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Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the electrodynamics of moving bodies '

From The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups sci.physics.relativity
Subject Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the electrodynamics of moving bodies '
Date 2022-04-30 16:24 -0700
Organization The Starmaker Organization
Message-ID <626DC530.5277@ix.netcom.com> (permalink)
References <jd3v0lFk915U1@mid.individual.net>

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Thomas Heger wrote:
> 
> Hi NG
> 
> Einstein based his theory, commonly called 'SRT', on a strange concept
> about time.
> 
> He wrote, that time would be based on synchronization of clocks.

He was thinking then of synchronization of clocks at the Train Stations.

The clock einstein used then are known as coo-coo clocks. Cuckoo clocks made in Germany.


If you want to recreate einstein's
synchronization of clocks
you first need to get
2 coo-coo clocks...
from Germany
the Fatherland.

Now, I understand
yous people out there
might find it a
strange concept
that einstein would
synchronization coo-coo clocks..
but can you name
the type of
clocks that einstein used to
synchronize clocks, if no a
coo-coo clocks???

No, of couse not.
You haven't done your homework.

Yous
don't
bother
even
to
think
for
yourselves.






> 
> That is wrong, because the concept of time is actually based on
> observations of events, that have a certain frequency. Time is also
> assumed to flow only in one direction, which is from past towards future.
> 
> Another important feature of time is the fact, that time is 'relative',
> hence a local measure and we cannot 'move' our time from here to
> somewhere else.
> 
> Therefore, we measure our own local time here on Earth and elsewhere
> they do the same, but with a time local there.
> 
> This is only not a problem, as long as we do not attempt to synchronize
> our clocks with other clocks in cosmological distances. That's why we
> have 'Earth time' (Earth named 'A' here) and on a distant planet (named
> 'B') they have a different time with different clocks. Those clocks tick
> at a different rate and do not run necessarily into the same direction.
> 
> Also certain frequencies are unknown there (like e.g. our day or year)
> and also our 'anchor points' in time (like 'Birth of Jesus').
> 
> A clock is now designed to show the time local to the place, for which
> that clock was built.
> 
> To synchronize two clocks from different planets is therefore quite
> difficult. But we could build clocks, that show the local time of a
> distant location here, while at the other end of the distance to that
> distant planet, they can do the same and build a clock system, which is
> synchronized to Earth' clocks.
> 
> Now: how would you like to define 'synchronic'?
> 
> I would think, that there are at least two important effects, which I
> would like to eliminate. The first effect would be caused by the run
> time of synchronization signals. The second effect would be caused by
> relative motion and what is commonly called 'Doppler effect'.
> 
> Other possible effects can eventually be caused by gravity or by changes
> of the media density in the realms, through which the signals travel.
> Other effects could be caused by other reasons eventually, which we have
> not yet taken into considerations, like changes of the speed of the
> signal or invisible fields.
> 
> Now we also want synchronization to become symmetric: if clocks at A are
> synchronized with clocks at B, these clocks at B are also synchronized
> to the clocks mentioned, which are located at A.
> How that is done in particular, that is not important here, but we can
> assume, that we achieved it and have such clock systems here at A and
> remotely at B.
> 
> Therefore, a signal from here starting at a set zero-time value 00:00
> will arrive at 10:00 at B and a signal from there, which started at
> 00:00 will arrive here at 10:00. Such clocks cannot be kept in
> synchronicity to our usual clocks, because that system needs to
> compensate certain effects, which do not occur here on Earth.
> 
> Now we can compare that system, to what Einstein actually wanted.
> 
> To do so, I quote certain parts from Einstein's On the electrodynamics
> of moving bodies '.
> 
> 1)
> > "We have to take into account that all our judgments in which time plays a part are always judgments of simultaneous events. If, for instance, I say, "That train arrives here at 7 o'clock," I mean something like this: "The pointing of the small hand of my watch to 7 and the arrival of the train are simultaneous events." "
> 
> I would say, that synchronization is not at all the foundation of our
> concept of time. The idea of time was based on the assumption, that
> certain natural frequencies have a certain unchangeable value, that we
> can simply count certain events and get a valid measure for time.
> Whether the same effect would occur on distant planets or not, that is
> usually not our concern, if we think about time.
> 
> The next serious problem with Einstein's definition of time is, that the
> small hand of a clock only shows hours, while time intervals longer than
> a day are also time.
> (The mentioned ownership of that clock is something we can safely ignore.)
> 
> 2)
> > "It might appear possible to overcome all the di?culties attending the de?nition of "time" by substituting "the position of the small hand of my watch for "time." "
> 
> I do not agree, because we cannot base the definition of time on clocks,
> because clocks are based on the definition of time.
> 
> Therefore, clocks are not an option, if we try to define, what time is
> and how long certain intervals are. The small hand of Einstein's clock
> is also way too restrictive for a definition.
> 
> 3)
> > "We might, of course, content ourselves with time values determined by an observer stationed together with the watch at the origin of the co-ordinates, and co-ordinating the corresponding positions of the hands with light signals, given out by every event to be timed, and reaching him through empty space."
> 
> The problem here is, of course, the introduction of an observer and of
> coordinate system.
> The observer seems to be a being with some sort of intelligence, who
> does some calculations. But in natural science we don't want to require
> human interactions with the environment, to declare something to be
> real. Therefore, nature is not assumed to be altered by observations,
> hence an observer is superfluous.
> 
> Coordinate systems are human brainchilds and have no real counterpart in
> nature.
> 
> To require unnatural entities from nature is violating important
> principles of natural science.
> 
> But physicists like to calculate something and therefore need certain
> models and related entities. But such entities cannot be treated as
> requirements for natural processes, because they are only introduced for
> what nature is not supposed to do.
> 
> IOW: nature performs in real what we model in our attempts to figure out
> certain events in the future. That's why natural processes are real and
> function different to models.
> 
> 4)
> > "But this co-ordination has the disadvantage that it is not independent of the standpoint of the observer with the watch or clock, as we know from experience."
> 
> Here I would see a problem in the word 'disadvantage', which is a
> judgment based on our own utility concepts, that we cannot introduce
> into nature.
> 
> 5)
> > "We arrive at a much more practical determination along the following line of thought.
> 
> > If at the point A of space there is a clock, an observer at A can determine the time values of events in the immediate proximity of A by finding the positions of the hands which are simultaneous with these events"
> 
> Time should be understood as a natural phenomenon, hence is not based on
> human intervention or measuring devices. This should be separated from
> time-measures, which are based on such devices, while time per se is not.
> 
> A clock is a tiny machine and therefore something, that is created. Such
> devices are usually not found in nature.
> 
> TH

-- 
The Starmaker -- To question the unquestionable, ask the unaskable,
 to think the unthinkable, mention the unmentionable, say the unsayable, and challenge
 the unchallengeable.

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Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the electrodynamics of moving bodies ' Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-30 07:16 +0200
  Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the electrodynamics of moving bodies ' Richard Hertz <hertz778@gmail.com> - 2022-04-29 23:19 -0700
    Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies ' Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-04-30 15:08 +0000
      Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies ' Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-04-30 09:10 -0700
      Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies ' Richard Hertz <hertz778@gmail.com> - 2022-04-30 09:31 -0700
        Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies ' Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-04-30 16:46 +0000
          Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies ' Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-04-30 09:50 -0700
        Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies ' Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-04-30 19:28 +0000
        Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies ' Richard Hertz <hertz778@gmail.com> - 2022-05-19 11:34 -0700
          Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies ' Russell Eaton <deliveredonline@gmail.com> - 2022-05-20 03:42 -0700
          Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies ' Russell Eaton <deliveredonline@gmail.com> - 2022-05-20 03:53 -0700
            Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies ' Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2022-05-20 10:43 -0400
              Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies ' Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-05-20 08:10 -0700
              Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies ' Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2022-05-20 08:11 -0700
                Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies ' Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-05-20 08:31 -0700
                Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies ' Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2022-05-20 13:17 -0400
                Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies ' Richard Hertz <hertz778@gmail.com> - 2022-05-20 10:27 -0700
                Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies ' Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2022-05-20 14:08 -0400
                Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies ' Richard Hertz <hertz778@gmail.com> - 2022-05-20 11:21 -0700
                Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies ' Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2022-05-20 16:18 -0400
                Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies ' Richard Hertz <hertz778@gmail.com> - 2022-05-20 13:40 -0700
                Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies ' Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-05-20 14:16 -0700
                Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies ' Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-05-20 11:23 -0700
                Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's 'On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies ' nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2022-05-20 23:42 +0200
                Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's 'On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies ' Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-05-20 21:27 -0700
                Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's 'On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies ' RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2022-06-01 14:29 -0700
                Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's 'On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies ' nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2022-06-02 10:23 +0200
                Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's 'On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies ' Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2022-06-02 14:14 +0300
                Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's 'On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies ' nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2022-06-02 13:54 +0200
                Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's 'On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies ' Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-06-02 05:29 -0700
                Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's 'On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies ' nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2022-06-02 17:49 +0200
                Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's 'On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies ' Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-06-02 08:53 -0700
                Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's 'On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies ' Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2022-06-02 18:30 +0300
                Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's 'On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies ' nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2022-06-02 23:05 +0200
                Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies ' Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-05-20 11:26 -0700
                Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies ' Richard Hertz <hertz778@gmail.com> - 2022-05-20 09:05 -0700
            Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies ' Richard Hertz <hertz778@gmail.com> - 2022-05-20 07:50 -0700
              Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies ' whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2022-05-20 13:10 -0500
                Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies ' Richard Hertz <hertz778@gmail.com> - 2022-05-20 11:36 -0700
                Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies ' whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2022-05-20 14:19 -0500
                Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies ' Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-05-28 07:07 +0200
            Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies ' RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2022-05-28 17:48 -0700
              Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies ' Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2022-06-03 05:31 -0700
            Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies ' Hannu Poropudas <haporopuda@gmail.com> - 2022-06-03 01:21 -0700
              Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies ' Hannu Poropudas <haporopuda@gmail.com> - 2022-06-07 01:19 -0700
    Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the electrodynamics of moving bodies ' JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-04-30 19:11 -0700
      Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the electrodynamics of moving bodies ' Jonas Tanaka <wrbh@ifzgqznn.zq> - 2022-05-01 20:55 +0000
  Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the electrodynamics of moving bodies ' Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2022-04-30 22:37 +1000
  Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the electrodynamics of moving bodies ' Python <python@example.invalid> - 2022-04-30 14:39 +0200
    Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the electrodynamics of moving bodies ' Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-04-30 06:07 -0700
  Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the electrodynamics of moving bodies ' Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-04-30 15:08 +0000
    Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the electrodynamics of moving bodies ' Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-04-30 09:06 -0700
    Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the electrodynamics of moving bodies ' Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-04-30 19:31 +0000
      Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the electrodynamics of moving bodies ' Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-05-01 09:36 +0200
        Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the electrodynamics of moving bodies ' Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-05-01 12:16 +0000
          Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the electrodynamics of moving bodies ' Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-05-01 12:19 +0000
            Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the electrodynamics of moving bodies ' Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-05-01 10:37 -0700
              Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies ' Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-05-01 18:32 +0000
            Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the electrodynamics of moving bodies ' Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-05-02 07:54 +0200
              Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the electrodynamics of moving bodies ' Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-05-02 11:16 +0000
                Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the electrodynamics of moving bodies ' Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2022-05-02 14:30 +0000
                Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the electrodynamics of moving bodies ' Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-05-07 08:50 +0200
    Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the electrodynamics of moving bodies ' Python <python@example.invalid> - 2022-04-30 23:57 +0200
      Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the electrodynamics of moving bodies ' Richard Hertz <hertz778@gmail.com> - 2022-04-30 15:15 -0700
      Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the electrodynamics of moving bodies ' Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-04-30 21:45 -0700
    Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the electrodynamics of moving bodies ' Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-30 20:41 +0200
  Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the electrodynamics of moving bodies ' Richard Hertz <hertz778@gmail.com> - 2022-04-30 12:22 -0700
  Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the electrodynamics of moving bodies ' Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-04-30 11:11 -0700
  Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the electrodynamics of moving bodies ' Colin Ohba <owfs@gcftghsf.tk> - 2022-04-30 20:43 +0000
  Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the electrodynamics of moving bodies ' The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2022-04-30 16:24 -0700
  Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the electrodynamics of moving bodies ' Richard Hertz <hertz778@gmail.com> - 2022-04-30 10:49 -0700
    Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies ' Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-04-30 19:28 +0000
  Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the electrodynamics of moving bodies ' Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2022-04-30 14:06 -0700
  Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the electrodynamics of moving bodies ' Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2022-04-30 13:30 -0700
  Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the electrodynamics of moving bodies ' JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-04-30 19:14 -0700
    Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the electrodynamics of moving bodies ' Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-04-30 21:47 -0700
    Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the electrodynamics of moving bodies ' Job Chikamatsu <fkpy@ekyzcfxq.wn> - 2022-05-01 09:56 +0000
    Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the electrodynamics of moving bodies ' Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-05-19 07:40 +0200
      Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the electrodynamics of moving bodies ' JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-05-19 02:09 -0700
        Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the electrodynamics of moving bodies ' Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-05-21 10:02 +0200

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