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Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge

From	Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge
Date	2013-06-15 14:56 -0700
Organization	Nightsong/Fort GNOX
Message-ID	<7x4nczghro.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> (permalink)
References	(4 earlier) <2013Jun11.165956@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <7xehc83xx2.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <2013Jun12.171604@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <7xppvn880t.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <kpil1f$k51$1@online.de>

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Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> writes:
> So if you write a Forth in Ruby, you either make it simple, and then
> you will get something considerably different (RPL or so), or you try
> hard to implement Forth, and it will look messy.

I guess JSForth is messy, though maybe it could be cleaned up some, and
maybe Ruby could be less messy than JS, I don't know.  

> No, but you ditched the dictionary entry entirely, by saying that "it
> does a CREATE".  Then the magic Anton mentions just goes to CREATE.

Then maybe there's something to CREATE that I don't understand, but I
thought it just reads the next input token, makes a dictionary entry (a
straightforward data structure) and adjusts a few variables.

>> You mean like functions?  Of course that seems useful.
> Maybe if you program in Haskell.  Functions are not that common in
> programs, as most subroutine have side-effects.

I think the concept of purity in functions doesn't really occur to most
programmers unless they've been exposed to something like Haskell.
Functions in programming conceptually start out as things like "square
root", but since they're code, they can have print statements and
whatnot, and nobody notices that this is impure.  

> A friend of mine tried learning Haskell, and his "proof of the
> pudding" is writing a word count program.  After he was 1/3 through
> the Haskell book, he still couldn't.  Because the I/O was still
> missing, and Haskell's file I/O isn't done right.

http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Simple_unix_tools

> IMHO, Haskell should treat the file system as a index -> value table. 

This might make sense for a read-only file system, where you don't care
about large files.

Haskell's "lazy i/o" stuff (shown above) works pretty well for many
things and is fairly easy to understand for simple use cases, and it
should be fine for a word count program, or even for something like TeX.
It turns out to be impure in a way that bites you if you're writing
stuff like network servers and you find your program leaking file
descriptors, but this is mostly an issue if you're opening 1000's of
them.  The "pure" way to do it that avoids these leaks is unfortunately
rather complicated.  Various ways to bring clarity to it are still being
developed.

> It was about *implementation*, not about the language as such.
> Forth's implementation is no way untypical, a lot of languages have
> VMs which, under the hood, don't look that much different.

That's just the address interpreter.  The text interpreter and compiler
is almost shocking ;-).  The language and its programming practices
revolve around that one-pass transliteration into the dictionary.

> Oh, yes, Forth is about solving the problem at hand, not something
> general.  How would that wholemeal approach e.g. solve the Triceps
> playing Go stuff?. ..  Forth approach: Take the OpenGL texture the
> webcam renders its preview into, and draw it with perspectivic

Probably kind of similar except you'd have a series of transforms that
were composed with each other without a lot of explicit coordinates in
between.

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jonesforth: taking up the challenge albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-06-04 18:14 +0000
  Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-04 11:28 -0700
  Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-06 15:37 -0500
    Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-06 13:49 -0700
      Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2013-06-07 12:32 +1000
    Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-06-07 14:36 +0000
      Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-07 08:39 -0700
        Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-06-07 17:04 +0000
          Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-07 11:19 -0700
          Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-06-07 17:24 -0400
            Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-06-07 23:04 +0000
        Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-11 14:59 +0000
          Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Bill Richards <billrich@gmx.com> - 2013-06-11 16:09 +0000
            Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-12 08:08 -0500
              Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Bill Richards <billrich@gmx.com> - 2013-06-12 13:52 +0000
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-12 14:17 -0500
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-13 08:24 +0000
              Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-06-12 14:18 +0000
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Bill Richards <billrich@gmx.com> - 2013-06-12 15:05 +0000
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-06-13 01:40 +0000
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-06-13 08:55 +0200
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-06-12 21:05 -1000
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-06-13 10:49 +0200
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-13 08:55 +0000
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-13 14:33 +0200
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-13 13:14 +0000
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Bill Richards <billrich@gmx.com> - 2013-06-13 18:33 +0000
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-14 01:25 -0700
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-15 12:00 -0400
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-15 14:35 -0700
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-15 19:29 -0400
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-17 03:31 -0700
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-17 19:16 -0400
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-15 11:58 -0400
          Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-11 18:32 +0200
            Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-11 10:33 -0700
              Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-06-11 20:42 +0100
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-12 00:20 -0700
              Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-12 01:29 -0700
              Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-12 19:52 +0200
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-12 14:19 -0500
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-13 08:47 +0000
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-13 07:45 -0500
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-13 13:04 +0000
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-14 21:32 -0700
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-17 17:15 +0000
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-06-20 09:42 +0200
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-06-19 21:52 -1000
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-16 10:01 -0500
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-16 14:14 -0700
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-16 23:58 +0200
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-16 23:17 -0700
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-17 16:00 +0000
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-06-17 08:05 -1000
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-06-17 19:33 +0000
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Gerry Jackson <spam@qlikz.org> - 2013-06-17 21:23 +0100
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-12 22:58 -0700
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-06-12 20:48 -1000
              Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-15 12:05 -0400
            Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-06-13 10:39 +0000
          Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-11 18:44 -0700
            Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-12 15:16 +0000
              Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-15 12:54 -0700
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-06-15 11:05 -1000
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-15 14:21 -0700
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-15 23:06 +0200
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-15 14:56 -0700
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-16 00:33 +0200
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-15 16:47 -0700
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-16 09:45 -0500
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-17 16:19 +0000
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-17 11:51 -0700
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-18 00:31 -0700
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-18 00:33 -0700
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-18 00:46 -0700
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-18 04:11 -0500
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-18 23:51 -0700
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-19 04:32 -0500
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-19 02:42 -0700
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-06-19 12:08 +0200
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-19 09:25 -0700
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-06-19 19:10 +0200
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-20 17:08 -0700
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-19 09:04 -0500
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-19 09:26 -0700
      Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-07 16:45 -0500
  Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-06-06 23:29 -0400
    Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-06-07 14:41 +0000
      Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-06-07 17:24 -0400
        Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-06-07 23:07 +0000
          Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-08 01:26 +0200
            Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-07 17:54 -0700
              Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-06-19 10:01 +0000
            Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-06-08 07:29 +0200
              Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge mhx@iae.nl - 2013-06-07 23:17 -0700
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge mhx@iae.nl - 2013-06-08 01:30 -0700
              Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-07 23:41 -0700
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-06-08 09:35 +0200
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-08 14:28 +0000
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-06-08 21:22 +0200
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-06-19 10:06 +0000
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-06-19 12:27 +0200
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-06-19 10:44 +0000
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-06-08 21:55 +0200
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Bill Richards <billrich@gmx.com> - 2013-06-11 14:09 +0000
              Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-06-08 07:49 +0000
            Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-06-08 07:47 +0000
              Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-08 00:59 -0700
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-08 16:40 -0500
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-06-13 01:24 +0000
  Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-07 00:37 -0700
    Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-07 00:53 -0700
    Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-06-07 14:49 +0000
      Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Bill Richards <billrich@gmx.com> - 2013-06-11 14:13 +0000
  Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-06-12 14:21 +0000
  Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2013-06-15 23:22 -0700
    Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-06-15 21:26 -1000
      Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-16 12:58 -0700
      OT Making fun of gavino. was Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-06-19 10:52 +0000

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