Groups > linux.debian.devel > #119408

Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward

From	Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org>
Newsgroups	linux.debian.devel
Subject	Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward
Date	2025-11-01 17:50 +0100
Message-ID	<LMmXD-9HiN-23@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
References	<LM4el-9tsu-5@gated-at.bofh.it> <LM50J-9u2p-13@gated-at.bofh.it> <LMajL-9yoU-1@gated-at.bofh.it> <LMenn-9B8H-1@gated-at.bofh.it> <LMj3H-9EEC-9@gated-at.bofh.it>
Organization	The Eyrie

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Bjørn Mork <bjorn@mork.no> writes:

> We know what we have.  We also know that a "memory safe language" does
> not prevent bugs. Neither does a "stronger approach to unit
> testing".

Of course they do. Both of those techniques absolutely prevent bugs.

They don't prevent *all* bugs, because no possible technique prevents all
bugs. But both of those techniques are extremely effective at preventing
large classes of bugs.

> Rewriting code means adding new bugs, whether or not the tools catch
> some of them.

Yes. But if the tools are sufficiently better, it also means removing a
whole lot of bugs. The primary maintainer of the software is often in a
good position to know what the balance is likely to look like.

A new language dependency comes with some significant costs, and I
understand why people don't like those costs. Reasonable people can most
certainly disagree about the path forward.

But saying that adopting better tools necessarily means introducing more
bugs than it fixes is just silly. It's a context-dependent decision and
there are numerous examples of the opposite, particularly if the new tools
are used to rewrite a critical portion of the software that is known to be
flawed and has previously been a source of problems.

> BTW, reaching for "modern" means that you will never succeed.

Correct. Apart from trivial cases, software is never finished. "Success"
in that sense is not something that is possible; there will always be
something else to fix.

-- 
Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org)              <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

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Hard Rust requirements from May onward Julian Andres Klode <jak@debian.org> - 2025-10-31 21:50 +0100
  Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward John Paul Adrian Glaubitz <glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de> - 2025-10-31 22:40 +0100
    Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2025-11-01 04:20 +0100
      Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Geert Stappers <stappers@stappers.nl> - 2025-11-01 08:40 +0100
        Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Bjørn Mork <bjorn@mork.no> - 2025-11-01 13:40 +0100
          Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-11-01 14:40 +0100
            Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-11-01 15:40 +0100
              Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-11-01 20:40 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Philipp Kern <pkern@debian.org> - 2025-11-01 21:10 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2025-11-02 00:20 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-11-02 10:30 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-11-02 10:40 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Philipp Kern <pkern@debian.org> - 2025-11-09 21:40 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-11-09 23:00 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Philipp Kern <phil@philkern.de> - 2025-11-09 23:30 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-11-10 11:40 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-11-10 12:20 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2025-11-10 13:40 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2025-11-10 04:10 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-11-10 12:00 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2025-11-10 15:00 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward David Kalnischkies <david@kalnischkies.de> - 2025-11-10 17:50 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-11-10 20:20 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-11-10 20:30 +0100
                Re: purpose of InRelease in apt [was: non-GPG signatures; was: Rust  requirements] Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2025-11-10 17:10 +0100
                Re: purpose of InRelease in apt [was: non-GPG signatures; was: Rust  requirements] Stefano Rivera <stefanor@debian.org> - 2025-11-13 13:20 +0100
                Re: purpose of InRelease in apt [was: non-GPG signatures; was: Rust  requirements] Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-11-13 18:20 +0100
          Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2025-11-01 17:50 +0100
          Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Christoph Biedl <debian.axhn@manchmal.in-ulm.de> - 2025-11-05 09:10 +0100
        Re: Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward John Paul Adrian Glaubitz <glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de> - 2025-11-02 11:20 +0100
    Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Antoni Boucher <bouanto@zoho.com> - 2025-11-01 16:30 +0100
      Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward John Paul Adrian Glaubitz <glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de> - 2025-11-02 11:50 +0100
        Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Antoni Boucher <bouanto@zoho.com> - 2025-11-02 16:30 +0100
  Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Julian Andres Klode <jak@debian.org> - 2025-10-31 22:50 +0100
  Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Paul Tagliamonte <paultag@debian.org> - 2025-11-01 15:20 +0100
    Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Paul Tagliamonte <paultag@debian.org> - 2025-11-01 15:20 +0100
    Re: Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward John Paul Adrian Glaubitz <glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de> - 2025-11-02 11:30 +0100
    Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Bill Allombert <ballombe@debian.org> - 2025-11-02 15:40 +0100
  Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Joerg Jaspert <joerg@debian.org> - 2025-11-02 13:10 +0100
    Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Richard Lewis <richard.lewis.debian@googlemail.com> - 2025-11-02 16:20 +0100
      Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2025-11-02 18:10 +0100
    Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Julian Andres Klode <jak@debian.org> - 2025-11-02 17:30 +0100
      Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Joerg Jaspert <joerg@debian.org> - 2025-11-02 17:40 +0100
    Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2025-11-03 23:20 +0100
      Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Ansgar 🙀 <ansgar@debian.org> - 2025-11-04 07:30 +0100
        Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Mike Hommey <mh@glandium.org> - 2025-11-04 08:10 +0100
        Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2025-11-04 11:50 +0100
          Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2025-11-04 12:10 +0100
            Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2025-11-04 13:30 +0100
              Vendoring Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2025-11-04 13:50 +0100
          Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2025-11-04 13:20 +0100
            Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2025-11-04 13:30 +0100
            Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2025-11-04 16:00 +0100
              Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2025-11-04 16:50 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2025-11-04 19:40 +0100
        Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Stephan Verbücheln <verbuecheln@posteo.de> - 2025-11-04 15:30 +0100
          Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Fabian Grünbichler <debian@fabian.gruenbichler.email> - 2025-11-04 18:40 +0100
      Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Fabian Grünbichler <debian@fabian.gruenbichler.email> - 2025-11-04 18:30 +0100
        Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Sebastian Ramacher <sramacher@debian.org> - 2025-11-04 19:10 +0100
          Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Fabian Grünbichler <debian@fabian.gruenbichler.email> - 2025-11-04 19:40 +0100
        Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2025-11-04 20:10 +0100
          Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2025-11-04 21:50 +0100
          Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Fabian Grünbichler <debian@fabian.gruenbichler.email> - 2025-11-05 07:50 +0100
            Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2025-11-05 12:10 +0100
        Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2025-11-05 18:40 +0100
        Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Philipp Kern <pkern@debian.org> - 2025-11-06 22:10 +0100
    Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name> - 2025-11-05 16:00 +0100
  Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward David Kalnischkies <david@kalnischkies.de> - 2025-11-03 13:40 +0100
    apt-ftparchive alternatives (was: Hard Rust requirements from May  onward) Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-11-03 19:00 +0100
      Re: apt-ftparchive alternatives (was: Hard Rust requirements from  May onward) nick black <dankamongmen@gmail.com> - 2025-11-03 19:50 +0100
        Re: apt-ftparchive alternatives (was: Hard Rust requirements from  May onward) Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-11-03 20:00 +0100
          Re: apt-ftparchive alternatives (was: Hard Rust requirements from  May onward) Peter Pentchev <roam@ringlet.net> - 2025-11-03 21:00 +0100
          Re: apt-ftparchive alternatives Richard Lewis <richard.lewis.debian@googlemail.com> - 2025-11-15 14:00 +0100
      Re: apt-ftparchive alternatives (was: Hard Rust requirements from  May onward) David Kalnischkies <david@kalnischkies.de> - 2025-11-05 16:10 +0100
        Re: apt-ftparchive alternatives Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-11-06 22:20 +0100
          Re: apt-ftparchive alternatives David Kalnischkies <david@kalnischkies.de> - 2025-11-09 17:00 +0100
            Re: apt-ftparchive alternatives Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-11-09 21:50 +0100
              Re: apt-ftparchive alternatives David Kalnischkies <david@kalnischkies.de> - 2025-11-10 14:00 +0100

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