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Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation

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Doc O'Leary ,   <droleary.usenet@2023.impossiblystupid.com> writes:

> In general, actual *people* aren’t disturbed.  It’s the *powers* that
> are disturbed.  Usenet is a content distribution network that isn’t
> beholden to capitalistic principles.  Rather than figuring out a way to
> use it to their advantage, they rolled out the legal threats and
> destroyed it.

A caveat to this analysis is CSAM (child sexual abuse material).  (And a
few related nonconsentual things like revenge porn and torture videos, but
CSAM is the most obvious and straightforward to analyze.)  This problem is
unfortunately used by the most authoritarian assholes in government as an
excuse to do all sorts of nasty surveillance state shit, so it's very
tempting to decide the whole problem is imaginary and was invented by
wannabe tin-pot dictators to try to get vast police powers.  But
unfortunately if you work for any length of time in or around abuse
prevention, you very quickly realize that it's also a real problem.  There
are indeed organized groups of peoople who are trying to trade CSAM and
will use your service to do it if you let them, and there's real abuse of
real people underneath it.

Every single service that lets people trade file formats that can be used
for CSAM eventually has to come to terms with this and figure out how
they're going to handle it.  And regardless of what you personally may
feel about how the law *should* handle this problem, the rest of society
has really strong opinions about it for rather understandable reasons and
in most countries has set a bunch of rules for how you WILL handle it
whether you like it or not, often backed up by the threat of actual
criminal prosecution, not just the copyright cartel nonsense.

I mostly stay out of these discussions because I ended up saying pretty
much everything I had to say back in 2005 or so and burned out on them,
but people who haven't worked in platform abuse regularly drastically
underestimate the amount of really dark and disturbing shit that people
try to use services to distribute *and make* and assume that the usual
suspects are just lying about it to scare people.  And don't get me wrong,
they do routinely lie about things to scare people.  But this one is worth
thinking about independently and figuring out how you are going to deal
with, because getting in the middle of that is really bad.  Legally, yes,
but also seeing stuff that you will really want to unsee.

> Kind of off topic, but it has been amusing to watch the saga of how the
> alternative have played out in a way that still did not benefit the
> content creators.  Musicians complain about the pennies they make from
> streaming.  Writers and actors are both on strike now because Hollywood
> I s being Hollywood.  And the places providing porn are still under
> attack from the morality police, as the woes of PornHub and others in
> Utah and beyond are many.  It almost makes it seem like the problem
> never *was* Usenet at all!  :-/

The problem certainly was never Usenet.  Usenet has always been a bit of a
backwater, and a lot of this stuff is indeed capitalist bullshit or
prudish nonsense.  But Usenet is also not somehow immune from the more
serious problems that do exist.

The absolute libertarian position is very tempting here.  For a long time
I too was persuaded by it, and I think it does work up to a certain scale.
But the world is very large and full of people and a tiny fraction of
those people want to do some seriously evil shit and will use your servers
to do it if you let them, and you do need to have some sort of plan to
stop them unless you are willing to support a type of social free-for-all
that 99.99% of humanity is not going to be willing to tolerate.

-- 
Russ Allbery (eagle@eyrie.org)             <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

          Please post questions rather than mailing me directly.
     <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/questions.html> explains why.

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Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation Julien ÉLIE <iulius@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid> - 2023-07-08 09:42 +0200
  Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation Michael Uplawski <michael.uplawski@uplawski.eu> - 2023-07-08 10:43 +0200
  Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation Marco Moock <mo01@posteo.de> - 2023-07-09 12:04 +0200
    Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> - 2023-07-09 14:40 +0000
      Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation Marco Moock <mo01@posteo.de> - 2023-07-09 16:43 +0200
        Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> - 2023-07-09 15:37 +0000
          Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation Marco Moock <mo01@posteo.de> - 2023-07-09 19:13 +0200
            Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> - 2023-07-09 17:50 +0000
  Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation Doc O'Leary ,   <droleary.usenet@2023.impossiblystupid.com> - 2023-07-09 14:29 +0000
    Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation Marco Moock <mo01@posteo.de> - 2023-07-09 16:44 +0200
      Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation Doc O'Leary ,   <droleary.usenet@2023.impossiblystupid.com> - 2023-07-15 15:01 +0000
        Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2023-07-15 16:37 +0000
          Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation Doc O'Leary ,   <droleary@2017usenet1.subsume.com> - 2023-07-20 05:43 +0000
            Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation Russ Allbery <eagle@eyrie.org> - 2023-07-19 23:27 -0700
              Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation Doc O'Leary ,   <droleary@2017usenet1.subsume.com> - 2023-07-23 23:19 +0000
                Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation Russ Allbery <eagle@eyrie.org> - 2023-07-23 17:09 -0700
                Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation mccomb@medieval.org (Todd M. McComb) - 2023-07-24 00:42 +0000
                Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation Russ Allbery <eagle@eyrie.org> - 2023-07-23 18:09 -0700
                Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation mccomb@medieval.org (Todd M. McComb) - 2023-07-24 01:53 +0000
                Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard) - 2023-07-24 16:00 +0000
                Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation mccomb@medieval.org (Todd M. McComb) - 2023-07-24 16:38 +0000
                Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard) - 2023-07-24 15:58 +0000
                Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation Doc O'Leary ,   <droleary@2017usenet1.subsume.com> - 2023-07-30 01:26 +0000
                Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation John <john@building-m.simplistic-anti-spam-measure.net> - 2023-07-30 03:27 +0000
                Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation Doc O'Leary ,   <droleary@2017usenet1.subsume.com> - 2023-08-05 17:36 +0000
                Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2023-08-05 19:11 +0000
                Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation Jesse Rehmer <jesse.rehmer@blueworldhosting.com> - 2023-08-05 20:00 +0000
                Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation Syber Shock <admin@sybershock.com> - 2023-07-31 11:00 -0500
            Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2023-07-20 08:37 +0100
              Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation Jesse Rehmer <jesse.rehmer@blueworldhosting.com> - 2023-07-20 13:24 +0000
                Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation Marco Moock <mo01@posteo.de> - 2023-07-20 17:23 +0200
                Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> - 2023-07-20 15:44 +0000
                Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation Jesse Rehmer <jesse.rehmer@blueworldhosting.com> - 2023-07-20 18:41 +0000
                Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation Russ Allbery <eagle@eyrie.org> - 2023-07-20 11:55 -0700
                Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation Jesse Rehmer <jesse.rehmer@blueworldhosting.com> - 2023-07-20 19:04 +0000
                Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation Russ Allbery <eagle@eyrie.org> - 2023-07-20 12:37 -0700
                Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> - 2023-07-20 20:06 +0000
                Re: movies, was Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2023-07-20 21:46 +0000
                Re: movies "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> - 2023-07-20 22:08 +0000
                Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation Jesse Rehmer <jesse.rehmer@blueworldhosting.com> - 2023-07-20 20:09 +0000
                Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2023-07-20 21:47 +0000
                Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2023-07-21 08:42 +0100
                Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation Jesse Rehmer <jesse.rehmer@blueworldhosting.com> - 2023-07-21 10:59 +0000
                Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2023-07-21 16:47 +0100
                Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2023-07-20 21:42 +0000
                Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2023-07-20 21:39 +0000
                Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation Jesse Rehmer <jesse.rehmer@blueworldhosting.com> - 2023-07-21 01:33 +0000
                Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2023-07-21 02:19 +0000
                Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation Russ Allbery <eagle@eyrie.org> - 2023-07-20 20:13 -0700
                Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation Jesse Rehmer <jesse.rehmer@blueworldhosting.com> - 2023-07-21 03:39 +0000
                Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation Julien ÉLIE <iulius@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid> - 2023-07-30 13:53 +0200
                Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation doctor@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca (The Doctor) - 2023-07-30 12:40 +0000
                Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2023-07-21 16:54 +0100
        Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation Russ Allbery <eagle@eyrie.org> - 2023-07-15 09:37 -0700
          Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation Doc O'Leary ,   <droleary@2017usenet1.subsume.com> - 2023-07-20 04:54 +0000
            Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation Russ Allbery <eagle@eyrie.org> - 2023-07-19 23:21 -0700
              Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation Jesse Rehmer <jesse.rehmer@blueworldhosting.com> - 2023-07-20 13:22 +0000
                Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation Russ Allbery <eagle@eyrie.org> - 2023-07-20 09:05 -0700
                Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation Jesse Rehmer <jesse.rehmer@blueworldhosting.com> - 2023-07-20 17:23 +0000
                Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation Russ Allbery <eagle@eyrie.org> - 2023-07-20 10:34 -0700
                Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation Jesse Rehmer <jesse.rehmer@blueworldhosting.com> - 2023-07-20 18:03 +0000
              Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation Doc O'Leary ,   <droleary@2017usenet1.subsume.com> - 2023-07-24 00:12 +0000
                Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation Russ Allbery <eagle@eyrie.org> - 2023-07-23 17:38 -0700
                Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation Doc O'Leary ,   <droleary@2017usenet1.subsume.com> - 2023-07-30 02:18 +0000
    Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation John <john@building-m.simplistic-anti-spam-measure.net> - 2023-07-09 18:08 +0000
  Re: Conference about Usenet, federation and moderation legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard) - 2023-07-20 16:01 +0000

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