Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward

From	Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org>
Newsgroups	linux.debian.devel
Subject	Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward
Date	2025-11-10 11:40 +0100
Message-ID	<LPxtv-bSTy-5@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
References	(8 earlier) <LMq5b-9JG6-1@gated-at.bofh.it> <LMCJ3-9S05-3@gated-at.bofh.it> <LPkmC-bJVj-13@gated-at.bofh.it> <LPlC2-bKHO-13@gated-at.bofh.it> <LPm53-bLaH-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
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Philipp Kern <phil@philkern.de> writes:

> On 11/9/25 10:51 PM, Simon Josefsson wrote:
>> Philipp Kern <pkern@debian.org> writes:
>>> On 11/2/25 10:32 AM, Simon Josefsson wrote:
>>>> Philipp Kern <pkern@debian.org> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> In trying to retrofit this I also ran into the classic "and now I have
>>>>> an additional file to InRelease to provide the inclusion proof"
>>>>> problem.
>>>> What do you think about putting all signatures in the InRelease
>>>> file?
>>>> The content to sign would be the same as the text in the PGP-armored
>>>> InRelease file, which (modulo the long-standing final newline
>>>> misbehaviour) is the same as the content of the Release file.
>>>
>>> Wouldn't that break existing consumption of the file by apt and we
>>> would need a new one? Or does apt ignore bytes after the signature?
>> Current apt frowns upon such a file, but presumably that could be
>> fixed
>> in forky.  I suppose forky could still rely on PGP by default, but could
>> support Sigstore/Sigsum/SSH/minisign/signify/whatever in addition to
>> PGP, if people turn a knob.
>
> I'm not sure if breaking backwards compatibility in this way is a
> winning strategy.

Right, but one would have to carefully design and test all of this to
know what backwards compatibility is important and which of it we can
handle.

Do we promise that debian bookworm must be able to read InRelease files
from forky?

Couldn't migration happen by implementing support for
Sigsum/Sigstore/etc-protected InRelease fiels in forky and then
back-port to apt in trixie-updates (or a stable update release)?

That approach may be seen as aggressive.  If it is possible to design a
solution that feels more "opt-in", and doesn't touch anything that we
already do, maybe it will be easier to convince people about its safety
from a more social or process point of view.  Even if that technical
solution ends up being more complex and have some disadvantage compared
to re-using the existing InRelease file.  I think we should still have
all alternatives on the table to understand what we dismiss though.

While Sigstore may look more production ready on the surface, from a
tool and deployment perspective I think Sigsum is an easier project to
start with.  That's what I'm using for my software releases for about a
year.  I think the main conflict between them is when thinking about
default choices and what that means for availability.  Personally I
would prefer a conservative approach for my laptop and require both
Sigstore and Sigsum protection, at the cost of not upgrading software if
one of the logs are down, but that trade-off is probably not universal.
Or maybe it would be easier for Debian to switch to Sigstore && Sigsum
as a new default, rather than picking sides and just chose one of them.

Realistically, though, I suspect we aren't likely to be able to migrate
to anything but opt-in for Sigstore+Sigsum protection of forky.  I would
be happy if even opt-in approaches would work, my attempts to add
support for Sigstore+Sigsum in trixie with the 'apt-verify' package was
blocked.

/Simon

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Hard Rust requirements from May onward Julian Andres Klode <jak@debian.org> - 2025-10-31 21:50 +0100
  Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward John Paul Adrian Glaubitz <glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de> - 2025-10-31 22:40 +0100
    Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2025-11-01 04:20 +0100
      Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Geert Stappers <stappers@stappers.nl> - 2025-11-01 08:40 +0100
        Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Bjørn Mork <bjorn@mork.no> - 2025-11-01 13:40 +0100
          Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-11-01 14:40 +0100
            Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-11-01 15:40 +0100
              Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-11-01 20:40 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Philipp Kern <pkern@debian.org> - 2025-11-01 21:10 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2025-11-02 00:20 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-11-02 10:30 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-11-02 10:40 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Philipp Kern <pkern@debian.org> - 2025-11-09 21:40 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-11-09 23:00 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Philipp Kern <phil@philkern.de> - 2025-11-09 23:30 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-11-10 11:40 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-11-10 12:20 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2025-11-10 13:40 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2025-11-10 04:10 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-11-10 12:00 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2025-11-10 15:00 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward David Kalnischkies <david@kalnischkies.de> - 2025-11-10 17:50 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-11-10 20:20 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-11-10 20:30 +0100
                Re: purpose of InRelease in apt [was: non-GPG signatures; was: Rust  requirements] Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2025-11-10 17:10 +0100
                Re: purpose of InRelease in apt [was: non-GPG signatures; was: Rust  requirements] Stefano Rivera <stefanor@debian.org> - 2025-11-13 13:20 +0100
                Re: purpose of InRelease in apt [was: non-GPG signatures; was: Rust  requirements] Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-11-13 18:20 +0100
          Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2025-11-01 17:50 +0100
          Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Christoph Biedl <debian.axhn@manchmal.in-ulm.de> - 2025-11-05 09:10 +0100
        Re: Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward John Paul Adrian Glaubitz <glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de> - 2025-11-02 11:20 +0100
    Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Antoni Boucher <bouanto@zoho.com> - 2025-11-01 16:30 +0100
      Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward John Paul Adrian Glaubitz <glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de> - 2025-11-02 11:50 +0100
        Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Antoni Boucher <bouanto@zoho.com> - 2025-11-02 16:30 +0100
  Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Julian Andres Klode <jak@debian.org> - 2025-10-31 22:50 +0100
  Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Paul Tagliamonte <paultag@debian.org> - 2025-11-01 15:20 +0100
    Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Paul Tagliamonte <paultag@debian.org> - 2025-11-01 15:20 +0100
    Re: Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward John Paul Adrian Glaubitz <glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de> - 2025-11-02 11:30 +0100
    Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Bill Allombert <ballombe@debian.org> - 2025-11-02 15:40 +0100
  Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Joerg Jaspert <joerg@debian.org> - 2025-11-02 13:10 +0100
    Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Richard Lewis <richard.lewis.debian@googlemail.com> - 2025-11-02 16:20 +0100
      Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2025-11-02 18:10 +0100
    Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Julian Andres Klode <jak@debian.org> - 2025-11-02 17:30 +0100
      Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Joerg Jaspert <joerg@debian.org> - 2025-11-02 17:40 +0100
    Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2025-11-03 23:20 +0100
      Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Ansgar 🙀 <ansgar@debian.org> - 2025-11-04 07:30 +0100
        Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Mike Hommey <mh@glandium.org> - 2025-11-04 08:10 +0100
        Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2025-11-04 11:50 +0100
          Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2025-11-04 12:10 +0100
            Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2025-11-04 13:30 +0100
              Vendoring Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2025-11-04 13:50 +0100
          Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2025-11-04 13:20 +0100
            Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2025-11-04 13:30 +0100
            Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2025-11-04 16:00 +0100
              Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2025-11-04 16:50 +0100
                Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2025-11-04 19:40 +0100
        Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Stephan Verbücheln <verbuecheln@posteo.de> - 2025-11-04 15:30 +0100
          Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Fabian Grünbichler <debian@fabian.gruenbichler.email> - 2025-11-04 18:40 +0100
      Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Fabian Grünbichler <debian@fabian.gruenbichler.email> - 2025-11-04 18:30 +0100
        Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Sebastian Ramacher <sramacher@debian.org> - 2025-11-04 19:10 +0100
          Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Fabian Grünbichler <debian@fabian.gruenbichler.email> - 2025-11-04 19:40 +0100
        Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2025-11-04 20:10 +0100
          Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2025-11-04 21:50 +0100
          Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Fabian Grünbichler <debian@fabian.gruenbichler.email> - 2025-11-05 07:50 +0100
            Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2025-11-05 12:10 +0100
        Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2025-11-05 18:40 +0100
        Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Philipp Kern <pkern@debian.org> - 2025-11-06 22:10 +0100
    Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name> - 2025-11-05 16:00 +0100
  Re: Hard Rust requirements from May onward David Kalnischkies <david@kalnischkies.de> - 2025-11-03 13:40 +0100
    apt-ftparchive alternatives (was: Hard Rust requirements from May  onward) Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-11-03 19:00 +0100
      Re: apt-ftparchive alternatives (was: Hard Rust requirements from  May onward) nick black <dankamongmen@gmail.com> - 2025-11-03 19:50 +0100
        Re: apt-ftparchive alternatives (was: Hard Rust requirements from  May onward) Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-11-03 20:00 +0100
          Re: apt-ftparchive alternatives (was: Hard Rust requirements from  May onward) Peter Pentchev <roam@ringlet.net> - 2025-11-03 21:00 +0100
          Re: apt-ftparchive alternatives Richard Lewis <richard.lewis.debian@googlemail.com> - 2025-11-15 14:00 +0100
      Re: apt-ftparchive alternatives (was: Hard Rust requirements from  May onward) David Kalnischkies <david@kalnischkies.de> - 2025-11-05 16:10 +0100
        Re: apt-ftparchive alternatives Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-11-06 22:20 +0100
          Re: apt-ftparchive alternatives David Kalnischkies <david@kalnischkies.de> - 2025-11-09 17:00 +0100
            Re: apt-ftparchive alternatives Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-11-09 21:50 +0100
              Re: apt-ftparchive alternatives David Kalnischkies <david@kalnischkies.de> - 2025-11-10 14:00 +0100

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