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Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #585428 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Tom Capizzi <tgcapizzi@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2022-05-15 18:48 -0700 |
| Last post | 2022-06-05 02:15 -0700 |
| Articles | 2 on this page of 122 — 14 participants |
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Special Relativity Fatal Error Tom Capizzi <tgcapizzi@gmail.com> - 2022-05-15 18:48 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2022-05-15 19:01 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2022-05-15 21:24 -0500
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Tom Capizzi <tgcapizzi@gmail.com> - 2022-05-15 19:34 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-05-16 14:54 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2022-05-16 15:51 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Tom Capizzi <tgcapizzi@gmail.com> - 2022-05-17 23:03 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-05-16 01:47 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2022-05-16 11:31 +0200
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Tom Capizzi <tgcapizzi@gmail.com> - 2022-06-08 01:13 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2022-06-08 10:11 -0500
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-06-08 21:27 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Tom Capizzi <tgcapizzi@gmail.com> - 2022-06-09 13:09 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Ricardo Jimenez <rickyjim@earthlink.net> - 2022-06-09 18:35 -0400
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Tom Capizzi <tgcapizzi@gmail.com> - 2022-06-09 18:38 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Stan Fultoni <fultonistan@gmail.com> - 2022-06-09 17:49 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Tom Capizzi <tgcapizzi@gmail.com> - 2022-06-09 18:50 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Stan Fultoni <fultonistan@gmail.com> - 2022-06-09 19:50 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Tom Capizzi <tgcapizzi@gmail.com> - 2022-06-09 21:25 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Stan Fultoni <fultonistan@gmail.com> - 2022-06-09 22:10 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2022-06-10 13:51 -0500
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Stan Fultoni <fultonistan@gmail.com> - 2022-06-10 15:55 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Tom Capizzi <tgcapizzi@gmail.com> - 2022-06-10 16:30 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Stan Fultoni <fultonistan@gmail.com> - 2022-06-10 16:37 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Tom Capizzi <tgcapizzi@gmail.com> - 2022-06-10 20:31 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Stan Fultoni <fultonistan@gmail.com> - 2022-06-10 17:43 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Tom Capizzi <tgcapizzi@gmail.com> - 2022-06-10 20:46 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Stan Fultoni <fultonistan@gmail.com> - 2022-06-10 21:47 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Tom Capizzi <tgcapizzi@gmail.com> - 2022-06-10 22:31 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Stan Fultoni <fultonistan@gmail.com> - 2022-06-10 22:56 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Tom Capizzi <tgcapizzi@gmail.com> - 2022-06-10 23:46 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Stan Fultoni <fultonistan@gmail.com> - 2022-06-11 00:36 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Tom Capizzi <tgcapizzi@gmail.com> - 2022-06-11 06:47 -0700
New crank? Old crank? "Dono." <eggy20011951@gmail.com> - 2022-06-11 07:23 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Tom Capizzi <tgcapizzi@gmail.com> - 2022-06-11 06:55 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Stan Fultoni <fultonistan@gmail.com> - 2022-06-11 07:32 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Tom Capizzi <tgcapizzi@gmail.com> - 2022-06-11 15:42 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Stan Fultoni <fultonistan@gmail.com> - 2022-06-11 16:56 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-06-11 22:38 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Stan Fultoni <fultonistan@gmail.com> - 2022-06-11 23:43 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-06-11 23:52 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Tom Capizzi <tgcapizzi@gmail.com> - 2022-06-12 10:54 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Stan Fultoni <fultonistan@gmail.com> - 2022-06-12 11:50 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-06-12 12:10 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2022-06-13 09:26 +0200
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-06-13 01:36 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2022-06-13 13:43 +0200
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-06-13 06:16 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2022-06-13 18:56 +0200
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-06-13 10:27 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2022-06-14 09:28 +0200
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-06-14 00:31 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2022-06-14 18:16 +0200
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-06-14 09:23 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Tom Capizzi <tgcapizzi@gmail.com> - 2022-06-12 17:27 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Stan Fultoni <fultonistan@gmail.com> - 2022-06-12 18:28 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Stan Fultoni <fultonistan@gmail.com> - 2022-06-12 19:06 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-06-12 23:03 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Tom Capizzi <tgcapizzi@gmail.com> - 2022-06-13 18:13 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Stan Fultoni <fultonistan@gmail.com> - 2022-06-13 18:35 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Tom Capizzi <tgcapizzi@gmail.com> - 2022-06-14 17:33 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Stan Fultoni <fultonistan@gmail.com> - 2022-06-14 19:17 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-06-14 22:48 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Tom Capizzi <tgcapizzi@gmail.com> - 2022-06-15 13:00 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Stan Fultoni <fultonistan@gmail.com> - 2022-06-15 17:05 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Tom Capizzi <tgcapizzi@gmail.com> - 2022-06-16 03:28 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Stan Fultoni <fultonistan@gmail.com> - 2022-06-16 06:49 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-06-16 08:43 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Tom Capizzi <tgcapizzi@gmail.com> - 2022-06-17 07:37 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Stan Fultoni <fultonistan@gmail.com> - 2022-06-17 12:55 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Tom Capizzi <tgcapizzi@gmail.com> - 2022-06-17 22:46 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Stan Fultoni <fultonistan@gmail.com> - 2022-06-18 07:44 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-06-18 08:46 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-06-19 09:31 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-06-19 12:36 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Tom Capizzi <tgcapizzi@gmail.com> - 2022-06-20 08:37 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Ricardo Jimenez <rickyjim@earthlink.net> - 2022-06-20 12:27 -0400
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2022-06-20 16:55 +0000
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Tom Capizzi <tgcapizzi@gmail.com> - 2022-06-20 16:18 -0700
Crank Tom Capizzi perseveres "Dono." <eggy20011951@gmail.com> - 2022-06-20 09:35 -0700
Re: Crank Tom Capizzi perseveres Tom Capizzi <tgcapizzi@gmail.com> - 2022-06-20 16:19 -0700
Re: Crank Tom Capizzi perseveres "Dono." <eggy20011951@gmail.com> - 2022-06-21 06:48 -0700
Re: Crank Tom Capizzi perseveres Tom Capizzi <tgcapizzi@gmail.com> - 2022-06-21 13:00 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Stan Fultoni <fultonistan@gmail.com> - 2022-06-20 11:39 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Tom Capizzi <tgcapizzi@gmail.com> - 2022-06-20 16:24 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Stan Fultoni <fultonistan@gmail.com> - 2022-06-20 17:22 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Tom Capizzi <tgcapizzi@gmail.com> - 2022-06-20 18:57 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Stan Fultoni <fultonistan@gmail.com> - 2022-06-20 20:38 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Tom Capizzi <tgcapizzi@gmail.com> - 2022-06-21 13:01 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-06-23 12:51 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-06-23 13:38 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Tom Capizzi <tgcapizzi@gmail.com> - 2022-06-16 03:44 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Tom Capizzi <tgcapizzi@gmail.com> - 2022-06-12 11:07 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Tom Capizzi <tgcapizzi@gmail.com> - 2022-06-12 11:19 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Tom Capizzi <tgcapizzi@gmail.com> - 2022-06-12 11:34 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-06-11 10:42 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Tom Capizzi <tgcapizzi@gmail.com> - 2022-06-10 20:57 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Tom Capizzi <tgcapizzi@gmail.com> - 2022-06-10 16:06 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-06-10 07:28 +0200
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-06-09 22:38 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-06-11 06:47 +0200
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Tom Capizzi <tgcapizzi@gmail.com> - 2022-06-10 23:34 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-06-12 07:26 +0200
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Tom Capizzi <tgcapizzi@gmail.com> - 2022-06-12 10:50 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-06-13 11:27 +0200
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Aldo <aldo.mayme.11084@cap.edu.mx> - 2022-05-16 15:08 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Tom Capizzi <tgcapizzi@gmail.com> - 2022-06-08 01:27 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2022-05-19 10:36 +1000
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-05-18 22:50 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2022-05-19 19:41 +1000
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-05-19 07:01 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2022-05-19 11:26 +0200
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Ricardo Jimenez <rickyjim@earthlink.net> - 2022-05-20 10:49 -0400
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Tom Capizzi <tgcapizzi@gmail.com> - 2022-06-08 01:39 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Tom Capizzi <tgcapizzi@gmail.com> - 2022-06-08 01:42 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2022-06-10 09:33 +1000
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Tom Capizzi <tgcapizzi@gmail.com> - 2022-06-09 17:27 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2022-06-10 11:56 +1000
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-06-05 10:37 +0200
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Tom Capizzi <tgcapizzi@gmail.com> - 2022-06-08 01:53 -0700
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-06-09 09:20 +0200
Re: Special Relativity Fatal Error JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-06-05 02:15 -0700
Page 7 of 7 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 4 5 6 [7]
| From | Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-06-09 09:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <jgdlaaFfvmvU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #586587 |
Am 08.06.2022 um 10:53 schrieb Tom Capizzi: > On Sunday, June 5, 2022 at 4:38:06 AM UTC-4, Thomas Heger wrote: >> Am 16.05.2022 um 03:48 schrieb Tom Capizzi: >>> After years of rereading Einstein and arguing with his legions of cultists, I finally caught his unfixable mistake. >> I had to cut off most of your message, because it is impossible to read >> long texts without any formatting or white space. >> >> Ok, it is in fact possible to read a text, despite the author did >> everything possible to make it hard. >> >> But you shouldn't count on the willingness to do so. >> >> >> But let me try to answer your question, anyhow.. >> >> >> Einstein's worst error in 'On the electrodynamics of moving bodies' was, >> that he attempted to create a function 'tau', which meant a coordinate >> transformation between two coordinate systems in relative motion. >> >> Such coordinate transformations should leave the phenomenon described in >> system A unchanged, if the desription is converted from A to coordinate >> system B. >> >> But Einstein ascribed the function tau to the phenomenon itself, which >> was interpreted as deformation of the form of that something (aka >> 'length contraction'). >> >> But coordinate transformations should not do that and change only the >> description (iow: change the vectors, not the things, the vectors were >> used to describe). >> >> >> TH > > There is nothing intrinsically wrong with the idea of coordinate transformation. Sure, coordinate transformations should be possible, because a coordinate system is not a real thing, but a system which we use to measure something. Now a coordinate transformation should leave the thing we measure unchanged, while alter measurement values. > What Einstein got totally wrong was the definition of a valid measurement. He applied a standard that had been in use for centuries. Unfortunately for him, he was trying to describe the new physics of relativistic velocity. He took the valid mathematical procedure for determining parallelness and incorrectly assigned the low speed approximation of this mathematical standard to be his measurement protocol. A number of contradictions result, which can only be corrected by the addition of more ad hoc corrections. Reminds me of the failed attempts to correct the geocentric model of the Solar System by the addition of ever more epicycles. The geocentric model was ultimately abandoned because it was wrong. Special relativity deserves the same fate. > Einstein ascribed the measurement values to the thing we measure itself, instead of to the measurement. That is a terrible flaw. E.g. the frequency change caused by the Doppler effect is 'unreal' because it is only visible at the side of the observer. Now Einstein's 'relativitic effects' (like length contraction and so forth) were meant as real physical effect, which occur at the side of the observed object, but were only justified by a coordinate transformation. Such effects must not be ascribed to the attributes of the observed thing, but to the observations. TH
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| From | JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-06-05 02:15 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <664e1019-1ce9-4f7f-a15f-625e24b4f398n@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #585428 |
On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 6:48:24 PM UTC-7, tgca...@gmail.com wrote: > After years of rereading Einstein and arguing with his legions of cultists, They are not "cultists". > I finally caught his unfixable mistake. There is no "mistake" in relativity, let alone "unfixable". Don't waster your time on something you have no talent for. Pick a different hobby. > He hoisted himself with his own petard. Because I use his own words to prove his theory leads to a contradiction. You'll never do that, it's a waste of time. The only possibility of contradicting relativity is my experiment. OTOH any internal contradiction in relativity would imply an internal contradiction within Euclidean geometry. If this is what you claim, just say so. > I've had some crackpot skeptics try to tell me things like "Einstein didn't mean what he wrote" or "it's been tinkered with so much since he wrote it, it isn't even his anymore". In a peer-reviewed format, I would include the direct quotes and their source. That makes no difference. His original paper is as good as it was in 1905 and is also equivalent to the relativity theory as typically presented in textbooks today. > For this bunch here, you can find all the source material on the internet. Just search for his books in pdf format. This is what to look for, as I paraphrase it. > Before Einstein would talk about relativity, he had words about measurement. Each book has a slightly different emphasis, but none refute any of the others, so it is safe to assume they are all attributes. He starts with the definition of a direct measurement. It is simply placing rigid measuring rods end to end to match the ends of the distance being measured. The distance is then found by counting the rods (and fractions thereof). Nothing earthshattering there. But there is nothing relative about it either. The interval, the measuring rods and the observer are all stationary relative to each other. In order to observe any relativistic effects, the distance must be in a relatively moving frame and the observer and his measuring rods are in the relatively stationary frame. And then, the size of the effect depends on the relative velocity. Einstein describes this situation as an indirect measurement. The test for whether or not an indirect measurement is valid is whether or not it gets the same measurement as a direct measurement. (That's why we allowed the non-relative definition). All in all, reasonable propositions. But then he goes into his gedanken experiments. And all of them, as well as every experiment ever performed at fast enough relative velocity, predict that the length measurement will be contracted. A contracted measurement is by definition smaller than the direct measurement. Einstein ignored his own protocol, preferring to believe that the math had to be right, and spacetime had to conform to his expectations. He didn't "ignore" anything. He simply stated certain assumptions and examined their consequences. > You could say it's just my opinion that this is a contradiction. There is no contradiction there. The theory only described certain relationships between certain quantities. > Consider this. All the main points of Newtonian physics are low-speed approximations of their relativistic counterparts. Except the measurement standard, which is indeed a low-speed approximation. Einstein used it because it had worked that way for hundreds of years, because before relativity, all measurements were made in quasistatic frames. This is the wrong way to use the term "quasistatic". > Frames whose relative velocity was so small that the relativistic correction factor was unity. As a rule of thumb, if v = c sin(tilt), the quasistatic range of velocity is basically sin(tilt) ≈ tilt. Einstein used a quasistatic protocol to analyze relativistic events. Since a quasistatic protocol is only valid for small velocities, any relativistic predictions based on this protocol are suspect. Not even wrong. > The coup de grace is identifying the relativistic version of the protocol. It turns out that vector spaces come equipped with a protocol for determining how much two arbitrary vectors have in parallel. This is not even a properly formed sentence. > This operation is the Euclidean dot product. Geometrically, the dot product is the product of the magnitudes of two arbitrary vectors with the cosine of the angle between them. Normally, we would start with two arbitrary vectors, and use the Law of Cosines to find the angle. Algebraically, we could just dot multiply the elements of the two vectors. But in this application, one of the vectors is a reference unit in the static frame. The other vector is the unknown in the moving frame. Gobbledygook. -- Jan
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