Groups | Search | Server Info | Login | Register

Groups > comp.lang.forth > #23742

Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge

Show all headers | View raw

anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) writes:
> It's useful to understand assembly language for understanding both
> Forth-in-Forth and for understanding Forth-in-assembly. 

I suppose it's helpful to understand the concept of addresses, but
if you don't mind a VM implementation like retroforth, you can avoid
assembler altogether.

> Someone who does not know Forth does not know what CREATE does.  Also,
> even if they know Forth, they may have no idea how the dictionary is
> implemented.

You mean they don't know the concept of a lookup table indexed by
strings, or you mean they don't understand the Forth approach of a
linear heap?  For the former, it may be too early for them to be
implementing low level language interpreters if they don't know basic
data structures.  For the latter, I think a high level implementation is
perfectly instructive (example: JSForth).

>> Forth is relatively exotic language.
> The implementation techniques are similar to those of other languages,
> though.  And they are reduced to the essentials.  E.g., how do you
> implement an IF...ENDIF construct?  Just the same as in most other
> languages, but much simpler to implement.  How are calls and returns
> implemented?  Also similar, with Forth being simpler.  Symbol table?
> Likewise.

No I think Forth is more complicated, because of the metaprogramming
stuff, parsing words, deferred words, the general consequences of not
really having separate compilation and interpretation phases but still
having an early-binding compiler, etc.  A naive Lisp which is a pure
late-binding interpreter (even macros are just functions that receive
their args unevaluated) is much more conceptually clear, IMHO.  After
that, optimizations can be discussed.

> Many textbooks (and the compiler course I teach) start with scanning
> and parsing, but if you are more interested in generating running
> code, you may not want to start there.

I think that is considered an old-fashioned approach.  Here is CMU's
class info:

   http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~rwh/courses/ppl/

http://www.qatar.cmu.edu/cs/15150/

The textbook is here (1.8MB PDF):

   http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~rwh/plbook/book.pdf

It is an upper-level class though, not intro CS.  The intro CS class
recently started using ML, and has apparently been successful:

  http://www.qatar.cmu.edu/cs/15150/about.shtml

There are some posts about it on Harper's blog.

Back to comp.lang.forth | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar

Thread

Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-06-07 14:36 +0000
  Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-07 08:39 -0700
    Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-06-07 17:04 +0000
      Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-07 11:19 -0700
      Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-06-07 17:24 -0400
        Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-06-07 23:04 +0000
    Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-11 14:59 +0000
      Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Bill Richards <billrich@gmx.com> - 2013-06-11 16:09 +0000
        Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-12 08:08 -0500
          Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Bill Richards <billrich@gmx.com> - 2013-06-12 13:52 +0000
            Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-12 14:17 -0500
              Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-13 08:24 +0000
          Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-06-12 14:18 +0000
            Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Bill Richards <billrich@gmx.com> - 2013-06-12 15:05 +0000
              Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-06-13 01:40 +0000
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-06-13 08:55 +0200
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-06-12 21:05 -1000
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-06-13 10:49 +0200
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-13 08:55 +0000
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-13 14:33 +0200
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-13 13:14 +0000
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Bill Richards <billrich@gmx.com> - 2013-06-13 18:33 +0000
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-14 01:25 -0700
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-15 12:00 -0400
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-15 14:35 -0700
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-15 19:29 -0400
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-17 03:31 -0700
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-17 19:16 -0400
              Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-15 11:58 -0400
      Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-11 18:32 +0200
        Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-11 10:33 -0700
          Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-06-11 20:42 +0100
            Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-12 00:20 -0700
          Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-12 01:29 -0700
          Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-12 19:52 +0200
            Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-12 14:19 -0500
              Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-13 08:47 +0000
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-13 07:45 -0500
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-13 13:04 +0000
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-14 21:32 -0700
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-17 17:15 +0000
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-06-20 09:42 +0200
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-06-19 21:52 -1000
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-16 10:01 -0500
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-16 14:14 -0700
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-16 23:58 +0200
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-16 23:17 -0700
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-17 16:00 +0000
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-06-17 08:05 -1000
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-06-17 19:33 +0000
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Gerry Jackson <spam@qlikz.org> - 2013-06-17 21:23 +0100
            Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-12 22:58 -0700
              Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-06-12 20:48 -1000
          Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-15 12:05 -0400
        Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-06-13 10:39 +0000
      Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-11 18:44 -0700
        Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-12 15:16 +0000
          Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-15 12:54 -0700
            Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-06-15 11:05 -1000
              Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-15 14:21 -0700
            Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-15 23:06 +0200
              Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-15 14:56 -0700
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-16 00:33 +0200
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-15 16:47 -0700
            Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-16 09:45 -0500
            Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-17 16:19 +0000
              Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-17 11:51 -0700
              Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-18 00:31 -0700
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-18 00:33 -0700
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-18 00:46 -0700
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-18 04:11 -0500
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-18 23:51 -0700
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-19 04:32 -0500
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-19 02:42 -0700
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-06-19 12:08 +0200
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-19 09:25 -0700
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-06-19 19:10 +0200
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-20 17:08 -0700
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-19 09:04 -0500
                Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-19 09:26 -0700
  Re: jonesforth: taking up the challenge Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-07 16:45 -0500

csiph-web