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Re: Snit posts decent article on Linux Advocates

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On 4/9/13 11:12 AM, in article kk1lh6$ial$1@dont-email.me, "TomB"
<tommy.bongaerts@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 04/08/2013 07:39 PM, Snit wrote:
>> On 4/8/13 9:56 AM, in article 20130408184619.747@usenet.drumscum.be, "TomB"
>> <tommy.bongaerts@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 2013-04-07, the following emerged from the brain of Snit:
> 
> 8<
> 
>>>> I have worked with Cinnamon some and Mate even less. But if Gnome
>>>> made it so that programs that are made for Gnome 2 do not work well
>>>> under Gnome 3 they made a big mistake. Not that there might be
>>>> *some* changes - after all, that is how progress happens - but they
>>>> should work mostly (and from what I have seen they do). Do you have
>>>> any examples?
>>> 
>>> Any Gtk2 program on Cinnamon; any GTK3 program on Mate. See this
>>> article to understand what I mean:
>>> 
>>> http://www.kirsle.net/blog/kirsle/gnome-s-impact-on-everything
>> 
>> Ah, get what you mean - and I had ran into this but did not know the reason
>> (did not spend any time searching). This affects the window chrome - but as
>> far as I know this does not affect the menu placements, names, hot keys,
>> etc. Not that it should not be fixed... and not that it has not been
>> recognized as a problem... you showed that it *has* been.
> 
> It affects how well programs of your Mate/Gnome2 desktop integrate in
> your Cinnamon/Gnome3 desktop.

In ways other than described, above?

> As such my spin-offs example definitely isn't what you called a good example
> of the progress you're talking about.
> 
> To cut a long story short: when you give people the freedom to do
> something totally different, they *will* do something totally different.
> And yes, that's my optimism talking here.

Nobody is saying people should all do things the same way... remember, my
point is about doing things to allow *greater* choice and diversity... not
less.

>> Similar stuff happens even on OS X .... not with the chrome of the windows
>> but with some features. Newer OS X programs have new options in the menu bar
>> (and a removal of the black dot to show a file has been edited - that info
>> is now more clear): <http://tmp.gallopinginsanity.com/NewMenu.png>.
>> 
>> Older programs do not get this without an update. Perhaps worse than that,
>> there are significant differences in how files are saved - newer programs
>> automatically save files on Quit (if you want... it is configurable). Older
>> programs do not (except some databases and the like which always have).
>> 
>> I mention this simply because I point to OS X as the "gold standard" in UI
>> consistency... but *too* much of a focus on consistency can lead to
>> stagnation. I would not want that on Gnome or OS X, even though transitions
>> can lead to some inconsistencies and other problems.
> 
> But this is not a transitional thing. The transitional thing was from
> Gnome2 to Gnome3.

As you showed, people recognize the problem and are working on fixes. I
suspect they will be largely successful.

> This specific example of how stuff definitely isn't moving in the direction
> you "predicted" is about the *current* Gnome3 and the *current* Mate desktops.

I never said there would not be hiccups along the way, people doing things
outside of what I have talked about, etc.

Of course there will. Heck, the in article referenced in the subject line I
even talk about this briefly.

> Mate simply is a new environment built on an (by the Gnome devs) obsoleted
> one, and was created for the sole reason of providing choice to those
> preferring the way Gnome2 worked and looked.
> 
> The same thing happened when KDE4 came out, when the Trinity project was
> started to keep the KDE3 code base alive and kicking.
> 
> More choice: good. More diversity: good. More interface "look and feel"
> clashes: the nature of the beast.
> 
> This is not pessimism; this is realism.

What other than the chrome is affected? And what parts are people not
working in fixes for?

>>> As I noted in another posting I'm well aware of cooperation on IPC
>>> stuff and the like, but that's not the stuff we're talking about here.
>>> We're talking about menu lay-out, usage of icons, dialogs...
>> 
>> I have seen discussions about this but do not know of any specific work on
>> it. Yet.
> 
> And there is a reason for that: there are too much practical, political
> and technical limitations to get the kind of flexibility you envision.

I have said all along it will not be easy or quick or perfect... but Kubuntu
and PCLOS show that my basic views *are* coming true. And, remember, the
same arguments you are using now have been tossed at me for years... but we
are seeing proof that what I predicted *is* coming true.

Again, does not prove the specifics I speak about will come true just
because I was right in the past as the COLA "advocates" argued against me...
but it does show I have a stronger track record.

>> I have seen specific comments from the Firefox team (and others,
>> including OpenOffice and, I believe, GIMP) about the challenges of having
>> their software fit the different environments they run on.
>> 
>>>>> But this doesn't mean at all that there's even the slightest bit of
>>>>> cooperation between the Gnome and KDE teams to make both
>>>>> environments integrate with each other.
>>>> 
>>>> I do not think anyone is asking to have the environments themselves
>>>> "integrate" with each other - the idea is to allow program to
>>>> integrate well with either.
>>> 
>>> That's what I meant.
>> 
>> I could repeat your rather derogatory comments about clarity and accuracy
>> that you used against me the other day but I am above that. :)
> 
> I would've accepted comments like that without a problem. And if you
> took mine as derogatory: they definitely weren't meant like that.

Not worth digging up the quotes... but your tone was clearly derogatory. Not
interested in the side issue. If I want to just trade insults I will talk to
Bilk. :)



-- 
"On desktops, Linux has had a hard time cracking the 1 per cent mark,
although some of the web analytics companies now put it at around 1.5 per
cent." -- Linus Torvalds

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Re: Snit posts decent article on Linux Advocates TomB <tommy.bongaerts@gmail.com> - 2013-04-08 16:56 +0000
  Re: Snit posts decent article on Linux Advocates Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2013-04-08 10:39 -0700
    Re: Snit posts decent article on Linux Advocates TomB <tommy.bongaerts@gmail.com> - 2013-04-09 20:12 +0200
      Re: Snit posts decent article on Linux Advocates Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2013-04-09 16:19 -0400
      Re: Snit posts decent article on Linux Advocates Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2013-04-09 13:56 -0700
        Re: Snit posts decent article on Linux Advocates Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2013-04-09 14:01 -0700
          Re: Snit posts decent article on Linux Advocates Steve Carroll <fretwizzen@gmail.com> - 2013-04-09 14:18 -0700
        Re: Snit posts decent article on Linux Advocates TomB <tommy.bongaerts@gmail.com> - 2013-04-10 20:58 +0000
          Re: Snit posts decent article on Linux Advocates Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2013-04-10 14:42 -0700
            Re: Snit posts decent article on Linux Advocates TomB <tommy.bongaerts@gmail.com> - 2013-04-11 18:29 +0000
              Re: Snit posts decent article on Linux Advocates Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2013-04-11 12:50 -0700
                Re: Snit posts decent article on Linux Advocates TomB <tommy.bongaerts@gmail.com> - 2013-04-12 15:55 +0000
                Re: Snit posts decent article on Linux Advocates Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2013-04-12 09:56 -0700
              Re: Snit posts decent article on Linux Advocates JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> - 2013-04-11 15:09 -0500
                Re: Snit posts decent article on Linux Advocates Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2013-04-11 13:44 -0700
                Re: Snit posts decent article on Linux Advocates Hadron<hadronquark@gmail.com> - 2013-04-12 10:40 +0100
                Re: Snit posts decent article on Linux Advocates Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2013-04-12 06:34 -0700
  Re: Snit posts decent article on Linux Advocates Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2013-04-08 15:31 -0700

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