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Re: Black holes don't exist because there is a universal Gamma speed limit

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On 3/17/2023 9:09 PM, JanPB wrote:
> On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 6:26:01 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 1:33:30 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
>>> On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 10:41:07 AM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 11:40:47 AM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 11:28:58 AM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 11:18:00 AM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 10:50:24 AM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 10:20:45 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 7:59:17 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 7:52:09 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 5:57:41 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 3:23:49 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 2:58:20 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just as there is a speed limit there is a gravitational
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> acceleration limit. As GR's increasing speeds(accelerations)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still must obey fall below light speed..
>>>>>>>>>>>>> They do. The speeds you mention are merely coordinate speeds which
>>>>>>>>>>>>> can be arbitrary, in general.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Speed is speed jan and there is a speed limit defined by Gamma.
>>>>>>>>>>> False.
>>>>>>>>>> Gamma demonstrates the speed limit the atom must obey.
>>>>>>>>>> There are no BHs.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You won't get anywhere with this by just making stuff up.
>>>>>>>>>>>> BHs event horizons have always been know as the place
>>>>>>>>>>>> where falling reaches the speed of light
>>>>>>>>>>> False. In the Schwarzschild coordinates the falling speed
>>>>>>>>>>> tends to zero, not the speed of light.
>>>>>>>>>> Then light speed at zero hangs on the event horizon jan?
>>>>>>>>>>>> and goes beyond
>>>>>>>>>>>> inside a BH by more gravity there.
>>>>>>>>>>> Again, false. The speed always remains less than of light,
>>>>>>>>>>> that's what it means for the infalling trajectory to be timelike.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Just get off this horse, it won't get you anywhere anymore.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>>>> Jan
>>>>>>>>>> Is it false jan that Einstein never believed in the BH?
>>>>>>>>>> He didn't.
>>>>>>>>> Done.
>>>>>>>> That is what they all say where they have been undone...
>>>>>>>> There is no BH in reality.
>>>>>>> Again, you are changing the subject now.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> First of all, many (most?) physicists also think BH do not exist in
>>>>>> Andthere is proof that the theory is not real.
>>>>>>> the sense of a boundary of existence at a finite distance or finite
>>>>>>> time. This is most likely a consequence of the fact that GR
>>>>>>> ignores quantum phenomena.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But again most(?) physicists think horizons do exist more or less
>>>>>>> as in the GR model. We'll see [pun intended].
>>>>>>>> It is just an overshoot in the
>>>>>>>> theory of maximum strength. Gravity strength has
>>>>>>>> a limit instead... by Gamma...
>>>>>>>> We are seeing those super mass look a likes....
>>>>>>>> BHs have already lost.
>>>>>>> You are again trying to smash open an open door.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>> Jan
>>>>>> Gamma shows the universal speed limit that gravity and acceleration must obey.
>>>>>
>>>>> But coordinate speeds are not subject to this limitation.
>>>>
>>>> That is where you are wrong.
>>> No, I am 100% correct. And I gave you a proof already: when you turn
>>> your head 90 degrees to the left, the Andromeda galaxy moves 90
>>> degrees to the right at a coordinate speed far exceeding that of light.
>>>
>>> Coorfdinate speeds are merely accounting devices, they don't have
>>> immediate physical meaning (they do have a meaning after processing
>>> the data but they don't have a meaning as bare numbers which can
>>> be ARBITRARY).
>> Falling at the speed of light is real in BH theory jan.
> 
> It's false. I have shown you the actual formulas.
> 
>> That is why BHs are wrong.
> 
> If it's wrong, it's not for that reason. The "speed of light" crossing
> of the horizon is simply a measurement made by a distant observer
> on the outside using certain types of measuring devices. The actual
> object that's falling in does so along a trajectory that's always timelike.
> This means it never goes faster than the speed of light.

I wouldn't go so far as to state that the same rules of nature that 
apply to the general universe remain unquestionably unaltered inside
an event horizon.

There is a goodly history of cogent discussions related to that topic.
Unfortunately we do not have the sort of readership that would lend
itself to sentient discussions about this so it is probably best I
stop right here. But I will mention that Wheeler had a discussion
(can probably be found on YouTube) clearly indicating that the rules
of nature have not "always been." If there was a beginning then they
are not permanently fixed.

That's enough for me to recognize that there are a myriad of
legitimate possibilities for unusual circumstances without
understanding enough about such conditions to take a particular
stance in any specific example.

There, I think I've incorporated enough hedges to keep me out of
any serious trouble. :-) Still, sane readers can decipher the above
enough to make it useful.

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Thread

Black holes don't exist because there is a universal Gamma speed limit "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2023-03-15 14:58 -0700
  Re: Black holes don't exist because there is a universal Gamma speed limit Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-03-15 15:07 -0700
    Re: Black holes don't exist because there is a universal Gamma speed limit "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2023-03-15 15:16 -0700
  Re: Black holes don't exist because there is a universal Gamma speed limit JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2023-03-15 15:23 -0700
    Re: Black holes don't exist because there is a universal Gamma speed limit "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2023-03-15 17:57 -0700
      Re: Black holes don't exist because there is a universal Gamma speed limit JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2023-03-15 19:52 -0700
        Re: Black holes don't exist because there is a universal Gamma speed limit "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2023-03-15 19:59 -0700
          Re: Black holes don't exist because there is a universal Gamma speed limit JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2023-03-15 22:20 -0700
            Re: Black holes don't exist because there is a universal Gamma speed limit "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2023-03-16 10:50 -0700
              Re: Black holes don't exist because there is a universal Gamma speed limit JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2023-03-16 11:17 -0700
                Re: Black holes don't exist because there is a universal Gamma speed limit "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2023-03-16 11:28 -0700
                Re: Black holes don't exist because there is a universal Gamma speed limit JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2023-03-16 11:40 -0700
                Re: Black holes don't exist because there is a universal Gamma speed limit Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-03-16 11:42 -0700
                Re: Black holes don't exist because there is a universal Gamma speed limit "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2023-03-17 10:41 -0700
                Re: Black holes don't exist because there is a universal Gamma speed limit JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2023-03-17 13:33 -0700
                Re: Black holes don't exist because there is a universal Gamma speed limit Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-03-17 13:50 -0700
                Re: Black holes don't exist because there is a universal Gamma speed limit "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2023-03-17 18:25 -0700
                Re: Black holes don't exist because there is a universal Gamma speed limit JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2023-03-17 19:09 -0700
                Re: Black holes don't exist because there is a universal Gamma speed limit whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-03-17 21:45 -0500
                Re: Black holes don't exist because there is a universal Gamma speed limit JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2023-03-17 20:34 -0700
                Re: Black holes don't exist because there is a universal Gamma speed limit whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-03-18 10:30 -0500
                Re: Black holes don't exist because there is a universal Gamma speed limit "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2023-03-18 10:00 -0700
                Re: Black holes don't exist because there is a universal Gamma speed limit JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2023-03-18 10:16 -0700
                Re: Black holes don't exist because there is a universal Gamma speed limit "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2023-03-18 10:29 -0700
                Re: Black holes don't exist because there is a universal Gamma speed limit JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2023-03-18 11:23 -0700
                Re: Black holes don't exist because there is a universal Gamma speed limit "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2023-03-18 11:47 -0700
                Re: Black holes don't exist because there is a universal Gamma speed limit JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2023-03-18 18:43 -0700
                Re: Black holes don't exist because there is a universal Gamma speed limit Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-03-18 23:16 -0700
                Re: Black holes don't exist because there is a universal Gamma speed limit "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2023-03-19 09:59 -0700
                Re: Black holes don't exist because there is a universal Gamma speed limit JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2023-03-20 10:31 -0700
                Re: Black holes don't exist because there is a universal Gamma speed limit "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2023-03-20 16:54 -0700
                Re: Black holes don't exist because there is a universal Gamma speed limit JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2023-03-20 18:44 -0700
                Re: Black holes don't exist because there is a universal Gamma speed limit "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2023-03-20 19:39 -0700
                Re: Black holes don't exist because there is a universal Gamma speed limit JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2023-03-20 20:33 -0700
                Re: Black holes don't exist because there is a universal Gamma speed limit "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2023-03-21 09:56 -0700
                Re: Black holes don't exist because there is a universal Gamma speed limit JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2023-03-21 14:44 -0700
                Re: Black holes don't exist because there is a universal Gamma speed limit "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2023-03-21 15:07 -0700
                Re: Black holes don't exist because there is a universal Gamma speed limit JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2023-03-21 20:58 -0700
                Re: Black holes don't exist because there is a universal Gamma speed limit Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-03-17 22:39 -0700
                Re: Black holes don't exist because there is a universal Gamma speed limit Tom Roberts <tjoberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2023-03-18 12:19 -0500
                Re: Black holes don't exist because there is a universal Gamma speed limit Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-03-16 11:38 -0700
    Re: Black holes don't exist because there is a universal Gamma speed limit Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-03-15 22:44 -0700

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