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Re: Any Clojure users here?

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On 29/01/2011 00:24, Deeyana wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Jan 2011 23:03:05 +0100, Pascal J. Bourguignon wrote:
>
>> "joswig@lisp.de"<joswig@lisp.de>  writes:
>>
>>> On 28 Jan., 16:55, Alessio Stalla<alessiosta...@gmail.com>  wrote:
>>>> On Friday, January 28, 2011 3:56:37 PM UTC+1, Raffael Cavallaro wrote:
>>>>> On 2011-01-27 21:36:06 -0500, Deeyana said:
>>>>
>>>>>> It's a Lisp. Prefix notation, homoiconicity, macros, lists, the
>>>>>> works.
>>>>
>>>>> One of the things that makes a lisp is minimal syntax (it's the
>>>>> minimal syntax that enables the homoiconicity). Clojure has
>>>>> significantly more syntax (three different types of semantically
>>>>> different parens last time I checked) than common lisp or scheme
>>>>> which makes clojure much less lispy imho.
>>>>
>>>> Lisp is not about minimal syntax per se, it's about representing
>>>> programs as trees and to have program text closely mirror the
>>>> corresponding tree in the general case. Clojure has a syntax for lists
>>>> - () - vectors - [] - and maps - {}, as well as numbers and strings
>>>> and other stuff, and uses all these kinds of objects to represent
>>>> expressions. Not that different from CL (which lacks syntax for
>>>> vectors and maps).
>>>
>>> Common Lisp has 'syntax' for vectors:
>>>
>>> #(1 2 3 I am a vector)
>>
>> And happily, it would occur to no lisp programmer to use vectors eg. in
>> a macro such as:
>>
>>      (let. #((v 1)
>>              (u 2))
>>          (+ v u))
>
> And yet it did occur to at least one Lisp programmer: Rich Hickey.

There have been a lot more in the past.

>> There's clearly no point in doing such a thing.
>
> There clearly is, and it is this: Clojure makes a distinction between
> code that's a data structure and code that's executable.

Discussions about syntax are boring.

Among the major reasons why people are interested in Clojure is that it 
somehow appeals to the idea that it is a "new" Lisp dialect, as if that 
by itself already meant anything; that it somehow makes parallel 
programming easier, which is only true for a narrow scope; and that it 
runs on top of the JVM, which is true for some other implementations of 
some other Lisp dialects as well. It seems to me that the latter is 
probably the main reason, because Clojure makes a few compromises in 
order to be able to run on the JVM - other Lisp dialects have a somewhat 
harder time to integrate smoothly with the JVM, if they want to stick to 
their original specs.

I don't care at all about JVM, to the contrary, I think the JVM is a 
pretty bad set of compromises that is only relevant because it has 
industry adoption - but from a technical perspective, it's just junk.

I can understand that if you absolutely must use the JVM for some 
non-technical reasons, you might as well want to do it with a layer on 
top that makes it somewhat more bearable.

But why would you want to do that if you have a real choice? (Don't say 
"libraries" now... ;)


Pascal

-- 
My website: http://p-cos.net
Common Lisp Document Repository: http://cdr.eurolisp.org
Closer to MOP & ContextL: http://common-lisp.net/project/closer/

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Re: Any Clojure users here? "joswig@lisp.de" <joswig@lisp.de> - 2011-01-28 14:07 -0800
  Re: Any Clojure users here? Deeyana <d.awlberg@hotmail.invalid> - 2011-01-31 19:18 +0000
  Re: Any Clojure users here? Tim Bradshaw <tfb@tfeb.org> - 2011-02-10 10:01 +0000
    Re: Any Clojure users here? Deeyana <d.awlberg@hotmail.invalid> - 2011-02-10 10:02 +0000
  Re: Any Clojure users here? Deeyana <d.awlberg@hotmail.invalid> - 2011-02-10 05:37 +0000
  Re: Any Clojure users here? Marco Antoniotti <marcoxa@gmail.com> - 2011-01-30 02:15 -0800
  Re: Any Clojure users here? Alessio Stalla <alessiostalla@gmail.com> - 2011-02-01 15:29 -0800
  Re: Any Clojure users here? Alessio Stalla <alessiostalla@gmail.com> - 2011-01-30 13:17 -0800
    Re: Any Clojure users here? Tim X <timx@nospam.dev.null> - 2011-02-01 18:07 +1100
    Re: Any Clojure users here? Pascal Costanza <pc@p-cos.net> - 2011-01-30 23:17 +0100
      Re: Any Clojure users here? Alessio Stalla <alessiostalla@gmail.com> - 2011-01-31 11:22 -0800
    Re: Any Clojure users here? Alessio Stalla <alessiostalla@gmail.com> - 2011-01-31 14:42 -0800
      Re: Any Clojure users here? TheFlyingDutchman <zzbbaadd@aol.com> - 2011-01-31 15:55 -0800
    Re: Any Clojure users here? Tim X <timx@nospam.dev.null> - 2011-02-01 08:24 +1100
  Re: Any Clojure users here? Deeyana <d.awlberg@hotmail.invalid> - 2011-01-31 19:47 +0000
    Re: Any Clojure users here? Rainer Joswig <joswig@lisp.de> - 2011-01-31 22:18 +0100
      Re: Any Clojure users here? Deeyana <d.awlberg@hotmail.invalid> - 2011-02-10 05:36 +0000
      Re: Any Clojure users here? "joswig@lisp.de" <joswig@lisp.de> - 2011-01-31 15:06 -0800
      Re: Any Clojure users here? Tim Bradshaw <tfb@tfeb.org> - 2011-01-31 22:56 +0000
    Re: Any Clojure users here? Rainer Joswig <joswig@lisp.de> - 2011-01-31 21:06 +0100
      Re: Any Clojure users here? Deeyana <d.awlberg@hotmail.invalid> - 2011-01-31 20:47 +0000
  Re: Any Clojure users here? "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2011-01-28 23:03 +0100
    Re: Any Clojure users here? "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2011-01-29 15:53 +0100
      Re: Any Clojure users here? Deeyana <d.awlberg@hotmail.invalid> - 2011-01-30 01:55 +0000
        Re: Any Clojure users here? Pascal Costanza <pc@p-cos.net> - 2011-01-30 10:42 +0100
      Re: Any Clojure users here? "MarkHaniford@gmail.com" <markhaniford@gmail.com> - 2011-01-29 17:32 -0800
      Re: Any Clojure users here? Marco Antoniotti <marcoxa@gmail.com> - 2011-01-29 09:44 -0800
    Re: Any Clojure users here? Tim X <timx@nospam.dev.null> - 2011-01-30 10:24 +1100
      Re: Any Clojure users here? Deeyana <d.awlberg@hotmail.invalid> - 2011-02-10 04:59 +0000
      Re: Any Clojure users here? Antony <remove+spam_lisp.linux@gmail.com> - 2011-02-01 06:08 -0800
      Re: Any Clojure users here? Pascal Costanza <pc@p-cos.net> - 2011-01-30 23:16 +0100
    Re: Any Clojure users here? Pascal Costanza <pc@p-cos.net> - 2011-01-29 01:28 +0100
    Re: Any Clojure users here? "joswig@lisp.de" <joswig@lisp.de> - 2011-01-28 14:56 -0800
    Re: Any Clojure users here? Bill <schottstaedt@gmail.com> - 2011-01-29 06:23 -0800
    Re: Any Clojure users here? Deeyana <d.awlberg@hotmail.invalid> - 2011-01-28 23:24 +0000

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