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| From | phoenix <j63840576@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.theory, sci.logic, sci.math, comp.ai.philosophy |
| Subject | Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis |
| Date | 2026-05-10 14:12 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <n6c757F6pu3U1@mid.individual.net> (permalink) |
| References | (26 earlier) <10tl5ke$31ang$3@dont-email.me> <10tl6te$32hjj$1@dont-email.me> <10tlanh$33pkb$3@dont-email.me> <10tlbuh$34cgh$1@dont-email.me> <10tqogs$k7bs$3@dont-email.me> |
Cross-posted to 4 groups.
dart200 wrote: > On 5/8/26 12:01 PM, olcott wrote: >> On 5/8/2026 1:40 PM, dart200 wrote: >>> On 5/8/26 10:35 AM, olcott wrote: >>>> On 5/8/2026 12:13 PM, dart200 wrote: >>>>> On 5/8/26 9:58 AM, olcott wrote: >>>>>> On 5/8/2026 11:06 AM, dart200 wrote: >>>>>>> On 5/8/26 12:19 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>> On 07/05/2026 12:00, dart200 wrote: >>>>>>>>> On 5/7/26 12:18 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 06/05/2026 22:40, dart200 wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On 5/6/26 12:55 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 05/05/2026 12:28, dart200 wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/5/26 1:25 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 04/05/2026 10:53, dart200 wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/3/26 11:15 PM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 03/05/2026 12:09, dart200 wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/3/26 12:53 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 02/05/2026 23:39, dart200 wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/19/26 10:58 AM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/19/26 1:21 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/19/2026 3:59 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 18/04/2026 15:58, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unknown truths are not elements of the body of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> knowledge is a semantic tautology. Did you think >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that things that are unknown are known? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, but that measn that for some sentences X >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> True(X) is unknown and there >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is no method to find out. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know about philosophers but mathematicians >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and logicians don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> find it interesting if all you can say that all >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> knowledge is knowable >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and everything else is not. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ross Finlayson, seemed to endlessly hedge on whether >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or not the truth value of the Goldbach conjecture was >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> known. He seemed to think that there are alternative >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> analytical frameworks that make the question of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whether >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or not its truth value is known an ambiguous question. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I needed to refer to unknown truth values specifically >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because all "undecidability" when construed correctly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> falls into one of two categories. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (a) Semantic incoherence >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (b) Unknown truth values. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nope. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Undecidability can not come from Semantic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Incoherence, as the definition of Undecidability ia >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> based on there being a coherent answer, just not one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that can be determined by a computation. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> richard richard richard, that is in-correct. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the undecidable problem turing described (as well as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the basic halting problem) involves a situations that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have _no_ coherent answer, not just one that can be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> known by not computed ... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Turing proved that there are universal Turing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> machines. An universalTuring machine halts with some >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inputs and doesn't halt with any other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> input. Every Turing machine that can be given the same >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> input as an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> universal Turing machine either fails to accept some >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> input with which >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that universal Turing machine halts or fails to reject >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some input with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which that universal Turing macnie does not halt. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dunno what ur saying here. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is a way to find out if you can read. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> i can't read if u can't explain >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can't explain the art of reading Common Language. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> turing hypothesized a diagonal computation that tries >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to put the Nth digit from the Nth circle-free machine >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as the Nth digit on this diagonal across all >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> circle-free machine... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is possible because there nither the machines nor >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> digit positions >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are more numerous than natural numbers. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yes, but then he argues it's impossible to compute the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> diagonal because of the paradox that ensues when naively >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> running the classifier on the diagonal itself >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is impossible to have a Turing machine that computes a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> number that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> no Turing machine can compute. But you can compute it if >>>>>>>>>>>>>> you can use >>>>>>>>>>>>>> all (infinitely many) Turing machines. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> no you can't. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hard to test as I han't infinite many Turing machines. But >>>>>>>>>>>> it is >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> u don't need to test it, you can't define a total dovetailing >>>>>>>>>>> machine to compute turing's diagonal, >>>>>>>>>> You should not say anything about the diagonal before you have >>>>>>>>>> defined >>>>>>>>>> it. Any use of the word before the definition is nonsense,. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> the H machine defined on p247 from his paper /on computable >>>>>>>>> numbers/ >>>>>>>> A machine is not a "diagonal". >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> the machine supposes to compute the "turing's diagonal" across >>>>>>> circle- free sequences, otherwise labeled as β' in the paper, >>>>>>> defined at the bottom of p246 >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Anything that any machine can possibly compute can >>>>>> be computed by applying a finite set of finite string >>>>>> transformation rules to a finite set of finite strings. >>>>>> >>>>>> Everything else is simply out-of-scope for computation >>>>>> like making a silk purse from a sow's ear. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> i believe the i mentally applied a finite set of string >>>>> transformations to decide that DD does in fact halt >>>>> >>>> >>>> No one every simplified is down to its barest possible >>>> essence before me. Also the entire body of knowledge >>>> expressed in language can be encoded as finite relations >>>> between finite strings. >>>> >>>> This transforms all undecidability into >>>> (a) Outside of the body of knowledge that can be expressed in language >>> >>> we know DD halts polcott, so clearly not outside the body of >>> knowledge that can be expressed in language >>> >> >> No it is fucked up bullshit like: >> "This sentence is not true" (see b below) > > are you saying u don't understand that DD maps to the semantic property > of "halting" polcott?? No I'm saying that M/RR changes by any small movement of a pebble within the earth's makeup. There are millions of vehicles driving around on the earth's surface altering the calculation. What's there to pinpointing G? What's next, setting down an ice-cold coca-cola and marveling at different temperature readings upon it? -- War in the east War in the west War up north War down south War War
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Re: The notion of a "well founded justification tree" will be fully elaborated --- Correction olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2026-04-18 07:58 -0500
Re: The notion of a "well founded justification tree" will be fully elaborated --- Correction Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2026-04-19 11:59 +0300
Re: The notion of a "well founded justification tree" will be fully elaborated --- Correction Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-04-19 09:42 -0700
Re: The notion of a "well founded justification tree" will be fully elaborated --- Correction olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2026-04-19 12:21 -0500
Re: The notion of a "well founded justification tree" will be fully elaborated --- Correction Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2026-04-19 13:58 -0400
Re: The notion of a "well founded justification tree" will be fully elaborated --- Correction dart200 <user7160@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-05-02 13:39 -0700
Re: The notion of a "well founded justification tree" will be fully elaborated --- Correction Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2026-05-03 10:53 +0300
Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2026-05-08 11:58 -0500
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis dart200 <user7160@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-05-08 10:13 -0700
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2026-05-08 12:35 -0500
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis dart200 <user7160@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-05-08 11:40 -0700
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2026-05-08 14:01 -0500
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis dart200 <user7160@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-05-10 13:06 -0700
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis phoenix <j63840576@gmail.com> - 2026-05-10 14:12 -0600
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-05-10 21:14 -0700
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-05-13 12:59 -0700
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2026-05-10 15:17 -0500
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2026-05-09 11:10 +0300
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2026-05-09 11:30 +0300
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2026-05-09 07:13 -0500
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2026-05-10 10:10 +0300
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-05-10 10:27 -0700
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2026-05-10 12:38 -0500
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2026-05-10 14:06 -0500
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2026-05-11 10:24 +0300
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2026-05-11 06:44 -0500
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2026-05-12 10:05 +0300
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2026-05-12 08:32 -0500
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2026-05-13 12:14 +0300
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2026-05-13 06:32 -0500
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2026-05-14 11:18 +0300
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-05-14 01:43 -0700
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2026-05-14 09:40 -0500
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2026-05-15 08:48 +0300
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2026-05-15 09:27 -0500
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2026-05-16 12:24 +0300
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2026-05-16 05:16 -0500
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis (Sumerian and Egyptian) Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-05-13 08:53 -0700
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis (Sumerian and Egyptian) Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-05-13 08:55 -0700
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2026-05-13 06:18 -0500
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2026-05-13 09:20 -0500
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2026-05-13 10:28 -0500
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2026-05-13 18:40 -0500
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2026-05-13 19:45 -0500
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-05-13 19:51 -0700
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2026-05-13 22:27 -0500
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-05-14 20:24 -0700
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2026-05-15 08:59 -0500
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2026-05-13 22:46 -0500
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis dart200 <user7160@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-05-15 23:45 -0700
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2026-05-16 11:42 +0300
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2026-05-16 05:08 -0500
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2026-05-14 10:54 +0300
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2026-05-14 10:30 -0500
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2026-05-15 08:44 +0300
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2026-05-15 09:24 -0500
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2026-05-16 12:15 +0300
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2026-05-16 05:11 -0500
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-05-15 07:27 -0700
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis (algebraic geometry) Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-05-15 07:46 -0700
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis (algebraic geometry) Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-05-15 07:54 -0700
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis (algebraic geometry) Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-05-15 08:34 -0700
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis (algebraic geometry) Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-05-15 09:08 -0700
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis (algebraic geometry) Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-05-15 10:31 -0700
Re: Simplifying the Church / Turing thesis "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-05-10 21:15 -0700
Re: The notion of a "well founded justification tree" will be fully elaborated --- Correction Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2026-04-20 11:49 +0300
Re: The notion of a "well founded justification tree" will be fully elaborated --- Correction olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2026-04-20 08:31 -0500
Re: The notion of a "well founded justification tree" will be fully elaborated --- Correction Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2026-04-21 09:30 +0300
Re: The notion of a "well founded justification tree" will be fully elaborated --- Correction olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2026-04-21 08:22 -0500
Re: The notion of a "well founded justification tree" will be fully elaborated --- Correction Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2026-04-22 10:03 +0300
Re: The notion of a "well founded justification tree" will be fully elaborated --- Correction olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2026-04-22 02:45 -0500
Re: The notion of a "well founded justification tree" will be fully elaborated --- Correction Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2026-04-23 09:35 +0300
Re: The notion of a "well founded justification tree" will be fully elaborated --- Correction olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2026-04-23 08:32 -0500
Re: The notion of a "well founded justification tree" will be fully elaborated --- Correction Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2026-04-24 09:08 +0300
Re: The notion of a "well founded justification tree" will be fully elaborated --- Correction olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2026-04-24 10:01 -0500
Re: The notion of a "well founded justification tree" will be fully elaborated --- Correction Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2026-04-25 11:18 +0300
Re: The notion of a "well founded justification tree" will be fully elaborated --- Correction olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2026-04-25 07:19 -0500
Re: The notion of a "well founded justification tree" will be fully elaborated --- Correction Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2026-04-26 11:17 +0300
The notion of a "well founded justification tree" will be fully elaborated --- Catches Liars olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2026-04-26 08:37 -0500
Re: The notion of a "well founded justification tree" will be fully elaborated --- Catches Liars Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2026-04-26 20:09 -0400
Re: The notion of a "well founded justification tree" will be fully elaborated --- Catches Liars Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2026-04-27 12:04 +0300
Re: The notion of a "well founded justification tree" will be fully elaborated --- Catches Liars olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2026-04-27 09:38 -0500
Re: The notion of a "well founded justification tree" will be fully elaborated --- Catches Liars Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2026-04-28 10:51 +0300
Re: The notion of a "well founded justification tree" will be fully elaborated --- Catches Liars olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2026-04-28 07:22 -0500
Re: The notion of a "well founded justification tree" will be fully elaborated --- Catches Liars Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2026-04-29 09:51 +0300
The notion of a "well founded justification tree" <is> fully elaborated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2026-04-24 11:24 -0500
Re: The notion of a "well founded justification tree" <is> fully elaborated Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2026-04-25 11:20 +0300
Re: The notion of a "well founded justification tree" <is> fully elaborated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2026-04-25 07:25 -0500
Re: The notion of a "well founded justification tree" <is> fully elaborated Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2026-04-26 11:09 +0300
Re: The notion of a "well founded justification tree" <is> fully elaborated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2026-04-26 08:22 -0500
Re: The notion of a "well founded justification tree" <is> fully elaborated Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2026-04-26 20:14 -0400
Re: The notion of a "well founded justification tree" <is> fully elaborated Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2026-04-27 12:22 +0300
Re: The notion of a "well founded justification tree" <is> fully elaborated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2026-04-27 09:47 -0500
Re: The notion of a "well founded justification tree" <is> fully elaborated Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2026-04-28 10:55 +0300
Re: The notion of a "well founded justification tree" <is> fully elaborated olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2026-04-28 07:24 -0500
Re: The notion of a "well founded justification tree" <is> fully elaborated Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2026-04-29 09:57 +0300
Re: The notion of a "well founded justification tree" <is> fully elaborated Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2026-04-30 11:04 +0300
Re: The notion of a "well founded justification tree" will be fully elaborated --- Correction Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-04-23 09:54 -0700
Re: The notion of a "well founded justification tree" will be fully elaborated --- Correction Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-04-23 09:57 -0700
Re: The notion of a "well founded justification tree" will be fully elaborated --- Correction Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-04-20 07:54 -0700
Re: The notion of a "well founded justification tree" will be fully elaborated --- Correction Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-04-20 08:32 -0700
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