nonetheless, a fact.
>
> Claiming its a fact doesn’t make it a fact.
>
>> Morons can't see a problem. Everyone else can.
>
> How odd that sweet fuck all are actually stupid enough
> to vote for the sort of shit you clowns want to see.

**Not so odd really. However, Hanson's lot are the only party that 
denies anthropogenic global warming is a fact. Hanson's lot are the only 
ones without a climate policy. Labor, Lieberal and the Greens all have 
climate policies.

>
>> You, Barnarby, George Christensen and the others are morons.
>
> Wota stunning line in rational argument you have there, fart.

**I just tell it the way it is.

>
>>>>> What matters is that the brown coal is useless for anything but
>>>>> power generation and so should be used for that.
>
>>>> Brown coal is an exceptionally poor type of coal,
>
>>> Its fine for power generation.
>
>> No, it is not.
>
> Corse it is.

**Nope. It is MUCH poorer than black coal and is very CO2 intensive.

>
>> It is VERY poor.
>
> Irrelevant when its no use for anything else.

**Then it just needs to be left in the ground.

>
> Even the stupid krauts managed to work that out.
>
>> Brown coal, as mined in Victoria releases around 8.4Mj/kg.
>
> Irrelevant when its no use for anything else.
>
>> Black coal is more like 35Mj/kg.
>
> Irrelevant when we can flog that to those who need to buy it.
>
>> Brown coal is a spectacularly poor choice of fuel.
>
> Wrong when we can have the generators right
> next to it and its no use for anything else.

**Those generators are being shut down, because they're old and require 
huge amounts to be spent on them. Additionally, they spew huge amounts 
of CO2.

>
>>>> which produces far more CO2 than almost any other kind of power
>>>> generation
>
>>> Irrelevant when we produce sweet fuck
>>> all of the world's CO2 production.
>
>> That old chestnut.
>
> Corse you never ever manage anything like that yourself, eh ?

**You keep blathering on with your idiotic, Alan Jones arguments. 
EVERYONE will need to reduce CO2 emissions, to save what is left of this 
planet. That includes every Australian. We are not immune to the effects 
of excessive CO2 in the atmosphere. The real question is this: Why do 
YOU think we are?

>
>> Listen very carefully, moron:
>
>> EVERY SINGLE human on the planet will need to make adjustments to deal
>> with CO2 production. That includes every single Australian.
>
> You can repeat that mindless silly shit till the
> cows come home, it stays mindless silly shit.
> Those who already use just hydro obviously don’t.

**Very few people on this planet use only hydro. Of course, those that 
do may not need to make too many adjustments (provided they have 
electric vehicles, of course).

>
>>> Even if we were actually stupid enough to shut down
>>> all fossil fuelled power generation entirely, the effect
>>> on the world temperate wouldn’t even be measurable
>>> given that China alone increases its CO2 production
>>> by more than we do entirely, ever single year.
>
>> If every nation shuts down fossil fuel power generators,
>
> Not going to happen, they aint that stupid, even if you clowns are.

**It has to happen if we are to survive.

>
>> the effect would be substantial.
>
> Irrelevant to what would happen if Haselwood wasn’t closed.
>
> ABSOLUTELY NOTHING MEASURABLE.

**Again: EVERYONE needs to act. Even every Australian.

>
>> Since Australia has enormous reserves of renewable energy, then it
>> makes sense for us to make use of those reserves.
>
> Not when even if we closed all power generation entirely
> and banned all modes of transport entirely would produce
> no measurable effect on climate what so ever.

**Sure it would. A dramatic effect over time.

>
>>>> and, therefore, should not be used.
>
>>> Even sillier than you usually manage.
>
>>>> The bottom line is that the Hazelwood generator was shut down,
>>>> because it is non-viable (uneconomic).
>
>>> Only because we are stupid enough to penalise coal fired
>>> power generation and to require levels of pollution
>>> control that make them unviable economically.
>
>> Pollution is bad.
>
> Not when it blows away from where it is produced it aint.

**Oh, you're one of those. How disturbing.

>
>>> It was perfectly viable economically when
>>> it was built and that hasn’t changed now.
>
>> Not quite.
>
> Fraid so.
>
>> Hazelwood has reached the end of it's effective life-span.
>
> If it was economic in the first place, its even more economic to
> replace the subset of what was built to allow it to continue to be
> used now that the price they get for the electricity is much higher.

**Cite your figures. You make the claims, provide some hard data to back 
your claims. No data = claim rejected.


>
>> Like automobiles, power stations do not last forever.
>
> No one ever said they did. But if it was economic to build
> it in the first place, its even more economic to replace the
> subset of what was built to allow it to continue to be used
> now that the price they get for the electricity is much higher.

**How long will it take to rebuild Hazelwood? How much will it cost? How 
much CO2 will it produce?

Numbers Roddles. Numbers. And none of your dodgy claims. Let's see the 
hard data.

>
>>> And it would cost less than HALF of what
>>> the new snowy hydro changes will cost and
>>> will produce MUCH more power than that.
>
>> The Snowy hydro changes are just a desperate attempt by Trumbull to be
>> seen to do something, other than investing in real renewables.
>
> Even sillier than you usually manage. The Snowy system has
> always been about pumped storage, by far the best way to
> do something about the inevitable intermittency of what
> renewable power generation we have and to allow the coal
> fired power generation to work at maximum efficiency.

**Provided there is sufficient water to maximise the Snowy scheme, yes. 
In case you had failed to realise, Southern Australia is becoming drier, 
thanks to AGW. That said, I have no major issues with maximising the 
Snowy scheme. Trouble is, it will take a MINIMUM of a decade and cost 
three times the figure Trumbull claimed. It's just a throwaway line so 
he could pacify the Greens.

>
>>>>>> Hazelwood must be shut down.
>
>>>>> Even sillier than you usually manage.
>
>>>> So you say.
>
>>> So anyone with even half a clue knows.
>
>> It seems you don't.
>
> Easy to claim.
>
>>>>>> In any case, there is nothing the government can do about it,
>
>>>>> Wrong, as always.
>
>>>> I see.
>
>>> Nope, you never do.
>
>>>> And what, precisely, can the government do?
>
>>> I already told you, fuckwit.
>
>> No, you didn't.
>
> More of your lies, it was still there in the quoting until you
> carefully deleted it, you flagrantly dishonest fuckwit.

**Wrong. I checked. I see no citations from you to prove your insane 
claims.

>
> Keep this shit up and your shit will be flushed where it belongs.
>
>>>> Cite the legal precedents in your answer.
>
>>> The govt is legally free to hand Engie what it would
>>> cost to continue to run Hazelwood and is legally free
>>> to make an offer for Hazelwood if it chooses to too.
>
>> Cite the legal precedents in your answer.
>
> Don’t need any, that has happened before.

**Cite your legal precedents.

>
>>>>>> since it was sold and shut down by a private company.
>
>>>>> But if the govt chose to, it is free to buy it back from them
>>>>> or to hand them the money to allow it to operate again.
>
>>>> You assume that the company wants to sell it.
>
>>> I assume nothing of the sort and the govt is free to nationalise
>>> it and pay compensation for doing that if it wants to anyway.
>
>> Except that no one in their right mind wants Hazelwood to continue.
>
> Irrelevant to what is possible.
>
>> Only pollution-loving, climate deniers like you think it should remain
>> in operation.
>
> Irrelevant to what is possible.
>
>>> And the govt is free to pay Engie to do what needs to be done to
>>> continue to run Hazelwood if it wants to too.
>
>>>> You assume that the government is willing to spend even more money
>>>> to make the plant viable.
>
>>> I assume nothing of the sort. It is obviously legally
>>> possible for the govt to do that if it chooses to.
>
>> And again, provided the government is prepared to pay.
>
> Irrelevant to what is possible.
>
>>>>>> Australia has the capacity to generate huge amounts of clean energy.
>
>>>>> Stupid way to generate electricity for all sorts of reasons.
>
>>>> Name them.
>
>>> Costs too much so no one is prepared to do it without a subsidy.
>
>> Nonsense:
>
> Fact.
>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source
>
> Have fun listing even a single example of a major renewable
> power generation system done in this country without a subsidy.

**Why bother? Coal has been subsidised from day one. They're all 
subsidised one way or another. Even your precious nukes are subsidised 
by every government that uses them.

>
>>> Fucks the environment with all those wind generators.
>
>> There are many other renewable sources available.
>
> Those fuck the environment too.

**No where near as bad as brown coal. Brown coal is really, really bad.

>
>>> Fucks the stability of the grid.
>
>> Geo-thermal (aka: 'Hot rock') technology deals with that.
>
> Pity that no one is silly enough to build it without a subsidy here.

**Again: NO power station gets built without a subsidy. Not one.

>
>> As does Solar/thermal and Solar PV/battery technologies.
>
> Another lie with non synchronous power generation.

**In what way do you imagine it is a lie? Be specific for a change.

>
>> All are cost competitive
>
> How odd that the only people who pay for
> them themselves are those who are off grid.

**And yet, that is untrue.

>
>> and either zero or very low CO2 emission.
>
> Nukes leave them for dead in that regard and don’t have
> a problem with system stabity or intermittency either.

**Sure. Nukes are great, except for:

* The fact that one would take 20 years to become operational, IF a 
decision to build was made today.
* No one has figured out what to do with the waste. The US has managed 
to secure 2 years' worth of it's nuclear waste. Only 48 years' worth to 
go. Even then, who will guarantee the security of the waste for the next 
20 million years or so? Will you?
* The taxpayer will have to stump up the insurance costs if something 
goes wrong. No insurance company on the planet will insure a nuke. That 
should tell you something.
* There's less than 100 years' of cheap uranium left. We've got about 5 
BILLION years of Sunlight left. And that's free and pollution free.

>
>> Best of all, for such a dry place like Australia, minimal to zero
>> water is consumed.
>
> That’s a lie with geothermal and hydro.

**Obviously, though geothermal uses a lot less than coal or nukes.

>
>>> Not feasible to do it where the power is mostly used.
>
>> You need to learn (a lot) more before you discuss these things with
>> the adults.
>
> You never could bullshit your way out of a wet paper bag.

**LOL.

>
>>>>>> THAT is what the government needs to be investing in. Not coal.
>
>>>>> You are just plain wrong, as always.
>
>>>> So you keep saying. Let's hear your moronic responses, then we can
>>>> all decide who the idiot really is.
>
>>> We've already decided its fools like you.
>
>> Sorry Roddles, it's just you.
>
> Is that right ?

**You, Barnaby, George and the other morons.


   Not even a single other person
> who has ever said that its much better to continue
> with coal fired power generation that piss our
> money against the wall on renewables eh ?

**Only those with an IQ that barely reaches double digits. Someone much 
like you, in fact.


>
> Keep this shit up and your shit and lies and desperate
> attempt at childish insults will be flushed where it belongs.

**Of course. I expect nothing less from you. No citations, no proof and 
scurry away when asked to provide proof. Typical.


>
>> You and your climate change denier buddies are a rapidly shrinking
>> species.
>
> Must be why not even a double digit percentage of the
> voters are actually stupid enough to vote for the clown
> who want nothing but renewable power generation.

**Wrong:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-11-04/majority-of-australians-believe-in-climate-change-csiro-report/6909940


>
>>> That’s why you lot don’t even get double digit percentages of
>>> voters voting for the mindless silly shit fools like you want to see.
>
>> And how many vote for those climate change denying morons in the
>> Hanson party? 5%?
>
> Who cares ?  They are as completely irrelevant as your fuckwits.

**They're the only bunch who don't accept AGW theory and the only bunch 
who don't want a CO2 limit for Australia. Labor, Lieberal and the Greens 
all want CO2 limits. Only Hanson's bunch of clowns don't accept any of 
it. IOW: You and Hanson's bunch of misfits, liars and criminals are a 
good fit for you. Happy voting.


-- 
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

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Thread

OT: Snowy Hydro Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-03-16 15:12 +1100
  Re: OT: Snowy Hydro Trevor Wilson <trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> - 2017-03-16 16:39 +1100
    Re: OT: Snowy Hydro Chris <c@b.a> - 2017-03-17 14:33 +1100
      Re: OT: Snowy Hydro Trevor Wilson <trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> - 2017-03-17 20:29 +1100
        Re: OT: Snowy Hydro F Murtz <haggisz@hotmail.com> - 2017-03-17 21:20 +1100
          Re: OT: Snowy Hydro Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-03-17 04:12 -0700
          Re: OT: Snowy Hydro Trevor Wilson <trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> - 2017-03-17 23:12 +1100
            Re: OT: Snowy Hydro keithr0 <user@account.invalid> - 2017-03-19 22:00 +1000
              Re: OT: Snowy Hydro Trevor Wilson <trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> - 2017-03-20 08:18 +1100
                Re: OT: Snowy Hydro Trevor Wilson <trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> - 2017-03-20 08:53 +1100
                Re: OT: Snowy Hydro keithr0 <user@account.invalid> - 2017-03-20 20:47 +1000
              Re: OT: Snowy Hydro Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2017-03-21 16:47 +1100
                Re: OT: Snowy Hydro "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2017-03-27 19:41 +1100
                Re: OT: Snowy Hydro Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au> - 2017-03-28 00:02 +1100
                Re: OT: Snowy Hydro "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2017-03-28 03:30 +1100
                Re: OT: Snowy Hydro keithr0 <user@account.invalid> - 2017-03-28 15:43 +1000
                Re: OT: Snowy Hydro "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2017-03-28 17:24 +1100
                Re: OT: Snowy Hydro keithr0 <user@account.invalid> - 2017-03-28 22:09 +1000
                Re: OT: Snowy Hydro Trevor Wilson <trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> - 2017-03-28 08:27 +1100
                Re: OT: Snowy Hydro "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2017-03-28 11:06 +1100
                Re: OT: Snowy Hydro Trevor Wilson <trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> - 2017-03-28 11:21 +1100
                Re: OT: Snowy Hydro "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2017-03-28 13:28 +1100
                Re: OT: Snowy Hydro Trevor Wilson <trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> - 2017-03-28 15:22 +1100
                Re: OT: Snowy Hydro "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2017-03-28 17:19 +1100
                Re: OT: Snowy Hydro Lucifer Morningstar <Barry@saymyname.com> - 2017-03-28 17:28 +1100
                Re: OT: Snowy Hydro Trevor Wilson <trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> - 2017-03-29 16:44 +1100
                Re: OT: Snowy Hydro "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2017-03-29 20:16 +1100
                Re: OT: Snowy Hydro Chris Jones <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> - 2017-03-28 22:06 +1100
                Re: OT: Snowy Hydro "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2017-03-29 05:20 +1100
                Re: OT: Snowy Hydro Trevor Wilson <trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> - 2017-03-29 06:06 +1100
                Re: OT: Snowy Hydro "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2017-03-29 09:34 +1100
                Re: OT: Snowy Hydro keithr0 <user@account.invalid> - 2017-03-29 22:00 +1000
                Re: OT: Snowy Hydro keithr0 <user@account.invalid> - 2017-03-28 22:37 +1000
                Re: OT: Snowy Hydro "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2017-03-29 05:21 +1100
                Re: OT: Snowy Hydro Trevor Wilson <trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> - 2017-03-29 06:07 +1100
                Re: OT: Snowy Hydro "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2017-03-29 09:35 +1100
                Re: OT: Snowy Hydro Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2017-03-28 19:21 +0000
                Re: OT: Snowy Hydro "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2017-03-29 09:37 +1100
                Re: OT: Snowy Hydro Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2017-03-29 04:43 +0000
                Re: OT: Snowy Hydro "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2017-03-29 19:21 +1100
                Re: OT: Snowy Hydro keithr0 <user@account.invalid> - 2017-03-29 21:52 +1000
                Re: OT: Snowy Hydro "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2017-03-30 03:14 +1100
                Re: OT: Snowy Hydro "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2017-03-29 10:53 +1100
                Re: OT: Snowy Hydro keithr0 <user@account.invalid> - 2017-03-29 21:53 +1000
                Re: OT: Snowy Hydro F Murtz <haggisz@hotmail.com> - 2017-03-29 22:48 +1000
                Re: OT: Snowy Hydro "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2017-03-30 03:17 +1100
                Re: OT: Snowy Hydro keithr0 <user@account.invalid> - 2017-03-31 20:01 +1000
                Re: OT: Snowy Hydro "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2017-04-01 05:03 +1100
                Re: OT: Snowy Hydro keithr0 <user@account.invalid> - 2017-04-01 20:01 +1000
                Re: OT: Snowy Hydro "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2017-04-02 03:01 +1000
                Re: OT: Snowy Hydro keithr0 <user@account.invalid> - 2017-04-02 14:55 +1000
                Re: OT: Snowy Hydro "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2017-04-02 16:06 +1000
                Re: OT: Snowy Hydro Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2017-03-28 14:53 +1100
                Re: OT: Snowy Hydro "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2017-03-28 16:44 +1100
                Re: OT: Snowy Hydro Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au> - 2017-03-28 18:42 +1100
  Re: OT: Snowy Hydro Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-03-16 00:07 -0700
    Re: OT: Snowy Hydro Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-03-16 00:51 -0700
    Re: OT: Snowy Hydro Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-03-16 19:33 +1100
      Re: OT: Snowy Hydro Trevor Wilson <trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> - 2017-03-16 19:40 +1100
        Re: OT: Snowy Hydro Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-03-16 19:55 +1100
          Re: OT: Snowy Hydro Adrian Jansen <adrian@qq.vv.net> - 2017-03-17 07:38 +1000
        Re: OT: Snowy Hydro keithr0 <user@account.invalid> - 2017-03-16 22:12 +1000
      Re: OT: Snowy Hydro Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2017-03-16 10:04 +0000
      Re: OT: Snowy Hydro Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-03-16 15:28 -0700
        Re: OT: Snowy Hydro Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-03-17 10:39 +1100
          Re: OT: Snowy Hydro Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-03-16 16:54 -0700
            Re: OT: Snowy Hydro Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-03-17 11:06 +1100
              Re: OT: Snowy Hydro Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-03-16 17:24 -0700
                Re: OT: Snowy Hydro Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-03-17 12:58 +1100
          Re: OT: Snowy Hydro Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-03-16 22:24 +1100
            Re: OT: Snowy Hydro Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-03-17 14:45 +1100
              Re: OT: Snowy Hydro Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-03-16 22:42 +1100
    Re: OT: Snowy Hydro keithr0 <user@account.invalid> - 2017-03-16 22:17 +1000
      Re: OT: Snowy Hydro Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-03-16 22:39 +1100

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