Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair

From	Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@talktalk.net>
Newsgroups	comp.unix.programmer
Subject	Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair
Date	2024-12-13 11:42 +0000
Message-ID	<87y10jn71h.fsf@doppelsaurus.mobileactivedefense.com> (permalink)
References	(11 earlier) <vja9r8$14k6s$1@dont-email.me> <vjbiop$1f2e5$1@dont-email.me> <vjd3jg$1od5c$3@dont-email.me> <vje7fb$21u8i$1@dont-email.me> <vjfo8l$2vfl9$3@dont-email.me>

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Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
> On Thu, 12 Dec 2024 08:39:07 -0000 (UTC), Muttley wrote:
>> On Wed, 11 Dec 2024 22:26:56 -0000 (UTC)
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Wed, 11 Dec 2024 08:33:29 -0000 (UTC), Muttley wrote:
>>>
>>>> It doesn't need to , it can just spawn off a script or some other
>>>> program which does that which is entirely inline with the unix
>>>> philosophy.
>>>
>>> Which is where the trouble starts.
>> 
>> The trouble is with any support scripts, not with init. I've written a
>> number of init scripts with a lot of surrounding logic.
>
> I’m sure you have. Which means you are familiar with the wholesale copying 
> and pasting of boilerplate from one script to the next. “What does this 
> bit do?” “Don’t bother thinking too hard, just stick it in, just in
> case.”

Nobody but you can be familiar with what you are doing when being forced
to write code.

>> God knows how I'd do that with systemd ...
>
> Figure out what the directives do (they’re all documented), and which 
> settings will achieve the result you want. Most of the time, your service 
> file will be very simple and very short, since all the common cases are 
> already covered.
>
> “Simple things should be simple, and complex things should be possible.”
>     -- Alan Kay

According to an automated count (mostly perl -ne 'print $_, "\n" for
/\w+=/g') the current version of systemd supports about 320
directives and people still combine that with start scripts, be this
because their use case still isn't supported or because they didn't want
to be bothered with learning about all the details of this huge, rusted
barbed wire obstacle just for solving a simple problem.

The quote would thus more appropriate be:

Make simple things hideously complicated and complicated things at all
impossible.

-- Lennart Poettering about "How to create problems for other people for one's
   own benefit."

> He was talking about GUI design, but the same applies to systemd. And to a 
> lot of other popular *nix software, while we’re at it.
>
>>> Poettering understands that services don’t just to be started, they al
>>> so need to be managed and shut down cleanly.
>> 
>> Poettering created the wrong solution to the wrong problem.
>
> Lots of sysadmins, and distro maintainers, and developers of service apps, 
> disagree.

Due to human nature, lots of people will always disagree with anything.

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Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2024-11-16 11:26 +0000
  Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2024-11-16 20:51 +0000
    Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastartdlyHQ.org - 2024-11-17 08:41 +0000
      Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Wolfgang Agnes <wagnes@example.com> - 2024-11-17 11:38 -0300
      Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2024-11-17 18:25 +0000
        Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastartdlyHQ.org - 2024-11-17 18:41 +0000
  Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2024-11-17 17:48 +0000
    Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastartdlyHQ.org - 2024-11-17 18:39 +0000
    Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Eric Pozharski <apple.universe@posteo.net> - 2024-11-18 07:54 +0000
      Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-11-18 14:02 +0000
      Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2024-11-18 20:43 +0000
        Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Eric Pozharski <apple.universe@posteo.net> - 2024-11-19 10:07 +0000
  Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou@hotmail.com> - 2024-11-18 03:38 +0100
    Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastartdlyHQ.org - 2024-11-18 08:26 +0000
    Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-18 09:51 +0000
      Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastartdlyHQ.org - 2024-11-18 09:57 +0000
  Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair rlhamil@smart.net (Richard L. Hamilton) - 2024-12-03 05:29 +0000
    Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2024-12-03 08:20 +0000
      Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-03 20:21 +0000
        Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2024-12-04 08:34 +0000
          Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-05 02:11 +0000
            Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2024-12-05 06:44 +0000
              Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2024-12-05 13:15 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2024-12-05 13:57 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2024-12-05 15:06 +0000
            Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Nicolas George <nicolas$george@salle-s.org> - 2024-12-05 08:01 +0000
            Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2024-12-05 08:19 +0000
              Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-05 20:45 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-12-05 21:06 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2024-12-06 10:28 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-06 20:00 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2024-12-06 12:37 -0800
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-12-06 22:15 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2024-12-07 10:04 +0000
                Windows-think and systemd (Was: Something completely unrelated to what we're yapping about now) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2024-12-07 15:00 +0000
                Re: Windows-think and systemd (Was: Something completely unrelated to what we're yapping about now) Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2024-12-07 16:05 +0000
                Re: Windows-think and systemd (Was: Something completely unrelated to what we're yapping about now) rlhamil@smart.net (Richard L. Hamilton) - 2024-12-14 09:09 +0000
                AIX (was Re: Windows-think and systemd) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-12-14 12:24 +0100
                Re: Windows-think and systemd (Was: Something completely unrelated to what we're yapping about now) Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2024-12-08 03:51 +0000
                Re: Windows-think and systemd (Was: Something completely unrelated to what we're yapping about now) Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2024-12-09 20:38 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@talktalk.net> - 2024-12-09 16:24 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair rlhamil@smart.net (Richard L. Hamilton) - 2024-12-14 09:06 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@talktalk.net> - 2024-12-06 17:01 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2024-12-09 20:28 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-10 01:27 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@talktalk.net> - 2024-12-10 21:01 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-10 08:50 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2024-12-10 09:23 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2024-12-10 12:26 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-10 20:55 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@talktalk.net> - 2024-12-10 22:02 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2024-12-11 08:33 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-11 22:26 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2024-12-11 22:40 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Nicolas George <nicolas$george@salle-s.org> - 2024-12-11 23:34 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Alexis <flexibeast@gmail.com> - 2024-12-12 19:15 +1100
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Nicolas George <nicolas$george@salle-s.org> - 2024-12-12 11:46 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-12 08:27 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2024-12-12 09:38 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-12 22:24 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2024-12-13 20:07 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-13 22:05 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2024-12-14 15:20 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-14 22:26 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2024-12-16 23:03 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-17 02:39 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2024-12-18 21:19 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-12-18 22:16 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2024-12-18 22:25 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2024-12-12 08:39 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-12 22:31 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2024-12-13 10:38 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2024-12-13 07:42 -0800
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-14 01:35 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@talktalk.net> - 2024-12-14 20:16 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2024-12-15 12:43 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@talktalk.net> - 2024-12-15 21:25 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2024-12-16 08:16 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-16 19:51 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2024-12-17 08:34 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-17 19:44 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@talktalk.net> - 2024-12-17 17:27 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2024-12-16 07:55 -0800
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-16 20:15 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2024-12-16 12:44 -0800
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2024-12-16 23:07 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-17 02:37 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2024-12-17 08:35 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-17 19:45 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-17 19:48 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-17 20:45 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2024-12-17 22:00 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@talktalk.net> - 2024-12-17 20:54 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@talktalk.net> - 2024-12-17 17:28 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2024-12-14 10:05 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@talktalk.net> - 2024-12-13 11:42 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2024-12-13 20:15 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair rlhamil@smart.net (Richard L. Hamilton) - 2024-12-14 08:52 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2024-12-14 10:09 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-14 22:28 +0000
              Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-05 20:46 +0000
        Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair rlhamil@smart.net (Richard L. Hamilton) - 2024-12-14 08:48 +0000
          Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2024-12-14 10:06 +0000
          macOS and UNIX conformance (was: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair) Geoff Clare <geoff@clare.See-My-Signature.invalid> - 2024-12-16 14:05 +0000
    Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-03 08:38 +0000
    Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-12-03 14:22 +0000

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