Groups > linux.debian.devel > #119438

Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward

From	Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org>
Newsgroups	linux.debian.devel
Subject	Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward
Date	2025-11-03 23:20 +0100
Message-ID	<LNb45-afGY-3@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
References	<LM4el-9tsu-5@gated-at.bofh.it> <LMF4e-9TEw-11@gated-at.bofh.it>
Organization	linux.* mail to news gateway

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On Sun, Nov 02, 2025 at 01:08:06PM +0100, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
>...
> I think that shouldn't be on one maintainers decision alone.
>...

In addition to that, discussion of relevant topics that would be part of 
any normal decision process is also missing.

Like people tend to forget about [1].
Has the Security team committed to change that in forky?
Has the Archive Operations Team committed to fixing their part of that?
Is all tooling automatic enough that handling 1k binNMUs per
architecture as part of a DSA or point release wouldn't cause problems?
Is anyone working on different binNMU version numbering in stable releases?

Status quo is that sing Rust would reduce security support for apt.

sqv (used by apt in trixie) is already affected by this.

It has been known and discussed for a decade that we are not setup for 
security support of static-only ecosystems, and I do not have the 
impression that the proponents of more Rust in Debian care about
security.

Part of the discussion in this thread is based on the one positive
aspect of that email:

> On 17764 March 1977, Julian Andres Klode wrote:
> >...
> > If you maintain a port without a working Rust toolchain,
> > please ensure it has one within the next 6 months, or
> > sunset the port.
> >...

This is a commitment by the maintainer that apt will only require
"a"/"one" working Rust toolchain, not (directly or indirectly) depend on
some specific toolchain - and people working on the ports in question
are now discussing and working based on that commitment.

I hope the toxic behaviour of the maintainer won't continue with
backtracking on that commitment.

Is there a technical reason why an apt-legacy package using the trixie
version of apt for a few more years would not be a short-term option for
ports that need more than 6 months for getting a working gccrs?
That would be simple to do and even comes with several years of security
support, and the apt maintainer should be able to explain and discuss
at what point it might run into compatibility issues.

Starting to use rust crates at some point would bring the hellscape of 
semantic versioning. I have the impression that incompatible API breaks
are at least an order of magnitude more frequent in the Rust ecosystem
than in the C/C++ ecosystem, and this would be a problem for core native 
Debian code with a bus factor of 1.

There are likely more topics that should be discussed before
a decision to make the first core component of Debian use Rust.

cu
Adrian

[1] https://www.debian.org/releases/trixie/release-notes/issues.html#go-and-rust-based-packages
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Thread

Hard Rust requirements from May onward Julian Andres Klode <jak@debian.org> - 2025-10-31 21:50 +0100
  Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward John Paul Adrian Glaubitz <glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de> - 2025-10-31 22:40 +0100
    Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2025-11-01 04:20 +0100
      Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Geert Stappers <stappers@stappers.nl> - 2025-11-01 08:40 +0100
        Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Bjørn Mork <bjorn@mork.no> - 2025-11-01 13:40 +0100
          Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-11-01 14:40 +0100
            Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-11-01 15:40 +0100
              Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-11-01 20:40 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Philipp Kern <pkern@debian.org> - 2025-11-01 21:10 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2025-11-02 00:20 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-11-02 10:30 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-11-02 10:40 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Philipp Kern <pkern@debian.org> - 2025-11-09 21:40 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-11-09 23:00 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Philipp Kern <phil@philkern.de> - 2025-11-09 23:30 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-11-10 11:40 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-11-10 12:20 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2025-11-10 13:40 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2025-11-10 04:10 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-11-10 12:00 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2025-11-10 15:00 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward David Kalnischkies <david@kalnischkies.de> - 2025-11-10 17:50 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-11-10 20:20 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-11-10 20:30 +0100
                Re: purpose of InRelease in apt [was: non-GPG signatures; was: Rust  requirements] Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2025-11-10 17:10 +0100
                Re: purpose of InRelease in apt [was: non-GPG signatures; was: Rust  requirements] Stefano Rivera <stefanor@debian.org> - 2025-11-13 13:20 +0100
                Re: purpose of InRelease in apt [was: non-GPG signatures; was: Rust  requirements] Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-11-13 18:20 +0100
          Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2025-11-01 17:50 +0100
          Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Christoph Biedl <debian.axhn@manchmal.in-ulm.de> - 2025-11-05 09:10 +0100
        Re: Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward John Paul Adrian Glaubitz <glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de> - 2025-11-02 11:20 +0100
    Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Antoni Boucher <bouanto@zoho.com> - 2025-11-01 16:30 +0100
      Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward John Paul Adrian Glaubitz <glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de> - 2025-11-02 11:50 +0100
        Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Antoni Boucher <bouanto@zoho.com> - 2025-11-02 16:30 +0100
  Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Julian Andres Klode <jak@debian.org> - 2025-10-31 22:50 +0100
  Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Paul Tagliamonte <paultag@debian.org> - 2025-11-01 15:20 +0100
    Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Paul Tagliamonte <paultag@debian.org> - 2025-11-01 15:20 +0100
    Re: Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward John Paul Adrian Glaubitz <glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de> - 2025-11-02 11:30 +0100
    Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Bill Allombert <ballombe@debian.org> - 2025-11-02 15:40 +0100
  Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Joerg Jaspert <joerg@debian.org> - 2025-11-02 13:10 +0100
    Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Richard Lewis <richard.lewis.debian@googlemail.com> - 2025-11-02 16:20 +0100
      Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2025-11-02 18:10 +0100
    Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Julian Andres Klode <jak@debian.org> - 2025-11-02 17:30 +0100
      Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Joerg Jaspert <joerg@debian.org> - 2025-11-02 17:40 +0100
    Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2025-11-03 23:20 +0100
      Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Ansgar 🙀 <ansgar@debian.org> - 2025-11-04 07:30 +0100
        Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Mike Hommey <mh@glandium.org> - 2025-11-04 08:10 +0100
        Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2025-11-04 11:50 +0100
          Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2025-11-04 12:10 +0100
            Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2025-11-04 13:30 +0100
              Vendoring Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2025-11-04 13:50 +0100
          Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2025-11-04 13:20 +0100
            Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2025-11-04 13:30 +0100
            Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2025-11-04 16:00 +0100
              Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2025-11-04 16:50 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2025-11-04 19:40 +0100
        Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Stephan Verbücheln <verbuecheln@posteo.de> - 2025-11-04 15:30 +0100
          Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Fabian Grünbichler <debian@fabian.gruenbichler.email> - 2025-11-04 18:40 +0100
      Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Fabian Grünbichler <debian@fabian.gruenbichler.email> - 2025-11-04 18:30 +0100
        Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Sebastian Ramacher <sramacher@debian.org> - 2025-11-04 19:10 +0100
          Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Fabian Grünbichler <debian@fabian.gruenbichler.email> - 2025-11-04 19:40 +0100
        Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2025-11-04 20:10 +0100
          Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2025-11-04 21:50 +0100
          Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Fabian Grünbichler <debian@fabian.gruenbichler.email> - 2025-11-05 07:50 +0100
            Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2025-11-05 12:10 +0100
        Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2025-11-05 18:40 +0100
        Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Philipp Kern <pkern@debian.org> - 2025-11-06 22:10 +0100
    Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name> - 2025-11-05 16:00 +0100
  Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward David Kalnischkies <david@kalnischkies.de> - 2025-11-03 13:40 +0100
    apt-ftparchive alternatives (was: Hard Rust requirements from May  onward) Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-11-03 19:00 +0100
      Re: apt-ftparchive alternatives (was: Hard Rust requirements from  May onward) nick black <dankamongmen@gmail.com> - 2025-11-03 19:50 +0100
        Re: apt-ftparchive alternatives (was: Hard Rust requirements from  May onward) Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-11-03 20:00 +0100
          Re: apt-ftparchive alternatives (was: Hard Rust requirements from  May onward) Peter Pentchev <roam@ringlet.net> - 2025-11-03 21:00 +0100
          Re: apt-ftparchive alternatives Richard Lewis <richard.lewis.debian@googlemail.com> - 2025-11-15 14:00 +0100
      Re: apt-ftparchive alternatives (was: Hard Rust requirements from  May onward) David Kalnischkies <david@kalnischkies.de> - 2025-11-05 16:10 +0100
        Re: apt-ftparchive alternatives Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-11-06 22:20 +0100
          Re: apt-ftparchive alternatives David Kalnischkies <david@kalnischkies.de> - 2025-11-09 17:00 +0100
            Re: apt-ftparchive alternatives Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-11-09 21:50 +0100
              Re: apt-ftparchive alternatives David Kalnischkies <david@kalnischkies.de> - 2025-11-10 14:00 +0100

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