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Re: MX Linux has an old-school look and feel. Here's why it's so popular

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25B.Z969 <25B.Z969@noda.net> wrote:
> On 8/16/22 6:39 PM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>> 25B.Z969 <25B.Z969@noda.net> wrote:
>>> On 8/14/22 7:06 PM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>
>>>> I tried going down both paths (installing Devuan via Star Linux,
>>>> which is mainly just a more stripped-down distro than the official
>>>> Devuan release). Devuan has been OK, except that there aren't any
>>>> official package repo mirrors in Australia,
>>>
>>>    Um .. really doesn't matter if they're on Mars at this point ...
>> 
>> Maybe not for the download speeds, but the delay for the
>> request-response round trip is much higher when dealing with
>> servers on the other side of the world. When downloading hundreds
>> of packages, that delay occours for each package, and can take
>> longer than the download itself for small ones.
> 
>   I understand that - had satellite internet back when
>   it was popular. Send packet, wait for packet to go
>   up 33,000 miles, go down 33,000 miles, then the
>   confirm took the reverse route. Not exactly "snappy",
>   but then web pages were SMALL at the time .

Yes I had that too. Newer satellite systems have somehow reduced
the delay, though it's still significantly more laggy than mobile
(which I use now instead).

>   But these days ? I regularly use European repos from
>   the USA. Seems about as fast as something very local.
>   Why is Australia any different ? No fiber-op from
>   the continent ? Deliberate throttling ?

I dunno, but I'd guess that Europe - USA is the best
intercontinental link around. If you're using servers that are slow
themselves then that also swamps the difference. Anyway it's
perceptible just by browsing the repo directories in Dillo at AU Vs
USA mirrors. Not worth worrying about with that, but the delay adds
up quick when you're requesting all the packages for a full OS
version upgrade.

If you use HTTPS then the encryption adds another variable that
might skew your results.

>>>> but I haven't attempted
>>>> a OS version upgrade with it yet. With AntiX I have attempted an
>>>> upgrade, and spent a few hours in dependency hell because the
>>>> package managers (when apt-get failed, I moved to Aptitude) tended
>>>> to select newer Systemd-based packages on the Debian servers
>>>> instead of the AntiX ones when resolving dependencies. At the same
>>>> time I couldn't just remove the Debian repos from
>>>> /etc/apt/sources.list because most of the other dependencies were
>>>> only on the Debian servers, so the only way to go was to take
>>>> things one error message at a time and select all the
>>>> Systemd-related package versions manually (geeze it's wormed its
>>>> way into a lot of stuff!).
>>>
>>>    Antix IS a bit "marginal" and you've gotta do extra
>>>    work to get exactly the packages you want. Apt and
>>>    Aptitude CAN offer finer control than apt-get, but
>>>    there are LOTS of fiddly params and often fer-crap
>>>    documentation/examples to go by.
>> 
>> If there's a package manager that has a setting for preferencing
>> packages from a particular server, or with the "nosystemd" label,
>> no matter how deep it's burried in the docs, that would solve the
>> problem. But I tried looking for that myself and failed to come up
>> with anything.
> 
>   I never recall SEEING a "No Systemd" in any of the docs.

The "nosystemd" label is an AntiX addition to Debian's "dev",
"main", and "nonfree". Here it is on one of AntiX's frustratingly
existant (given the Devuan situation) Australian mirror sites:
http://mirror.datamossa.io/mxlinux/antix/bullseye/pool/nosystemd/

So I was looking for a way to tell a package manager to prefer the
packages from "/nosystemd", but still use other packages where none
of the "nosystemd" ones fulfill the dependency. Seems like it
should be an option, but no dice.

>   Fact is that systemd has so thoroughly permeated the
>   LinuScape that the package writers now just ASSUME you
>   will have it and want it. Their set-up scripts just
>   start writing stuff to /etc/systemd/system and will
>   get confused if systemctl and those folders aren't
>   there. Some may just INSTALL systemd to resolve their
>   little problems. It will be like that more and more.
> 
>   As Devuan and a few others make their name by NOT
>   using systemd, I think it's up to them to provide
>   the systemd-less repositories. Even thus, there
>   comes a point where porting those systemd-loving
>   utilities/apps back to init.d will become too
>   much of a chore. That's the facts as I see them.

That fear is old now and I haven't seen it surface in practice with
anything that I want to run. Mind you software by Systemd-lovers is
likely to be dismissed by me for other reasons anyway.

>   So perhaps being systemd-free is a temporary illusion ?
>   Better tools to fully visualize/catalog what systemd
>   is DOING might be the better way. Keep the Devil in
>   FRONT of you, so you can see what he's up to ...

Well I like to be able to change what he's up to by editing a shell
script, so on that basis it's irreconcilable and I'll just have to
use FreeDOS instead - Hello AUTOEXEC.BAT! :)

-- 
__          __
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MX Linux has an old-school look and feel. Here's why it's so popular Internetado <internetado@alt119.net> - 2022-08-09 08:34 -0300
  Re: MX Linux has an old-school look and feel. Here's why it's so popular Johnny <johnny@invalid.net> - 2022-08-09 08:05 -0500
  Re: MX Linux has an old-school look and feel. Here's why it's so popular "25B.Z969" <25B.Z969@noda.net> - 2022-08-09 09:32 -0400
    Re: MX Linux has an old-school look and feel. Here's why it's so popular Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2022-08-09 13:53 -0400
      Re: MX Linux has an old-school look and feel. Here's why it's so popular Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> - 2022-08-09 21:09 +0200
        Re: MX Linux has an old-school look and feel. Here's why it's so popular "25B.Z969" <25B.Z969@noda.net> - 2022-08-09 22:29 -0400
          Re: MX Linux has an old-school look and feel. Here's why it's so popular Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2022-08-10 12:55 -0400
            Re: MX Linux has an old-school look and feel. Here's why it's so popular "25B.Z969" <25B.Z969@noda.net> - 2022-08-11 01:39 -0400
              Re: MX Linux has an old-school look and feel. Here's why it's so popular The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-08-11 09:30 +0100
                Re: MX Linux has an old-school look and feel. Here's why it's so popular Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2022-08-11 09:35 -0400
                Re: MX Linux has an old-school look and feel. Here's why it's so popular "25B.Z969" <25B.Z969@noda.net> - 2022-08-12 00:50 -0400
                Re: MX Linux has an old-school look and feel. Here's why it's so popular Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2022-08-12 15:19 -0400
                Re: MX Linux has an old-school look and feel. Here's why it's so popular "25B.Z969" <25B.Z969@noda.net> - 2022-08-13 01:45 -0400
      Re: MX Linux has an old-school look and feel. Here's why it's so popular The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-08-09 22:16 +0100
      Re: MX Linux has an old-school look and feel. Here's why it's so popular "25B.Z969" <25B.Z969@noda.net> - 2022-08-09 22:20 -0400
        Re: MX Linux has an old-school look and feel. Here's why it's so popular Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2022-08-10 13:16 -0400
          Re: MX Linux has an old-school look and feel. Here's why it's so popular Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> - 2022-08-10 19:28 +0200
          Re: MX Linux has an old-school look and feel. Here's why it's so popular Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> - 2022-08-10 11:39 -0700
          Re: MX Linux has an old-school look and feel. Here's why it's so popular not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2022-08-11 08:15 +1000
          Re: MX Linux has an old-school look and feel. Here's why it's so popular "25B.Z969" <25B.Z969@noda.net> - 2022-08-11 01:16 -0400
            Re: MX Linux has an old-school look and feel. Here's why it's so popular Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2022-08-11 09:26 -0400
              Re: MX Linux has an old-school look and feel. Here's why it's so popular "25B.Z969" <25B.Z969@noda.net> - 2022-08-12 00:43 -0400
                Re: MX Linux has an old-school look and feel. Here's why it's so popular Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> - 2022-08-11 23:11 -0700
                Re: MX Linux has an old-school look and feel. Here's why it's so popular "25B.Z969" <25B.Z969@noda.net> - 2022-08-13 01:41 -0400
                Re: MX Linux has an old-school look and feel. Here's why it's so popular Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2022-08-12 15:17 -0400
                Re: MX Linux has an old-school look and feel. Here's why it's so popular "25B.Z969" <25B.Z969@noda.net> - 2022-08-15 22:49 -0400
                Re: MX Linux has an old-school look and feel. Here's why it's so popular Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> - 2022-08-15 20:34 -0700
                Re: MX Linux has an old-school look and feel. Here's why it's so popular "25B.Z969" <25B.Z969@noda.net> - 2022-08-16 00:49 -0400
                Re: MX Linux has an old-school look and feel. Here's why it's so popular Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2022-08-16 15:05 -0400
                Re: MX Linux has an old-school look and feel. Here's why it's so popular "25B.Z969" <25B.Z969@noda.net> - 2022-08-16 21:13 -0400
  Re: MX Linux has an old-school look and feel. Here's why it's so popular "vladimir.rodionov@gmail.com" <vladimir.rodionov@gmail.com> - 2022-08-14 00:47 -0700
    Re: MX Linux has an old-school look and feel. Here's why it's so popular not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2022-08-15 09:06 +1000
      Re: MX Linux has an old-school look and feel. Here's why it's so popular "25B.Z969" <25B.Z969@noda.net> - 2022-08-16 00:35 -0400
        Re: MX Linux has an old-school look and feel. Here's why it's so popular not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2022-08-17 08:39 +1000
          Re: MX Linux has an old-school look and feel. Here's why it's so popular "25B.Z969" <25B.Z969@noda.net> - 2022-08-16 22:05 -0400
            Re: MX Linux has an old-school look and feel. Here's why it's so popular Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> - 2022-08-17 16:37 +1000
              Re: MX Linux has an old-school look and feel. Here's why it's so popular The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-08-17 12:26 +0100
                Re: MX Linux has an old-school look and feel. Here's why it's so popular not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2022-08-18 08:41 +1000
              Re: MX Linux has an old-school look and feel. Here's why it's so popular "25B.Z969" <25B.Z969@noda.net> - 2022-08-17 23:10 -0400
                Re: MX Linux has an old-school look and feel. Here's why it's so popular Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> - 2022-08-17 20:57 -0700
                Re: MX Linux has an old-school look and feel. Here's why it's so popular The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-08-18 12:11 +0100
                Re: MX Linux has an old-school look and feel. Here's why it's so popular "25B.Z969" <25B.Z969@noda.net> - 2022-08-18 20:20 -0400

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