Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #625726

Re: The Helical Path Paradox

From	Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid>
Newsgroups	sci.physics.relativity
Subject	Re: The Helical Path Paradox
Date	2023-12-14 12:58 +1100
Message-ID	<ktv5pbFoahU1@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References	(4 earlier) <32bd1522-7c0a-491a-97e8-8c81dc1c4218n@googlegroups.com> <ktv0keFs8pqU1@mid.individual.net> <5MTEMIQrI20bT3hcQqVx1LJm2mE@jntp> <ktv2g8Fs8pqU3@mid.individual.net> <DSO5GNt5W3dpyDGwL38uILGOYfM@jntp>

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On 14-Dec-23 12:27 pm, Richard Hachel wrote:
> Le 14/12/2023 à 02:02, Sylvia Else a écrit :
>> On 14-Dec-23 11:55 am, Richard Hachel wrote:
>>> Le 14/12/2023 à 01:30, Sylvia Else a écrit :
>>>> On 14-Dec-23 11:22 am, patdolan wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, December 13, 2023 at 1:42:36 PM UTC-8, Sylvia Else 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> On 14-Dec-23 3:03 am, Richard Hachel wrote:
>>>>>>> Le 13/12/2023 à 09:51, Sylvia Else a écrit :
>>>>>>>> On 12-Dec-23 5:19 pm, patdolan wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Proxima Centauri is 4.2 light-years away from Big Ben. Two distant
>>>>>>>>> observers A and B are racing past Proxima Centauri on their way to
>>>>>>>>> Big Ben at .867c relative to the Big Ben--Proxima Centauri 
>>>>>>>>> frame of
>>>>>>>>> reference. For these two observers Proxima Centauri and Big Ben 
>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>> only 2.1 light-years apart due to Lorentz contraction. Both 
>>>>>>>>> observers
>>>>>>>>> also note that the little hand of Big Ben rotates only 365.25 
>>>>>>>>> times
>>>>>>>>> per year of their proper time instead of 730.5 rotations, due to
>>>>>>>>> Lorentz time dilation. Now this slowing of Big Ben is not some
>>>>>>>>> illusion or artifact of speed. SR assures us that Big Ben 
>>>>>>>>> REALLY IS
>>>>>>>>> RUNNING SLOWER in their frame of reference.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Just as observer A passes Proxima Centauri he begins to count the
>>>>>>>>> 365.25 x 2.1 = 767 turns in the helical path of light emanating 
>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>> the tip of Big Ben's little hand, which lie between Big Ben and
>>>>>>>>> Proxima Centauri at any given moment in that frame of 
>>>>>>>>> reference. He
>>>>>>>>> also counts the 2.42 x 365.25 = 884 additional turns that Big Ben
>>>>>>>>> produces during the rest of his 2.42 year journey to Big Ben, 
>>>>>>>>> for a
>>>>>>>>> total of 1651 turns during the entire trip.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is an interesting problem.
>>>>>>> So I will answer it.
>>>>>>> This will change all the relativistic nonsense that I notice on the
>>>>>>> English and French forums in general,
>>>>>>> where absolutely no one understands the theory correctly.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The observer has to consider where Big Ben was in his frame when 
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> light he's just seeing set out. Big Ben is now 2.1 light years 
>>>>>>>> away in
>>>>>>>> his frame, but it is moving, and the light has taken some time to
>>>>>>>> arrive, so the light he's just seen must have left Big Ben when 
>>>>>>>> it was
>>>>>>>> more than 2.1 light years away.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If we let the distance away that Big Ben was when the light 
>>>>>>>> departed
>>>>>>>> be d, we can see that the time that Big Ben took to get from 
>>>>>>>> distance
>>>>>>>> d to its present position of 2.1 light years must equal the time it
>>>>>>>> took for the light to get from distance d to the observer. That is:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (d - 2.1) / v = d / c
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> where v = is 0.867c, and c = 1.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (d - 2.1) / 0.867 = d / 1
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> d - 2.1 = 0.867 * d
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> d * (1 - 0.867) = 2.1
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> d = 2.1 / ( 1 - 0.867)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> d = 15.79
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So in the observer's frame the light has taken 15.79 years to 
>>>>>>>> arrive,
>>>>>>>> and there are many more than 2.1 years worth of rotations 
>>>>>>>> between Big
>>>>>>>> Ben and the observer.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sylvia.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Everything you say seems very interesting, even logical.
>>>>>>> Only, my very dear and remarkable Sylvia, like everyone else, you do
>>>>>>> mathematical physics, but abstractly.
>>>>>>> The universe is not made LIKE THAT.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> R.H.
>>>>>> This thread is about the theory of special relativity. Pat has 
>>>>>> alleged
>>>>>> that it contains a contradiction, because he got the math wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sylvia, I'll brook no tongue-lashing from you about getting the 
>>>>> math wrong. Let's examine the last two lines in your proof:
>>>>>
>>>>> d = 2.1 / ( 1 - 0.867)
>>>>>
>>>>> d = 15.79
>>>>>
>>>>> Now let's change your value for v=0.867c to the non relativistic 
>>>>> value of say v=.00001c.  Now your last line becomes d = 2.1 
>>>>> light-years.  Balderdash!  At non-relativistic velocities d (the 
>>>>> distance between Big Ben and Proxima Centauri) MUST revert to its 
>>>>> non-relativistic distance of 4.2 light-years.  You unknowingly 
>>>>> smuggled Galilean relativity into a special relativity problem.  
>>>>> This is where you went wrong and where I went right.
>>>>
>>>> The 2.1 is the distance between the stars in the observer's frame, 
>>>> and derives from the proper distance between the stars, and their 
>>>> velocity relative to the observer.
>>>>
>>>> You specified the parameters of the scenario, I'm just applying 
>>>> them. If the velocity is not 0.867c, then the distance between stars 
>>>> in the observer's frame is not 2.1 light years. Nothing turns on that.
>>>>
>>>> Sylvia.
>>>
>>> There is a huge misunderstanding in this part of relativistic physics.
>>>
>>> The problem posed here is:
>>> The distance between Proxima Centauri is 4.2 ly.
>>>
>>> A rocket passing near Proxima at speed Vo=0.867c in the Proxima-Earth 
>>> direction
>>>
>>> At this very precise moment, the rocket captain looks through his 
>>> telescope.
>>>
>>> At what distance does he see the earth.
>>>
>>> Yanick Toutain (Newtonian) answers: 4.2 ly.
>>>
>>> Sylvia Else (she is adorable) responds: 1.121 ly and affirms like 
>>> Einstein that there is a contraction of distances.
>>
>> You're just making stuff up. I never said that.
>>
>> Sylvia.
> 
> Exact you said 2.093 ly.
> 
> But is the same approach : contraction of distances.
> And is no true.
> 
> R.H.

The significant context is "At what distance does he see the earth."

I never said that he sees the Earth at 2.1 light years. The closest I 
got to saying anything about the distance at which Earth is seen is in 
my calculation of the distance the light had travelled from the Earth, 
and that number is nothing like 2.1 light years.

Sylvia.

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The Helical Path Paradox patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-12-11 22:19 -0800
  Re: The Helical Path Paradox patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-12-12 11:28 -0800
    Re: The Helical Path Paradox patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-12-12 17:55 -0800
  Re: The Helical Path Paradox Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-12-13 19:51 +1100
    Re: The Helical Path Paradox patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-12-13 05:12 -0800
      Re: The Helical Path Paradox Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-12-14 08:40 +1100
    Re: The Helical Path Paradox Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-12-13 05:19 -0800
    Re: The Helical Path Paradox Ryker Habibulaev Balanda <enaa@brdaaeea.ye> - 2023-12-13 13:32 +0000
    Re: The Helical Path Paradox Richard Hachel <r.hachel@frite.fr> - 2023-12-13 16:03 +0000
      Re: The Helical Path Paradox patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-12-13 09:50 -0800
      Re: The Helical Path Paradox Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-12-14 08:42 +1100
        Re: The Helical Path Paradox Richard Hachel <r.hachel@frite.fr> - 2023-12-13 22:32 +0000
        Re: The Helical Path Paradox patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-12-13 16:22 -0800
          Re: The Helical Path Paradox Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-12-14 11:30 +1100
            Re: The Helical Path Paradox patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-12-13 16:52 -0800
              Re: The Helical Path Paradox Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-12-14 11:56 +1100
            Re: The Helical Path Paradox Richard Hachel <r.hachel@frite.fr> - 2023-12-14 00:55 +0000
              Re: The Helical Path Paradox Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-12-14 12:02 +1100
                Re: The Helical Path Paradox Richard Hachel <r.hachel@frite.fr> - 2023-12-14 01:27 +0000
                Re: The Helical Path Paradox Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-12-14 12:58 +1100
                Re: The Helical Path Paradox Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> - 2023-12-14 13:56 +0100
                Re: The Helical Path Paradox Richard Hachel <r.hachel@frite.fr> - 2023-12-14 14:45 +0000
                Re: The Helical Path Paradox Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> - 2023-12-14 18:17 +0100
                Re: The Helical Path Paradox patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-12-14 10:03 -0800
            Re: The Helical Path Paradox Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-12-13 17:00 -0800
    Re: The Helical Path Paradox patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-12-14 12:07 -0800
      Re: The Helical Path Paradox patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-12-14 12:49 -0800
      Re: The Helical Path Paradox Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-12-15 11:10 +1100
        Re: The Helical Path Paradox patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-12-14 19:21 -0800
        Re: The Helical Path Paradox patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-12-14 19:23 -0800
        Re: The Helical Path Paradox patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-12-14 19:33 -0800
          Re: The Helical Path Paradox Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-12-15 15:07 +1100
            Re: The Helical Path Paradox patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-12-14 20:40 -0800
              Re: The Helical Path Paradox Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-12-15 16:07 +1100
                Re: The Helical Path Paradox patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-12-15 00:26 -0800
                Re: The Helical Path Paradox Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-12-15 19:45 +1100
                Re: The Helical Path Paradox "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2023-12-15 14:45 +0100
                Re: The Helical Path Paradox patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-12-15 12:06 -0800
                Re: The Helical Path Paradox "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2023-12-16 10:24 +0100
                Re: The Helical Path Paradox Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-12-16 01:47 -0800
            Re: The Helical Path Paradox Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-12-15 13:37 -0800
    Re: The Helical Path Paradox patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-12-16 13:20 -0800
      Re: The Helical Path Paradox patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-12-17 16:13 -0800
        Re: The Helical Path Paradox Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-12-18 11:25 +1100
          Re: The Helical Path Paradox patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-12-17 16:48 -0800
            Re: The Helical Path Paradox Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-12-18 13:09 +1100
              Re: The Helical Path Paradox patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-12-17 18:31 -0800
                Re: The Helical Path Paradox Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-12-18 14:14 +1100
                Re: The Helical Path Paradox Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-12-18 06:29 -0800
        Re: The Helical Path Paradox "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2023-12-18 20:43 +0100
    Re: The Helical Path Paradox patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-12-18 06:19 -0800
      Re: The Helical Path Paradox Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-12-19 09:59 +1100
        Re: The Helical Path Paradox patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-12-18 15:28 -0800
          Re: The Helical Path Paradox Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-12-19 11:01 +1100
            Re: The Helical Path Paradox Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2023-12-19 10:28 +0000
              Re: The Helical Path Paradox Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-12-19 21:37 +1100
          Re: The Helical Path Paradox Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-12-19 01:03 -0500
        Re: The Helical Path Paradox Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-12-18 21:17 -0800
  Re: The Helical Path Paradox "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2023-12-15 14:45 +0100
    Re: The Helical Path Paradox patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-12-15 11:28 -0800
      Re: The Helical Path Paradox "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2023-12-16 10:24 +0100

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