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Einstein's 1905 nonsense about simultaneity highlighted even more trivially

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  Einstein's 1905 nonsense about simultaneity highlighted even more trivially Giovanni <giannifree@gmail.com> - 2021-11-05 15:24 -0700
    Re: Einstein's 1905 nonsense about simultaneity highlighted even more trivially Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2021-11-06 10:14 +1100
    Re: Einstein's 1905 nonsense about simultaneity highlighted even more trivially whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2021-11-05 18:17 -0500
      Re: Einstein's 1905 nonsense about simultaneity highlighted even more trivially Giovanni <giannifree@gmail.com> - 2021-11-05 17:55 -0700
    Re: Einstein's 1905 nonsense about simultaneity highlighted even more trivially Giovanni <giannifree@gmail.com> - 2021-11-05 17:38 -0700
      Re: Einstein's 1905 nonsense about simultaneity highlighted even more trivially Michael Moroney <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com> - 2021-11-05 23:40 -0400
        Re: Einstein's 1905 nonsense about simultaneity highlighted even more trivially Giovanni <giannifree@gmail.com> - 2021-11-06 02:32 -0700
          Re: Einstein's 1905 nonsense about simultaneity highlighted even more trivially Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2021-11-06 21:56 +1100
            Re: Einstein's 1905 nonsense about simultaneity highlighted even more trivially Giovanni <giannifree@gmail.com> - 2021-11-06 04:14 -0700
              Re: Einstein's 1905 nonsense about simultaneity highlighted even more trivially Giovanni <giannifree@gmail.com> - 2021-11-06 04:39 -0700
                Re: Einstein's 1905 nonsense about simultaneity highlighted even more trivially Giovanni <giannifree@gmail.com> - 2021-11-06 04:48 -0700
              Re: Einstein's 1905 nonsense about simultaneity highlighted even more trivially Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2021-11-07 09:20 +1100
                Einstein's relativity confuses country folk. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2021-11-06 15:46 -0700
                  Re: Einstein's relativity confuses country folk. The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2021-11-06 21:21 -0700
                Re: Einstein's 1905 nonsense about simultaneity highlighted even more trivially Giovanni <giannifree@gmail.com> - 2021-11-07 04:20 -0800
          Re: Einstein's 1905 nonsense about simultaneity highlighted even more trivially Michael Moroney <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com> - 2021-11-06 13:19 -0400
    Re: Einstein's 1905 nonsense about simultaneity highlighted even more trivially Arindam Banerjee <banerjeeadda1234@gmail.com> - 2021-11-06 05:49 -0700
      Re: Einstein's 1905 nonsense about simultaneity highlighted even more trivially whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2021-11-06 10:35 -0500
        Re: Einstein's 1905 nonsense about simultaneity highlighted even more trivially Arindam Banerjee <banerjeeadda1234@gmail.com> - 2021-11-06 13:24 -0700
    Re: Einstein's 1905 nonsense about simultaneity highlighted even more trivially "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2021-11-06 10:27 -0700
      Re: Einstein's 1905 nonsense about simultaneity highlighted even more trivially Giovanni <giannifree@gmail.com> - 2021-11-08 01:06 -0800

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#835108 — Einstein's 1905 nonsense about simultaneity highlighted even more trivially

Bob is in the center of the station and Alice is in the center of the train.

When the train crosses the station and Bob is directly in front of Alice, two lightning strikes hit the head and tail of the train.

Bob tells Alice:

- two lightning strikes simultaneously hit the train, but not for you, because you, advancing together with the train, first saw the luminous wave front arriving from the head of the train and then the one starting from the tail of the train.

Alice tells Bob:

- you are crazy, look that although I was sleeping at that moment, I am able to prove you wrong, and in fact when the two lightning strikes woke me up, I went to examine the charred dead canary in the cage placed at the head of the train, and the dead canary charred in the cage placed at the end of the train, well, both were dead at the same time.

Giovanni from Italy.

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#835109

On 06-Nov-21 9:24 am, Giovanni wrote:
> Bob is in the center of the station and Alice is in the center of the train.
> 
> When the train crosses the station and Bob is directly in front of Alice, two lightning strikes hit the head and tail of the train.
> 
> Bob tells Alice:
> 
> - two lightning strikes simultaneously hit the train, but not for you, because you, advancing together with the train, first saw the luminous wave front arriving from the head of the train and then the one starting from the tail of the train.
> 
> Alice tells Bob:
> 
> - you are crazy, look that although I was sleeping at that moment, I am able to prove you wrong, and in fact when the two lightning strikes woke me up, I went to examine the charred dead canary in the cage placed at the head of the train, and the dead canary charred in the cage placed at the end of the train, well, both were dead at the same time.
> 
> Giovanni from Italy.
> 

What puzzles me is why you think your assumptions about how this would 
unfold prove anything.

Sylvia.

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#835110

On 11/5/2021 5:24 PM, Giovanni wrote:
> Bob is in the center of the station and Alice is in the center of the train.
> 
> When the train crosses the station and Bob is directly in front of Alice, two lightning strikes hit the head and tail of the train.
> 
> Bob tells Alice:
> 
> - two lightning strikes simultaneously hit the train, but not for you, because you, advancing together with the train, first saw the luminous wave front arriving from the head of the train and then the one starting from the tail of the train.
> 
> Alice tells Bob:
> 
> - you are crazy, look that although I was sleeping at that moment, I am able to prove you wrong, and in fact when the two lightning strikes woke me up, I went to examine the charred dead canary in the cage placed at the head of the train, and the dead canary charred in the cage placed at the end of the train, well, both were dead at the same time.

> Giovanni from Italy.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativity_of_simultaneity

"Einstein's version of the experiment[12] presumed that one observer was
sitting midway inside a speeding traincar and another was standing on a
platform as the train moved past. As measured by the standing observer,
the train is struck by two bolts of lightning simultaneously, but at
different positions along the axis of train movement (back and front of
the train car). In the inertial frame of the standing observer, there
are three events which are spatially dislocated, but simultaneous:
standing observer facing the moving observer (i.e., the center of the
train), lightning striking the front of the train car, and lightning
striking the back of the car.

"Since the events are placed along the axis of train movement, their
time
coordinates become projected to different time coordinates in the moving
train's inertial frame. Events which occurred at space coordinates in
the direction of train movement happen earlier than events at
coordinates opposite to the direction of train movement. In the moving
train's inertial frame, this means that lightning will strike the front
of the train car before the two observers align (face each other). "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativity_of_simultaneity

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#835117

> whodat wrote:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativity_of_simultaneity :
> "Einstein's version of the experiment[12] presumed that one observer was 
> sitting midway inside a speeding traincar and another was standing on a 
> platform as the train moved past. As measured by the standing observer, 
> the train is struck by two bolts of lightning simultaneously, but at 
> different positions along the axis of train movement (back and front of 
> the train car). In the inertial frame of the standing observer, there 
> are three events which are spatially dislocated, but simultaneous: 
> standing observer facing the moving observer (i.e., the center of the 
> train), lightning striking the front of the train car, and lightning 
> striking the back of the car. 
> 
> "Since the events are placed along the axis of train movement, their 
> time 
> coordinates become projected to different time coordinates in the moving 
> train's inertial frame. Events which occurred at space coordinates in 
> the direction of train movement happen earlier than events at 
> coordinates opposite to the direction of train movement. In the moving 
> train's inertial frame, this means that lightning will strike the front 
> of the train car before the two observers align (face each other). " 

Everything that you have reported and canonically accepted by official Physics (i.e. the use of light to verify simultaneity), generates a real epic systematic error (and precisely because the speed of light is invariant), a systematic error to which Einstein gave even a name: relative simultaneity.

To verify the simultaneity, however absolute, not only is it epically wrong to use light, but you can also do without it, in fact in my opening past of this threed I showed that 2 canaries are enough.

Giovanni from Italy.

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#835116

> Paolo Monsurro in Italy wrote:
> the instant of death is a bit too much

Establishing the instant of death of a death is only a technical and not a physical fact, in fact at the moment we are able to establish, with precision, the day and time of a death, but technically we can improve, as in reality it has happened and is happening , and thus reaching a perfect precision, and who knows that a super-technological alien civilization has not already succeeded.

Therefore, establishing the instant of death is true by definition, because we can ignore the imprecision that is introduced in the concept of the instant of death, since it can be overcome, as I have shown above, in the near future, and / or through an abstraction (thanks to the hypothesis of a super-technological alien civilization).

Giovanni from Italy.

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#835127

On 11/5/2021 8:38 PM, Giovanni wrote:
>> Paolo Monsurro in Italy wrote:
>> the instant of death is a bit too much
> 
> Establishing the instant of death of a death is only a technical and not a physical fact, in fact at the moment we are able to establish, with precision, the day and time of a death, but technically we can improve, as in reality it has happened and is happening , and thus reaching a perfect precision, and who knows that a super-technological alien civilization has not already succeeded.
> 
> Therefore, establishing the instant of death is true by definition, because we can ignore the imprecision that is introduced in the concept of the instant of death, since it can be overcome, as I have shown above, in the near future, and / or through an abstraction (thanks to the hypothesis of a super-technological alien civilization).

So the train observer sees the canary at the front of the car killed 
before the canary at the rear of the car is killed.

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#835136

> Michael Moroney ha scritto:
> So the train observer sees the canary at the front of the car killed 
> before the canary at the rear of the car is killed.

Alice, unlike Bob, is not crazy, so she doesn't trust her seeing, that is, she knows that the invariance of the speed of light will make her fall into error (Alice is even sleeping when the train is hit by the 2 lightning bolts ).

This is why Alice, once examined the charred mortal remains of the 2 canaries, certifies that for her too, Alice, the 2 lightning strikes simultaneously hit the train, having in fact found identical, the 2 instants of the death of the 2 canaries.

Giovanni from Italy.

 

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#835141

On 06-Nov-21 8:32 pm, Giovanni wrote:
>> Michael Moroney ha scritto:
>> So the train observer sees the canary at the front of the car killed
>> before the canary at the rear of the car is killed.
> 
> Alice, unlike Bob, is not crazy, so she doesn't trust her seeing, that is, she knows that the invariance of the speed of light will make her fall into error (Alice is even sleeping when the train is hit by the 2 lightning bolts ).
> 
> This is why Alice, once examined the charred mortal remains of the 2 canaries, certifies that for her too, Alice, the 2 lightning strikes simultaneously hit the train, having in fact found identical, the 2 instants of the death of the 2 canaries.
> 
> Giovanni from Italy.
> 
>   
> 
> 

How does the fact that they're both dead prove that they died at the 
same time in Alice's frame?

Sylvia.

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#835144

> Sylvia Else ha scritto:
> How does the fact that they're both dead prove that they died at the 
> same time in Alice's frame? 

I have already written it, that is, with other words:

- Alice manages to establish that the 2 canaries died simultaneously, based on the biochemical examination of their mortal remains, which in fact returns the same instant of death for both.

Giovanni from Italy.

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#835145

> Giovanni from Italy wrote:
> I have already written it, that is, with other words: 
> 
> - Alice manages to establish that the 2 canaries died simultaneously, based on the biochemical examination of their mortal remains, which in fact returns the same instant of death for both. 
> 

I further specify that the charred mortal remains of the 2 canaries both have the same instant of death, and exactly equal to X units of time ago.

Giovanni from Italy.

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#835148

It is now evident: simultaneity is independent of Physics, it is always true and it is only Technique.

Indeed:

Bob is on a spaceship in geostationary Earth's equatorial orbit, and so that he can see half the equator.

Alice is instead on the moon.

At one point Bob notices two nuclear explosions, and exactly at opposite points of the equator.

Bob tells Alice:

- two nuclear explosions occurred simultaneously on Earth, but not for you, because you, advancing together with the Moon, first saw the bright wave front that started in the west and then the one started in the east arrive.

Alice tells Bob:

- you are crazy, look that although I was sleeping at that moment, I am able to prove you wrong, and in fact when I woke up, the terrestrial space center, which had already biochemically examined the corpses in the east and west, told me via radio that all the corpses had the same instant of death, and exactly equal to X units of time ago.

Giovanni from Italy.

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#835194

On 06-Nov-21 10:14 pm, Giovanni wrote:
>> Sylvia Else ha scritto:
>> How does the fact that they're both dead prove that they died at the
>> same time in Alice's frame?
> 
> I have already written it, that is, with other words:
> 
> - Alice manages to establish that the 2 canaries died simultaneously, based on the biochemical examination of their mortal remains, which in fact returns the same instant of death for both.
> 
> Giovanni from Italy.
> 

Then we're back to your assuming that the outcome will be the one you 
expect. That's proof of nothing.

Sylvia.

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#835196 — Einstein's relativity confuses country folk.

Your associates, Giovanni & MitchellRaemsch, 
both have the same problem with physics, SylviaElse.

Einstein's relativity confuses country folk.

You Can't/Shouldn't teach a pig to sing.

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#835200 — Re: Einstein's relativity confuses country folk.

Jeff-Relf.Me, @. wrote:
> 
> Your associates, Giovanni & MitchellRaemsch,
> both have the same problem with physics, SylviaElse.
> 
> Einstein's relativity confuses country folk.
> 
> You Can't/Shouldn't teach a pig to sing.

Why do yous put lipstick on a pig?




-- 
The Starmaker -- To question the unquestionable, ask the unaskable,
 to think the unthinkable, mention the unmentionable, say the unsayable,
and challenge
 the unchallengeable.

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#835218

> > Sylvia Else wrote: 
> > How does the fact that they're both dead prove that they died at the 
> > same time in Alice's frame? 

> I Giovanni from Italy wrote:
> I have already written it, that is, with other words: 
> - Alice manages to establish that the 2 canaries died simultaneously,
> based on the biochemical examination of their mortal remains,
> which in fact returns the same instant of death for both. 

> > Then we're back to your assuming that the outcome will be the one you 
> > expect. That's proof of nothing.

The result cannot be different because with my post, for the umpteenth time also reported below (without the use of light and clocks, which Einstein considered mandatory to use them), I even denied the need for the birth of relativistic physics, in addition to prove that simultaneity is always true.

Einstein in 1905 is as if he had written the falsehood that to move, we have no choice, we can only use our legs (or light), and consequently giving birth to relativist physics with all the limitations and logical inconsistencies that follow.

Therefore, if it is not true that to move we can only use our legs (i.e. light), they are not even real physical phenomena: relative simultaneity, Lorentz transformations, kinematic time dilation and kinematic contraction of lengths, that is, they are only mathematical tools.

Here is my post without using the speeds of light and clocks.

-------------------------------------------------- ------------------
Bob is in the center of the station and Alice is in the center of the train.

Also in the center of the train, in the corridor, sideways to where Alice is sitting, there are two vertical panels with a series of horizontal lines drawn on them; I specify that these are two sliding panels that rotate vertically and continuously on themselves, until they automatically stop, because they are hit by an ink stain.

All the automatisms are guided by an electronic device placed at the base of the two vertical panels, and which also ensures the synchronicity of the sliding of the same two vertical panels.

These two vertically sliding panels therefore act as targets for two ink stains that are automatically fired by two cannons, one placed at the head of the train, and one placed at the tail of the train, when lightning strikes them. The two automatic firing devices are independent of each other, and each one is placed near its respective cannon.

When the train crosses the station and Bob is exactly in front of Alice, two lightning bolts hit the head and tail of the train.

Bob tells Alice:

- two lightning strikes simultaneously hit the train, but not for you, because you, advancing together with the train, first saw the luminous wave front arriving from the head of the train and then the one starting from the tail of the train.

Alice tells Bob:

- you are crazy, look that although I was sleeping at that moment, I am able to prove you wrong, and in fact when the two lightning bolts woke me up, I went to look at the two sliding panels, now stopped, placed in the corridor next to me, well , both had a spot of paint in correspondence with the same horizontal line.
-------------------------------------------------- ------------------

Giovanni from Italy.

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#835168

On 11/6/2021 5:32 AM, Giovanni wrote:
>> Michael Moroney ha scritto:
>> So the train observer sees the canary at the front of the car killed
>> before the canary at the rear of the car is killed.
> 
> Alice, unlike Bob, is not crazy, so she doesn't trust her seeing, that is, she knows that the invariance of the speed of light will make her fall into error (Alice is even sleeping when the train is hit by the 2 lightning bolts ).

So you are now saying there is no train observer to observe the events. 
So this whole discussing is meaningless.
> 
> This is why Alice, once examined the charred mortal remains of the 2 canaries, certifies that for her too, Alice, the 2 lightning strikes simultaneously hit the train, having in fact found identical, the 2 instants of the death of the 2 canaries.

To "certify" the 2 instants of the death of the 2 canaries as 
"identical" there would need to be suitable clocks to record this. You 
don't mention any suitable clocks. Or why times since death need to be 
used rather than actual observations.

Having Alice sleeping instead of observing the events is evasive.  What 
about Charlie, who is next to Alice, and is awake the whole time? What 
does Charlie see?

(in addition there is the issue of comparing times on two clocks remote 
from each other)

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#835158

On Saturday, 6 November 2021 at 09:24:17 UTC+11, Giovanni wrote:
> Bob is in the center of the station and Alice is in the center of the train. 
> 
> When the train crosses the station and Bob is directly in front of Alice, two lightning strikes hit the head and tail of the train. 
> 
> Bob tells Alice: 
> 
> - two lightning strikes simultaneously hit the train, but not for you, because you, advancing together with the train, first saw the luminous wave front arriving from the head of the train and then the one starting from the tail of the train. 

If they indeed strike simultaneously in absolute galactic time, yes.  The front wave would effectively move faster towards Alice with speed c+v, with the Doppler effect. And the back wave at c-v.  
> 
> Alice tells Bob: 
> 
> - you are crazy, look that although I was sleeping at that moment, I am able to prove you wrong, and in fact when the two lightning strikes woke me up, I went to examine the charred dead canary in the cage placed at the head of the train, and the dead canary charred in the cage placed at the end of the train, well, both were dead at the same time. 

No difference from Bob's observation. When the lightning struck simultaneously, it would kill the birds at once, but as the light wave moves faster from one end and slower from the other, Alice would PERCEIVE  that it first struck the front of the train.

Perception does not provide reality, as any number of psychology tests show.

All events are either synchronous or sequential. When we are aware of movement, we have to make adjustments for the correct sequencing.  Thus an event in Kolkata at 8:00 pm happens *after* something happens here at say 11:47 pm.  Simple school level geography lesson!
> 
> Giovanni from Italy.

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#835165

Even in this, Arindam Banerjee, you are out of your depth.

On 11/6/2021 7:49 AM, Arindam Banerjee wrote:
> On Saturday, 6 November 2021 at 09:24:17 UTC+11, Giovanni wrote:
>> Bob is in the center of the station and Alice is in the center of the train.
>>
>> When the train crosses the station and Bob is directly in front of Alice, two lightning strikes hit the head and tail of the train.
>>
>> Bob tells Alice:
>>
>> - two lightning strikes simultaneously hit the train, but not for you, because you, advancing together with the train, first saw the luminous wave front arriving from the head of the train and then the one starting from the tail of the train.
> 
> If they indeed strike simultaneously in absolute galactic time, yes.  The front wave would effectively move faster towards Alice with speed c+v, with the Doppler effect. And the back wave at c-v.
>>
>> Alice tells Bob:
>>
>> - you are crazy, look that although I was sleeping at that moment, I am able to prove you wrong, and in fact when the two lightning strikes woke me up, I went to examine the charred dead canary in the cage placed at the head of the train, and the dead canary charred in the cage placed at the end of the train, well, both were dead at the same time.
> 
> No difference from Bob's observation. When the lightning struck simultaneously, it would kill the birds at once, but as the light wave moves faster from one end and slower from the other, Alice would PERCEIVE  that it first struck the front of the train.
> 
> Perception does not provide reality, as any number of psychology tests show.
> 
> All events are either synchronous or sequential. When we are aware of movement, we have to make adjustments for the correct sequencing.  Thus an event in Kolkata at 8:00 pm happens *after* something happens here at say 11:47 pm.  Simple school level geography lesson!
>>
>> Giovanni from Italy.

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#835184

- flush -

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#835169

On Friday, November 5, 2021 at 3:24:17 PM UTC-7, Giovanni wrote:
> Bob is in the center of the station and Alice is in the center of the train. 
> 
> When the train crosses the station and Bob is directly in front of Alice, two lightning strikes hit the head and tail of the train. 
> 
> Bob tells Alice: 
> 
> - two lightning strikes simultaneously hit the train, but not for you, because you, advancing together with the train, first saw the luminous wave front arriving from the head of the train and then the one starting from the tail of the train. 
> 
> Alice tells Bob: 
> 
> - you are crazy, look that although I was sleeping at that moment, I am able to prove you wrong, and in fact when the two lightning strikes woke me up, I went to examine the charred dead canary in the cage placed at the head of the train, and the dead canary charred in the cage placed at the end of the train, well, both were dead at the same time. 
> 
> Giovanni from Italy.

Simultaneity is waiting on light to arrive from the distance together...

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