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Re: The Helical Path Paradox

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On 18-Dec-23 11:13 am, patdolan wrote:
> On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 1:20:04 PM UTC-8, patdolan wrote:
>> On Wednesday, December 13, 2023 at 12:51:44 AM UTC-8, Sylvia Else
>> wrote:
>>> On 12-Dec-23 5:19 pm, patdolan wrote:
>>>> Proxima Centauri is 4.2 light-years away from Big Ben. Two
>>>> distant observers A and B are racing past Proxima Centauri on
>>>> their way to Big Ben at .867c relative to the Big Ben--Proxima
>>>> Centauri frame of reference. For these two observers Proxima
>>>> Centauri and Big Ben are only 2.1 light-years apart due to
>>>> Lorentz contraction. Both observers also note that the little
>>>> hand of Big Ben rotates only 365.25 times per year of their
>>>> proper time instead of 730.5 rotations, due to Lorentz time
>>>> dilation. Now this slowing of Big Ben is not some illusion or
>>>> artifact of speed. SR assures us that Big Ben REALLY IS RUNNING
>>>> SLOWER in their frame of reference.
>>>> 
>>>> Just as observer A passes Proxima Centauri he begins to count
>>>> the 365.25 x 2.1 = 767 turns in the helical path of light
>>>> emanating from the tip of Big Ben's little hand, which lie
>>>> between Big Ben and Proxima Centauri at any given moment in
>>>> that frame of reference. He also counts the 2.42 x 365.25 = 884
>>>> additional turns that Big Ben produces during the rest of his
>>>> 2.42 year journey to Big Ben, for a total of 1651 turns during
>>>> the entire trip.
>>> The observer has to consider where Big Ben was in his frame when
>>> the light he's just seeing set out. Big Ben is now 2.1 light
>>> years away in his frame, but it is moving, and the light has
>>> taken some time to arrive, so the light he's just seen must have
>>> left Big Ben when it was more than 2.1 light years away.
>>> 
>>> If we let the distance away that Big Ben was when the light
>>> departed be d, we can see that the time that Big Ben took to get
>>> from distance d to its present position of 2.1 light years must
>>> equal the time it took for the light to get from distance d to
>>> the observer. That is:
>>> 
>>> (d - 2.1) / v = d / c
>>> 
>>> where v = is 0.867c, and c = 1.
>>> 
>>> (d - 2.1) / 0.867 = d / 1
>>> 
>>> d - 2.1 = 0.867 * d
>>> 
>>> d * (1 - 0.867) = 2.1
>>> 
>>> d = 2.1 / ( 1 - 0.867)
>>> 
>>> d = 15.79
>>> 
>>> So in the observer's frame the light has taken 15.79 years to
>>> arrive, and there are many more than 2.1 years worth of rotations
>>> between Big Ben and the observer.
>>> 
>>> Sylvia.
>> In his latest post to this thread Paul has challenged me to find
>> any absurdities in his calculations, of which I'm sure there are
>> many. But at present I am concentrating on an absurdity that I
>> found in Sylvia's brilliant derivation above. And it reminds me to
>> remind you all of the first rule of relativism, which is: whatever
>> conclusion you reach while employing the principle of special
>> relativity, there will always be a contradiction associated with
>> that conclusion--all you have to do is look for it long enough.
>> 
>> Back to Sylvia's derivation of d, which represents the distance at
>> which the first light has to leave the tip of Big Ben's little hand
>> in order to make a timely rendezvous with the distant observer A at
>> Proxima Centauri. The reader will recall that the distant observer
>> and the light from BB race towards each other for a meetup at
>> Proxima Centauri. This meetup signals the start of the helical turn
>> counting by the distant observer. The light from BB travels at c
>> whilst the distant observer travels at 0.867c. As you can read
>> above, Sylvia brilliantly calculates that the first particle of
>> light that will eventually meetup with the distant observer will
>> have to emanate from Big Ben no less than 15.79 light years prior
>> to the meetup. This brilliant solution exactly accounts for the
>> stacking up of helical turns in the gap between Big Ben ( the earth
>> ) and Proxima Centauri, such that 6651 helical turns ( the solution
>> yielded by the relativistic doppler formula ) will be measured by
>> the observer in the time it takes for him to traverse the distance
>> between Proxima and the clock face of Ben.
>> 
>> Here is the absurdity. The guy who just installed the radio
>> telescope on the top of Big Ben knows that he can send a signal,
>> bounce it off of Proxima Centauri and have it return to him in just
>> 8.4 years. In Sylvia's world that signal won't even arrive at
>> Proxima until 15.8 years have passed. So Albert requires that we
>> now entertain the absurdity of two beams of light simultaneously
>> launched from BB towards the same target Proxima Centauri; one of
>> the beams completes a round trip [ 15.8 - 8.4 = ] 7.4 years before
>> the other beam even arrives at PC.

Now you're adding periods of time from different frames. I'd have 
thought even you would know that you cannot meaningfully do that.

Further, the 15.8 years is in the frame of the observer, not the frame 
of the radio telescope.

How many times do you expect people to disentangle your mistakes before 
you'll accept that you do not know what you are doing?

Sylvia.

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The Helical Path Paradox patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-12-11 22:19 -0800
  Re: The Helical Path Paradox patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-12-12 11:28 -0800
    Re: The Helical Path Paradox patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-12-12 17:55 -0800
  Re: The Helical Path Paradox Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-12-13 19:51 +1100
    Re: The Helical Path Paradox patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-12-13 05:12 -0800
      Re: The Helical Path Paradox Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-12-14 08:40 +1100
    Re: The Helical Path Paradox Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-12-13 05:19 -0800
    Re: The Helical Path Paradox Ryker Habibulaev Balanda <enaa@brdaaeea.ye> - 2023-12-13 13:32 +0000
    Re: The Helical Path Paradox Richard Hachel <r.hachel@frite.fr> - 2023-12-13 16:03 +0000
      Re: The Helical Path Paradox patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-12-13 09:50 -0800
      Re: The Helical Path Paradox Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-12-14 08:42 +1100
        Re: The Helical Path Paradox Richard Hachel <r.hachel@frite.fr> - 2023-12-13 22:32 +0000
        Re: The Helical Path Paradox patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-12-13 16:22 -0800
          Re: The Helical Path Paradox Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-12-14 11:30 +1100
            Re: The Helical Path Paradox patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-12-13 16:52 -0800
              Re: The Helical Path Paradox Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-12-14 11:56 +1100
            Re: The Helical Path Paradox Richard Hachel <r.hachel@frite.fr> - 2023-12-14 00:55 +0000
              Re: The Helical Path Paradox Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-12-14 12:02 +1100
                Re: The Helical Path Paradox Richard Hachel <r.hachel@frite.fr> - 2023-12-14 01:27 +0000
                Re: The Helical Path Paradox Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-12-14 12:58 +1100
                Re: The Helical Path Paradox Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> - 2023-12-14 13:56 +0100
                Re: The Helical Path Paradox Richard Hachel <r.hachel@frite.fr> - 2023-12-14 14:45 +0000
                Re: The Helical Path Paradox Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> - 2023-12-14 18:17 +0100
                Re: The Helical Path Paradox patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-12-14 10:03 -0800
            Re: The Helical Path Paradox Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-12-13 17:00 -0800
    Re: The Helical Path Paradox patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-12-14 12:07 -0800
      Re: The Helical Path Paradox patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-12-14 12:49 -0800
      Re: The Helical Path Paradox Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-12-15 11:10 +1100
        Re: The Helical Path Paradox patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-12-14 19:21 -0800
        Re: The Helical Path Paradox patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-12-14 19:23 -0800
        Re: The Helical Path Paradox patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-12-14 19:33 -0800
          Re: The Helical Path Paradox Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-12-15 15:07 +1100
            Re: The Helical Path Paradox patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-12-14 20:40 -0800
              Re: The Helical Path Paradox Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-12-15 16:07 +1100
                Re: The Helical Path Paradox patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-12-15 00:26 -0800
                Re: The Helical Path Paradox Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-12-15 19:45 +1100
                Re: The Helical Path Paradox "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2023-12-15 14:45 +0100
                Re: The Helical Path Paradox patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-12-15 12:06 -0800
                Re: The Helical Path Paradox "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2023-12-16 10:24 +0100
                Re: The Helical Path Paradox Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-12-16 01:47 -0800
            Re: The Helical Path Paradox Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-12-15 13:37 -0800
    Re: The Helical Path Paradox patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-12-16 13:20 -0800
      Re: The Helical Path Paradox patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-12-17 16:13 -0800
        Re: The Helical Path Paradox Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-12-18 11:25 +1100
          Re: The Helical Path Paradox patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-12-17 16:48 -0800
            Re: The Helical Path Paradox Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-12-18 13:09 +1100
              Re: The Helical Path Paradox patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-12-17 18:31 -0800
                Re: The Helical Path Paradox Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-12-18 14:14 +1100
                Re: The Helical Path Paradox Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-12-18 06:29 -0800
                Re: The Helical Path Paradox Patrick Dolan <pd8441303@gmail.com> - 2023-12-23 09:56 -0800
                Re: The Helical Path Paradox "pdolan@adsistor.com" <pdolan@adsistor.com> - 2023-12-27 00:02 -0800
                Re: The Helical Path Paradox patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-12-27 00:21 -0800
        Re: The Helical Path Paradox "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2023-12-18 20:43 +0100
    Re: The Helical Path Paradox patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-12-18 06:19 -0800
      Re: The Helical Path Paradox Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-12-19 09:59 +1100
        Re: The Helical Path Paradox patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-12-18 15:28 -0800
          Re: The Helical Path Paradox Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-12-19 11:01 +1100
            Re: The Helical Path Paradox Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2023-12-19 10:28 +0000
              Re: The Helical Path Paradox Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-12-19 21:37 +1100
          Re: The Helical Path Paradox Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-12-19 01:03 -0500
        Re: The Helical Path Paradox Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-12-18 21:17 -0800
  Re: The Helical Path Paradox "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2023-12-15 14:45 +0100
    Re: The Helical Path Paradox patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-12-15 11:28 -0800
      Re: The Helical Path Paradox "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2023-12-16 10:24 +0100
  Re: The Helical Path Paradox Tom Roberts <tjoberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2023-12-22 23:18 -0600
    Re: The Helical Path Paradox Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-12-23 01:31 -0800
    Re: The Helical Path Paradox Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2023-12-23 16:03 +0000

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