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Bread board etc.

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  Bread board etc. Andy <andrewkennedy775@gmail.com> - 2017-12-29 15:32 -0800
    Re: Bread board etc. Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-12-29 18:49 -0500
      Re: Bread board etc. "Tom Del Rosso" <fizzbintuesday@that-google-mail-domain.com> - 2017-12-29 20:16 -0500
        Re: Bread board etc. pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-12-29 17:45 -0800
          Re: Bread board etc. "Tom Del Rosso" <fizzbintuesday@that-google-mail-domain.com> - 2017-12-29 21:40 -0500
      Re: Bread board etc. Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-12-30 09:56 -0700
        Re: Bread board etc. John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-12-30 09:22 -0800
          Re: Bread board etc. Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-12-30 10:58 -0700
          Re: Bread board etc. amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-12-31 17:37 -0600
            Re: Bread board etc. amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-12-31 19:14 -0600
      Re: Bread board etc. Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-30 10:33 -0800
        Re: Bread board etc. pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-12-30 11:09 -0800
          Re: Bread board etc. Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-30 11:25 -0800
            Re: Bread board etc. tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-12-30 15:33 -0800
          Re: Bread board etc. Andy <andrewkennedy775@gmail.com> - 2017-12-30 13:41 -0800
            Re: Bread board etc. Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-30 14:01 -0800
              Re: Bread board etc. Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-12-30 14:11 -0800
                Re: Bread board etc. krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-30 17:30 -0500
                Re: Bread board etc. Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-30 14:38 -0800
                  Re: Bread board etc. Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-12-30 14:52 -0800
                    Re: Bread board etc. Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-30 14:59 -0800
                    Re: Bread board etc. krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-30 18:02 -0500
                      Re: Bread board etc. Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-30 15:34 -0800
        Re: Bread board etc. Sjouke Burry <burrynulnulfour@ppllaanneett.nnll> - 2017-12-30 22:32 +0100
          Re: Bread board etc. Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-30 13:47 -0800
    Re: Bread board etc. Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-12-30 00:23 +0000
      Re: Bread board etc. Andy <andrewkennedy775@gmail.com> - 2017-12-29 16:35 -0800
        Re: Bread board etc. John Robertson <spam@flippers.com> - 2017-12-29 17:01 -0800
        Re: Bread board etc. Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-12-30 09:17 +0000
    Re: Bread board etc. sdy <sdeyoreo@hotmail.com> - 2017-12-29 16:56 -0800
      Re: Bread board etc. Andy <andrewkennedy775@gmail.com> - 2017-12-29 18:46 -0800
    Re: Bread board etc. John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-12-29 17:58 -0800
      Re: Bread board etc. Andy <andrewkennedy775@gmail.com> - 2017-12-29 18:44 -0800
        Re: Bread board etc. "Tom Del Rosso" <fizzbintuesday@that-google-mail-domain.com> - 2017-12-29 21:59 -0500
          Re: Bread board etc. krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-29 22:32 -0500
          Re: Bread board etc. John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-12-29 20:03 -0800
        Re: Bread board etc. John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-12-29 20:01 -0800
        Re: Bread board etc. tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-12-30 02:18 -0800
      Re: Bread board etc. Andy <andrewkennedy775@gmail.com> - 2017-12-29 18:52 -0800
        Re: Bread board etc. "Tom Del Rosso" <fizzbintuesday@that-google-mail-domain.com> - 2017-12-29 22:21 -0500
    Re: Bread board etc. "Tom Del Rosso" <fizzbintuesday@that-google-mail-domain.com> - 2017-12-29 21:45 -0500
    Re: Bread board etc. tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-12-29 19:55 -0800
    Re: Bread board etc. sdy <sdeyoreo@hotmail.com> - 2017-12-30 07:39 -0800
      Re: Bread board etc. John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-12-30 08:49 -0800
        Re: Bread board etc. krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-30 12:39 -0500
          Re: Bread board etc. John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-12-30 10:00 -0800
            Re: Bread board etc. mpm <mpmillard@aol.com> - 2017-12-30 10:28 -0800
            Re: Bread board etc. krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-30 15:09 -0500
              Re: Bread board etc. John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-12-30 18:25 -0800
                Re: Bread board etc. krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-30 21:41 -0500
                  Re: Bread board etc. John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-12-30 19:33 -0800
                    Re: Bread board etc. krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-31 16:25 -0500
            Re: Bread board etc. Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2017-12-31 14:54 +0800
        Re: Bread board etc. Robert Loos <1209@baer-gmbh.com> - 2018-01-04 09:18 +0100

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#489807

On 2017-12-30 14:52, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> Den lørdag den 30. december 2017 kl. 23.38.42 UTC+1 skrev Joerg:
>> On 2017-12-30 14:11, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>>> Den lørdag den 30. december 2017 kl. 23.01.05 UTC+1 skrev Joerg:
>>>> On 2017-12-30 13:41, Andy wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, December 30, 2017 at 1:09:51 PM UTC-6,
>>>>> pcdh...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>> That was at the beginning of my first self-employed
>>>>>>> foray, to be able to design and test baseband sections
>>>>>>> for Pulsed-Doppler. Turns out all my initial med tech
>>>>>>> projects later were imaging projects so this
>>>>>>> painstakingly built box never saw meaningful service. I
>>>>>>> did one small RF experiment with that and promptly blew
>>>>>>> one of the four LH0063 by accidentally transmitting 100W
>>>>>>> shortwave into it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I couldn't bring myself to do it yet but some day I'll
>>>>>>> just have cut it loose. As we get older my wife's mantra
>>>>>>> has become "Just get rid of it!" :-)>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you feel like fixing it instead, I'll happily donate an
>>>>>> LH0063CK to the cause.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You could show your better half this Paul Carlson video so
>>>>>> she can see how well off she is. ;)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TP9Fb6RUMsk
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Phil Hobbs
>>>>>
>>>>> Nice lab.
>>>>>
>>>>> Musta cost a pretty penny.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Actually not anymore unless you count the real estate costs.
>>>> Nearly all of those boat anchor instruments can be bought
>>>> cheaply because most younger engineers do not have the foggiest
>>>> how to operate them. So they get ditched by large and small
>>>> companies. Unfortunately sometimes literally. Pleany of stories
>>>> where someone heard a vvrradda-BAM .. CRUNCH out in the parking
>>>> lot. Turns out not to have been a fender bender but someone had
>>>> just thrown an XYZ analyzer into the dumpster, with another
>>>> stash of them waiting on the fork lift.
>>>
>>> and they don't have to be old or outdated, if the bean counters
>>> decide they are worth the most as destroyed they go into the
>>> crusher
>>>
>>
>> Bean counters are often not smart with those decisions. Many don't
>> seem to understand that donating equipment would net the company a
>> nice big tax deduction. Even if they'd just call in the guys from
>> the next tech bone yard they'd at least get a small amount per
>> pound of weight. Plus lower charges from the waste disposal
>> service.
>>
>> Even my over 40 year old first oscilloscope still has a job. Not
>> here but in a high school I donated it to. I didn't need a tax
>> receipt, just wanted to make sure the kids have something that
>> makes them literally see waveform changes as they create them.
>>
>> Really smart managers in high-tech companies maek sure there is a
>> junk room where old gear is kept instead of tossed. Over my career
>> that has saved the bacon many times. Occasionally I had to invest
>> an hour or two of billed time but then the rejuvenated old analog
>> scope diagnosed the problem they had been chasing for days.
>
> afaiu once it has been written off just keeping it in storage it is
> the same as crushing it far tax goes it has no value but eventually
> you run out of space, if you sell it you probably have to jump
> through all kind of hoops to figure out how much was written off and
> how much you made selling it
>

If they can't classify it as some sort of in-kind contribution then just 
give it away. There is more to it that taxes, for example the 
recognition of a corporation in the community. A nicely equipped 
high-school or maker club lab with a placard stating who donated all 
that stuff goes a long way.

-- 
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

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#489808

On Sat, 30 Dec 2017 14:52:29 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
<langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

>Den lørdag den 30. december 2017 kl. 23.38.42 UTC+1 skrev Joerg:
>> On 2017-12-30 14:11, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>> > Den lørdag den 30. december 2017 kl. 23.01.05 UTC+1 skrev Joerg:
>> >> On 2017-12-30 13:41, Andy wrote:
>> >>> On Saturday, December 30, 2017 at 1:09:51 PM UTC-6,
>> >>> pcdh...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >>>>> That was at the beginning of my first self-employed foray, to
>> >>>>> be able to design and test baseband sections for
>> >>>>> Pulsed-Doppler. Turns out all my initial med tech projects
>> >>>>> later were imaging projects so this painstakingly built box
>> >>>>> never saw meaningful service. I did one small RF experiment
>> >>>>> with that and promptly blew one of the four LH0063 by
>> >>>>> accidentally transmitting 100W shortwave into it.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I couldn't bring myself to do it yet but some day I'll just
>> >>>>> have cut it loose. As we get older my wife's mantra has
>> >>>>> become "Just get rid of it!" :-)>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> If you feel like fixing it instead, I'll happily donate an
>> >>>> LH0063CK to the cause.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> You could show your better half this Paul Carlson video so she
>> >>>> can see how well off she is. ;)
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TP9Fb6RUMsk
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Cheers
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Phil Hobbs
>> >>>
>> >>> Nice lab.
>> >>>
>> >>> Musta cost a pretty penny.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> Actually not anymore unless you count the real estate costs. Nearly
>> >> all of those boat anchor instruments can be bought cheaply because
>> >> most younger engineers do not have the foggiest how to operate
>> >> them. So they get ditched by large and small companies.
>> >> Unfortunately sometimes literally. Pleany of stories where someone
>> >> heard a vvrradda-BAM .. CRUNCH out in the parking lot. Turns out
>> >> not to have been a fender bender but someone had just thrown an XYZ
>> >> analyzer into the dumpster, with another stash of them waiting on
>> >> the fork lift.
>> >
>> > and they don't have to be old or outdated, if the bean counters
>> > decide they are worth the most as destroyed they go into the crusher
>> >
>> 
>> Bean counters are often not smart with those decisions. Many don't seem 
>> to understand that donating equipment would net the company a nice big 
>> tax deduction. Even if they'd just call in the guys from the next tech 
>> bone yard they'd at least get a small amount per pound of weight. Plus 
>> lower charges from the waste disposal service.
>> 
>> Even my over 40 year old first oscilloscope still has a job. Not here 
>> but in a high school I donated it to. I didn't need a tax receipt, just 
>> wanted to make sure the kids have something that makes them literally 
>> see waveform changes as they create them.
>> 
>> Really smart managers in high-tech companies maek sure there is a junk 
>> room where old gear is kept instead of tossed. Over my career that has 
>> saved the bacon many times. Occasionally I had to invest an hour or two 
>> of billed time but then the rejuvenated old analog scope diagnosed the 
>> problem they had been chasing for days.
>
>afaiu once it has been written off just keeping it in storage it is the same 
>as crushing it far tax goes it has no value but eventually you run out of space, if you sell it you probably have to jump through all kind of hoops to figure out how much was written off and how much you made selling it
>
There should be a database of all capital equipment, including its
book value.  If the equipment is sold for more than its book value,
sure, it's write-off has to be recaptured for tax purposes.  If for
less, the difference is written off.  If it's crushed or donated it
can be written off immediately, too.  I don't see the paperwork being
all that much different.  It's what computers do.  The difference is
that it takes work to find someone who wants it.  The dumpster is
easy.

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#489813

On 2017-12-30 15:02, krw@notreal.com wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Dec 2017 14:52:29 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
> <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:
>
>> Den lørdag den 30. december 2017 kl. 23.38.42 UTC+1 skrev Joerg:
>>> On 2017-12-30 14:11, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>>>> Den lørdag den 30. december 2017 kl. 23.01.05 UTC+1 skrev Joerg:
>>>>> On 2017-12-30 13:41, Andy wrote:
>>>>>> On Saturday, December 30, 2017 at 1:09:51 PM UTC-6,
>>>>>> pcdh...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> That was at the beginning of my first self-employed foray, to
>>>>>>>> be able to design and test baseband sections for
>>>>>>>> Pulsed-Doppler. Turns out all my initial med tech projects
>>>>>>>> later were imaging projects so this painstakingly built box
>>>>>>>> never saw meaningful service. I did one small RF experiment
>>>>>>>> with that and promptly blew one of the four LH0063 by
>>>>>>>> accidentally transmitting 100W shortwave into it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I couldn't bring myself to do it yet but some day I'll just
>>>>>>>> have cut it loose. As we get older my wife's mantra has
>>>>>>>> become "Just get rid of it!" :-)>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you feel like fixing it instead, I'll happily donate an
>>>>>>> LH0063CK to the cause.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You could show your better half this Paul Carlson video so she
>>>>>>> can see how well off she is. ;)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TP9Fb6RUMsk
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Phil Hobbs
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nice lab.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Musta cost a pretty penny.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Actually not anymore unless you count the real estate costs. Nearly
>>>>> all of those boat anchor instruments can be bought cheaply because
>>>>> most younger engineers do not have the foggiest how to operate
>>>>> them. So they get ditched by large and small companies.
>>>>> Unfortunately sometimes literally. Pleany of stories where someone
>>>>> heard a vvrradda-BAM .. CRUNCH out in the parking lot. Turns out
>>>>> not to have been a fender bender but someone had just thrown an XYZ
>>>>> analyzer into the dumpster, with another stash of them waiting on
>>>>> the fork lift.
>>>>
>>>> and they don't have to be old or outdated, if the bean counters
>>>> decide they are worth the most as destroyed they go into the crusher
>>>>
>>>
>>> Bean counters are often not smart with those decisions. Many don't seem
>>> to understand that donating equipment would net the company a nice big
>>> tax deduction. Even if they'd just call in the guys from the next tech
>>> bone yard they'd at least get a small amount per pound of weight. Plus
>>> lower charges from the waste disposal service.
>>>
>>> Even my over 40 year old first oscilloscope still has a job. Not here
>>> but in a high school I donated it to. I didn't need a tax receipt, just
>>> wanted to make sure the kids have something that makes them literally
>>> see waveform changes as they create them.
>>>
>>> Really smart managers in high-tech companies maek sure there is a junk
>>> room where old gear is kept instead of tossed. Over my career that has
>>> saved the bacon many times. Occasionally I had to invest an hour or two
>>> of billed time but then the rejuvenated old analog scope diagnosed the
>>> problem they had been chasing for days.
>>
>> afaiu once it has been written off just keeping it in storage it is the same
>> as crushing it far tax goes it has no value but eventually you run out of space, if you sell it you probably have to jump through all kind of hoops to figure out how much was written off and how much you made selling it
>>
> There should be a database of all capital equipment, including its
> book value.  If the equipment is sold for more than its book value,
> sure, it's write-off has to be recaptured for tax purposes.  If for
> less, the difference is written off.  If it's crushed or donated it
> can be written off immediately, too.  I don't see the paperwork being
> all that much different.  It's what computers do.  The difference is
> that it takes work to find someone who wants it.


Last time it took me about 10 seconds. I simply asked a physics teacher. 
The times before that it was never more than a few minutes.

This goes for tech stuff though. For other things such as our Hammond 
organ that will be very different. Having spent a lot of time and money 
restoring it I hate to see it go but due to longterm consequences from a 
wrist fracture my wife can't play it anymore.


>  ... The dumpster is easy.
>

People should always ask themselves if the easy route is the proper way 
for society.

-- 
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

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#489795

On 30-12-2017 19:33, Joerg wrote:
> On 2017-12-29 15:49, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>> On 12/29/2017 06:32 PM, Andy wrote:
>>> What do I need in order to solder my parts for a project ?
>>>
>>> I looked up breadboard but not sure if that's what I need.
>>>
>>> Is there something I can use to insert resistors etc. and test my
>>> circuit before soldering?
>>>
>>> Andy
>>>
>>
>> There are "white solderless breadboards".  They can be okay for stuff
>> like audio op amp circuits, blinking LEDs, and MCU projects using small,
>> slow chips such as PIC-16 or ATmega, which still come in DIP packages.
>>
>> Trouble is, they have a lot of stray capacitance between rows (~ 2 pF
>> iirc, which is about 10x worse than a PC board), a lot of stray
>> inductance (10-20 nanohenries per row, not counting the long floppy
>> wires) and no ground plane.
>>
>> That makes it difficult to get higher-speed circuits working.
>>
>> Once you've been using the breadboard awhile, the contacts become flaky,
>> leading to hard-to-debug problems.
>>
>> On the other hand, it's easy to change stuff and see what happens.
>>
>> Forty years ago, when I was a teenager, I built myself a box with dual
>> tracking power supplies and a white plastic breadboard on top of it.
>> Worked fine.  Never did build anything on it, though--I switched to dead
>> bug style and have never looked back.
>>
>
> Here is my worst "Why did I ever build this?" project:
>
> A super fast hi-Z experimenter's kit for my HP-3577A network analyzer.
> King size, LH0063 buffers and the whole nine yards. Painted fire-engine
> red (same paint I used for my 1st car), big double-shoe-box sized linear
> power supply. It worked great and I still have it.
>
> That was at the beginning of my first self-employed foray, to be able to
> design and test baseband sections for Pulsed-Doppler. Turns out all my
> initial med tech projects later were imaging projects so this
> painstakingly built box never saw meaningful service. I did one small RF
> experiment with that and promptly blew one of the four LH0063 by
> accidentally transmitting 100W shortwave into it.
>
> I couldn't bring myself to do it yet but some day I'll just have cut it
> loose. As we get older my wife's mantra has become "Just get rid of it!" :-)
>
what if you apply that mantra to your wife?????????

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#489797

On 2017-12-30 13:32, Sjouke Burry wrote:
> On 30-12-2017 19:33, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2017-12-29 15:49, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>> On 12/29/2017 06:32 PM, Andy wrote:
>>>> What do I need in order to solder my parts for a project ?
>>>>
>>>> I looked up breadboard but not sure if that's what I need.
>>>>
>>>> Is there something I can use to insert resistors etc. and test my
>>>> circuit before soldering?
>>>>
>>>> Andy
>>>>
>>>
>>> There are "white solderless breadboards".  They can be okay for stuff
>>> like audio op amp circuits, blinking LEDs, and MCU projects using small,
>>> slow chips such as PIC-16 or ATmega, which still come in DIP packages.
>>>
>>> Trouble is, they have a lot of stray capacitance between rows (~ 2 pF
>>> iirc, which is about 10x worse than a PC board), a lot of stray
>>> inductance (10-20 nanohenries per row, not counting the long floppy
>>> wires) and no ground plane.
>>>
>>> That makes it difficult to get higher-speed circuits working.
>>>
>>> Once you've been using the breadboard awhile, the contacts become flaky,
>>> leading to hard-to-debug problems.
>>>
>>> On the other hand, it's easy to change stuff and see what happens.
>>>
>>> Forty years ago, when I was a teenager, I built myself a box with dual
>>> tracking power supplies and a white plastic breadboard on top of it.
>>> Worked fine.  Never did build anything on it, though--I switched to dead
>>> bug style and have never looked back.
>>>
>>
>> Here is my worst "Why did I ever build this?" project:
>>
>> A super fast hi-Z experimenter's kit for my HP-3577A network analyzer.
>> King size, LH0063 buffers and the whole nine yards. Painted fire-engine
>> red (same paint I used for my 1st car), big double-shoe-box sized linear
>> power supply. It worked great and I still have it.
>>
>> That was at the beginning of my first self-employed foray, to be able to
>> design and test baseband sections for Pulsed-Doppler. Turns out all my
>> initial med tech projects later were imaging projects so this
>> painstakingly built box never saw meaningful service. I did one small RF
>> experiment with that and promptly blew one of the four LH0063 by
>> accidentally transmitting 100W shortwave into it.
>>
>> I couldn't bring myself to do it yet but some day I'll just have cut it
>> loose. As we get older my wife's mantra has become "Just get rid of
>> it!" :-)
>>
> what if you apply that mantra to your wife?????????


No, she is a keeper. It's still Wife 1.0 and no other plans :-)

In essence she is right. There comes a time when we have to downsize and 
then we don't want to have too much clutter left.

-- 
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#489666

On 29/12/17 23:32, Andy wrote:
> What do I need in order to solder my parts for a project ?
>
> I looked up breadboard but not sure if that's what I need.
>
> Is there something I can use to insert resistors etc. and test my circuit before soldering?

With solderless breadboards you usually end up debugging the
breadboard, the interconnections and the parasitics.

It is almost always better to use dead bug, live bug, manhattan,
or any of the other techniques where you solder components
together in an ad-hoc fashion.

Done properly, the results can be good, robust and a good
indication of how a circuit would work if make on a PCB.
Indeed, often for one-offs it is unnecessary to actually
make a "proper" PCB.

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#489667

On Friday, December 29, 2017 at 6:23:11 PM UTC-6, Tom Gardner wrote:
> On 29/12/17 23:32, Andy wrote:
> > What do I need in order to solder my parts for a project ?
> >
> > I looked up breadboard but not sure if that's what I need.
> >
> > Is there something I can use to insert resistors etc. and test my circuit before soldering?
> 
> With solderless breadboards you usually end up debugging the
> breadboard, the interconnections and the parasitics.
> 
> It is almost always better to use dead bug, live bug, manhattan,
> or any of the other techniques where you solder components
> together in an ad-hoc fashion.
> 
> Done properly, the results can be good, robust and a good
> indication of how a circuit would work if make on a PCB.
> Indeed, often for one-offs it is unnecessary to actually
> make a "proper" PCB.

I looked up dead bug on an electronics site but found nothing.

Where do I find them ?

I have some empty boards with letters on the top along with multiple holes.
And 4 solder tabs on each end.

Could not really figure out how to use it. Looks like it would be easy to short stuff out using it ?

Andy

Andy

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#489671

On 2017/12/29 4:35 PM, Andy wrote:
> On Friday, December 29, 2017 at 6:23:11 PM UTC-6, Tom Gardner wrote:
>> On 29/12/17 23:32, Andy wrote:
>>> What do I need in order to solder my parts for a project ?
>>>
>>> I looked up breadboard but not sure if that's what I need.
>>>
>>> Is there something I can use to insert resistors etc. and test my circuit before soldering?
>>
>> With solderless breadboards you usually end up debugging the
>> breadboard, the interconnections and the parasitics.
>>
>> It is almost always better to use dead bug, live bug, manhattan,
>> or any of the other techniques where you solder components
>> together in an ad-hoc fashion.
>>
>> Done properly, the results can be good, robust and a good
>> indication of how a circuit would work if make on a PCB.
>> Indeed, often for one-offs it is unnecessary to actually
>> make a "proper" PCB.
> 
> I looked up dead bug on an electronics site but found nothing.

Here is an example:

http://www.instructables.com/id/Dead-Bug-Prototyping-and-Freeform-Electronics/

> 
> Where do I find them ?

YOU make the 'dead bug'...

> 
> I have some empty boards with letters on the top along with multiple holes.
> And 4 solder tabs on each end.

Sounds like some sort of solderless breadboard, you insert wires and 
components in the holes, once you figure out which way the connections 
run...like these:

https://wiki.analog.com/university/courses/electronics/electronics-lab-breadboards

> 
> Could not really figure out how to use it. Looks like it would be easy to short stuff out using it ?
> 
> Andy

Hope that helps! Welcome to the looney bin...

John :-#)#


-- 
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
                      John's Jukes Ltd.
MOVED to #7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3
          (604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
                      www.flippers.com
        "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

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#489719

On 30/12/17 00:35, Andy wrote:
> On Friday, December 29, 2017 at 6:23:11 PM UTC-6, Tom Gardner wrote:
>> On 29/12/17 23:32, Andy wrote:
>>> What do I need in order to solder my parts for a project ?
>>>
>>> I looked up breadboard but not sure if that's what I need.
>>>
>>> Is there something I can use to insert resistors etc. and test my circuit before soldering?
>>
>> With solderless breadboards you usually end up debugging the
>> breadboard, the interconnections and the parasitics.
>>
>> It is almost always better to use dead bug, live bug, manhattan,
>> or any of the other techniques where you solder components
>> together in an ad-hoc fashion.
>>
>> Done properly, the results can be good, robust and a good
>> indication of how a circuit would work if make on a PCB.
>> Indeed, often for one-offs it is unnecessary to actually
>> make a "proper" PCB.
>
> I looked up dead bug on an electronics site but found nothing.
>
> Where do I find them ?

Google is your friend, e.g.

http://embeddederic.blogspot.co.uk/2011/08/remembering-jim-williams-dead-bug-style.html
http://kd1jv.qrpradio.com/ARRLHBC/ARRL_MMR40.html
http://pa1ed.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/bitx20-v3-post-if-amplifier-and-1th.html
https://sites.google.com/site/linuxdigitallab/homebrew-craft/homebrew-use-fuse-for-manhattan

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#489670

On Friday, December 29, 2017 at 6:32:16 PM UTC-5, Andy wrote:
> What do I need in order to solder my parts for a project ?
> 
> I looked up breadboard but not sure if that's what I need.
> 
> Is there something I can use to insert resistors etc. and test my circuit before soldering?
> 
> Andy

solderless breadboards are what you should use:
https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=solderless+breadboards&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=234340874779&hvpos=1t1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=14997199606271559949&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9001779&hvtargid=kwd-2438092814&ref=pd_sl_2zazsan0dr_e

You see 2 columns of holes on each side, all the holes in each column are connected to each other. The column with the red line usually gets connected to +5 volts and the blue column goes to ground.
Then you see rows of 5 holes. Each of those holes are connected.
Insert your resistors and stuff in the holes. Everything plugged into the holes of one row are the connected.
Get an ohm meter and check it out.

Does that make sense?
Keep posting if you need help.

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#489680

On Friday, December 29, 2017 at 6:57:00 PM UTC-6, sdy wrote:
> On Friday, December 29, 2017 at 6:32:16 PM UTC-5, Andy wrote:
> > What do I need in order to solder my parts for a project ?
> > 
> > I looked up breadboard but not sure if that's what I need.
> > 
> > Is there something I can use to insert resistors etc. and test my circuit before soldering?
> > 
> > Andy
> 
> solderless breadboards are what you should use:
> https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=solderless+breadboards&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=234340874779&hvpos=1t1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=14997199606271559949&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9001779&hvtargid=kwd-2438092814&ref=pd_sl_2zazsan0dr_e
> 
> You see 2 columns of holes on each side, all the holes in each column are connected to each other. The column with the red line usually gets connected to +5 volts and the blue column goes to ground.
> Then you see rows of 5 holes. Each of those holes are connected.
> Insert your resistors and stuff in the holes. Everything plugged into the holes of one row are the connected.
> Get an ohm meter and check it out.
> 
> Does that make sense?
> Keep posting if you need help.

It makes sense. I will order one and experiment.

Andy

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#489676

On Fri, 29 Dec 2017 15:32:08 -0800 (PST), Andy
<andrewkennedy775@gmail.com> wrote:

>What do I need in order to solder my parts for a project ?
>
>I looked up breadboard but not sure if that's what I need.
>
>Is there something I can use to insert resistors etc. and test my circuit before soldering?
>
>Andy

Why not solder? Simulate first, maybe.

You can do nice hand-built circuits on copperclad FR4.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yd19osiwz1z74s4/HV_Proto_2.JPG?raw=1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/mcf1aneghx9lepp/Z338_PCB.JPG?raw=1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/48c8qh80yhbehj6/Z356_Top.JPG?raw=1

That last one got shipped to a customer.

What sorts of circuits are you considering?


-- 

John Larkin   Highland Technology, Inc   trk

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

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#489679

On Friday, December 29, 2017 at 7:58:21 PM UTC-6, John Larkin wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Dec 2017 15:32:08 -0800 (PST), Andy
> <andrewkennedy775@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> >What do I need in order to solder my parts for a project ?
> >
> >I looked up breadboard but not sure if that's what I need.
> >
> >Is there something I can use to insert resistors etc. and test my circuit before soldering?
> >
> >Andy
> 
> Why not solder? Simulate first, maybe.
> 
> You can do nice hand-built circuits on copperclad FR4.
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/yd19osiwz1z74s4/HV_Proto_2.JPG?raw=1
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/mcf1aneghx9lepp/Z338_PCB.JPG?raw=1
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/48c8qh80yhbehj6/Z356_Top.JPG?raw=1
> 
> That last one got shipped to a customer.
> 
> What sorts of circuits are you considering?
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> John Larkin   Highland Technology, Inc   trk
> 
> jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
> http://www.highlandtechnology.com

So with the FR4, would I scratch around areas I did not want to connect with others?

I would like to keep my soldering iron plugged in.

Is their a circuit I can make where I can set the time from 10 minutes to 1 hr and then have the power shut down? That way I minimize burning out my tip if I forget to unplug it.

Soldering iron is 30W.

Andy

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#489684

Andy wrote:
> On Friday, December 29, 2017 at 7:58:21 PM UTC-6, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Fri, 29 Dec 2017 15:32:08 -0800 (PST), Andy
>> <andrewkennedy775@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> What do I need in order to solder my parts for a project ?
>>>
>>> I looked up breadboard but not sure if that's what I need.
>>>
>>> Is there something I can use to insert resistors etc. and test my
>>> circuit before soldering?
>>>
>>> Andy
>>
>> Why not solder? Simulate first, maybe.
>>
>> You can do nice hand-built circuits on copperclad FR4.
>>
>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/yd19osiwz1z74s4/HV_Proto_2.JPG?raw=1
>>
>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/mcf1aneghx9lepp/Z338_PCB.JPG?raw=1
>>
>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/48c8qh80yhbehj6/Z356_Top.JPG?raw=1
>>
>> That last one got shipped to a customer.
>>
>> What sorts of circuits are you considering?
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> John Larkin   Highland Technology, Inc   trk
>>
>> jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
>> http://www.highlandtechnology.com
>
> So with the FR4, would I scratch around areas I did not want to
> connect with others?

You probably need a Dremel for that.  Scratching it with a sharp hand 
tool would make it hard to get the right width of the gap, and since it 
would look messy it might be hard to tell if the cut is complete and not 
shorted.  Also it would be easy to accidentally rip a big piece of foil 
off.


> I would like to keep my soldering iron plugged in.
>
> Is their a circuit I can make where I can set the time from 10
> minutes to 1 hr and then have the power shut down? That way I
> minimize burning out my tip if I forget to unplug it.

The fire hazard is more important than the tip.  Just unplug it.  A 
timer is more trouble than it's worth.  It would cut off when you're in 
the middle of using it.

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#489692

On Fri, 29 Dec 2017 21:59:50 -0500, "Tom Del Rosso"
<fizzbintuesday@that-google-mail-domain.com> wrote:

>Andy wrote:
>> On Friday, December 29, 2017 at 7:58:21 PM UTC-6, John Larkin wrote:
>>> On Fri, 29 Dec 2017 15:32:08 -0800 (PST), Andy
>>> <andrewkennedy775@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> What do I need in order to solder my parts for a project ?
>>>>
>>>> I looked up breadboard but not sure if that's what I need.
>>>>
>>>> Is there something I can use to insert resistors etc. and test my
>>>> circuit before soldering?
>>>>
>>>> Andy
>>>
>>> Why not solder? Simulate first, maybe.
>>>
>>> You can do nice hand-built circuits on copperclad FR4.
>>>
>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/yd19osiwz1z74s4/HV_Proto_2.JPG?raw=1
>>>
>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/mcf1aneghx9lepp/Z338_PCB.JPG?raw=1
>>>
>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/48c8qh80yhbehj6/Z356_Top.JPG?raw=1
>>>
>>> That last one got shipped to a customer.
>>>
>>> What sorts of circuits are you considering?
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> John Larkin   Highland Technology, Inc   trk
>>>
>>> jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
>>> http://www.highlandtechnology.com
>>
>> So with the FR4, would I scratch around areas I did not want to
>> connect with others?
>
>You probably need a Dremel for that.  Scratching it with a sharp hand 
>tool would make it hard to get the right width of the gap, and since it 
>would look messy it might be hard to tell if the cut is complete and not 
>shorted.  Also it would be easy to accidentally rip a big piece of foil 
>off.

I do it successfully with an "X-Acto" knife.  An ohmmeter is useful
for telling when the cut is complete.  ;-)

>> I would like to keep my soldering iron plugged in.
>>
>> Is their a circuit I can make where I can set the time from 10
>> minutes to 1 hr and then have the power shut down? That way I
>> minimize burning out my tip if I forget to unplug it.
>
>The fire hazard is more important than the tip.  Just unplug it.  A 
>timer is more trouble than it's worth.  It would cut off when you're in 
>the middle of using it.

Get an iron with an automatic shut off.

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#489700

On Fri, 29 Dec 2017 21:59:50 -0500, "Tom Del Rosso"
<fizzbintuesday@that-google-mail-domain.com> wrote:

>Andy wrote:
>> On Friday, December 29, 2017 at 7:58:21 PM UTC-6, John Larkin wrote:
>>> On Fri, 29 Dec 2017 15:32:08 -0800 (PST), Andy
>>> <andrewkennedy775@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> What do I need in order to solder my parts for a project ?
>>>>
>>>> I looked up breadboard but not sure if that's what I need.
>>>>
>>>> Is there something I can use to insert resistors etc. and test my
>>>> circuit before soldering?
>>>>
>>>> Andy
>>>
>>> Why not solder? Simulate first, maybe.
>>>
>>> You can do nice hand-built circuits on copperclad FR4.
>>>
>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/yd19osiwz1z74s4/HV_Proto_2.JPG?raw=1
>>>
>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/mcf1aneghx9lepp/Z338_PCB.JPG?raw=1
>>>
>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/48c8qh80yhbehj6/Z356_Top.JPG?raw=1
>>>
>>> That last one got shipped to a customer.
>>>
>>> What sorts of circuits are you considering?
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> John Larkin   Highland Technology, Inc   trk
>>>
>>> jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
>>> http://www.highlandtechnology.com
>>
>> So with the FR4, would I scratch around areas I did not want to
>> connect with others?
>
>You probably need a Dremel for that. 

Dremel with a carbide dental burr. They are cheap on ebay.


-- 

John Larkin   Highland Technology, Inc   trk

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

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#489699

On Fri, 29 Dec 2017 18:44:06 -0800 (PST), Andy
<andrewkennedy775@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, December 29, 2017 at 7:58:21 PM UTC-6, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Fri, 29 Dec 2017 15:32:08 -0800 (PST), Andy
>> <andrewkennedy775@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> >What do I need in order to solder my parts for a project ?
>> >
>> >I looked up breadboard but not sure if that's what I need.
>> >
>> >Is there something I can use to insert resistors etc. and test my circuit before soldering?
>> >
>> >Andy
>> 
>> Why not solder? Simulate first, maybe.
>> 
>> You can do nice hand-built circuits on copperclad FR4.
>> 
>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/yd19osiwz1z74s4/HV_Proto_2.JPG?raw=1
>> 
>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/mcf1aneghx9lepp/Z338_PCB.JPG?raw=1
>> 
>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/48c8qh80yhbehj6/Z356_Top.JPG?raw=1
>> 
>> That last one got shipped to a customer.
>> 
>> What sorts of circuits are you considering?
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> 
>> John Larkin   Highland Technology, Inc   trk
>> 
>> jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
>> http://www.highlandtechnology.com
>
>So with the FR4, would I scratch around areas I did not want to connect with others?

You have several options:

Dremel (don't scratch) isolated regions.

Dead bug: glue IC's face down and wire them up.

Live bug: mount them rightside up, maybe using surface-mount adapters.
Or bend DIP leads out horizontal, glue the parts down, wire.
Or bend some leads out and solder others to ground.

>
>I would like to keep my soldering iron plugged in.
>
>Is their a circuit I can make where I can set the time from 10 minutes to 1 hr and then have the power shut down? That way I minimize burning out my tip if I forget to unplug it.
>
>Soldering iron is 30W.

We use a twist timer.


-- 

John Larkin   Highland Technology, Inc   trk

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

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#489725

On Saturday, 30 December 2017 02:44:11 UTC, Andy  wrote:

> So with the FR4, would I scratch around areas I did not want to connect with others?

A sharp knife also works. Cut a very narrow V shape out. I prefer the matrix of holes board though.

> I would like to keep my soldering iron plugged in.
> 
> Is their a circuit I can make where I can set the time from 10 minutes to 1 hr and then have the power shut down? That way I minimize burning out my tip if I forget to unplug it.
> 
> Soldering iron is 30W.
> 
> Andy

You can buy plug-in timers for very little. A thermostatic iron suffers less tip burn than non-thermostatic.


NT

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#489683

On Friday, December 29, 2017 at 7:58:21 PM UTC-6, John Larkin wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Dec 2017 15:32:08 -0800 (PST), Andy
> <andrewkennedy775@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> >What do I need in order to solder my parts for a project ?
> >
> >I looked up breadboard but not sure if that's what I need.
> >
> >Is there something I can use to insert resistors etc. and test my circuit before soldering?
> >
> >Andy
> 
> Why not solder? Simulate first, maybe.
> 
> You can do nice hand-built circuits on copperclad FR4.
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/yd19osiwz1z74s4/HV_Proto_2.JPG?raw=1
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/mcf1aneghx9lepp/Z338_PCB.JPG?raw=1
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/48c8qh80yhbehj6/Z356_Top.JPG?raw=1
> 
> That last one got shipped to a customer.
> 
> What sorts of circuits are you considering?
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> John Larkin   Highland Technology, Inc   trk
> 
> jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
> http://www.highlandtechnology.com

Thanks.

It looks like a Solder-less Breadboard with the copper on the back would be easier than the one with the jumper wires.

I could not find a place that sells them ?

Andy

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#489688

Andy wrote:
>
> It looks like a Solder-less Breadboard with the copper on the back
> would be easier than the one with the jumper wires.

Solderless with copper sounds like a contradiction in terms.  I don't 
know what you're refering to.  Maybe you mean perforated boards that 
must be soldered, not solderless.  In that case look at DigiKey.com

Anyway DigiKey and Mouser are probably your best sources.  DigiKey has a 
lot of perforated prototype boards.

BangGood has a $20 oscilloscope (only 200kHz but it's useful until you 
can get a better one) and other nice kits.  They also have cheap tools 
like a Dremel knock-off which you'll need to make boards like John 
Larkin's examples.

But if money isn't too tight, get a real Dremel.  It'll probably last 
longer.  It has so many uses you'll wonder how you lived without it. 
Wear safety goggles because they do sometimes spew schrapnel.

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