Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair

From	Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@talktalk.net>
Newsgroups	comp.unix.programmer
Subject	Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair
Date	2024-12-17 20:54 +0000
Message-ID	<87ldwehvyk.fsf@doppelsaurus.mobileactivedefense.com> (permalink)
References	(16 earlier) <vjind8$3mkah$2@dont-email.me> <20241216075519.00002023@gmail.com> <vjq1o6$19jdn$1@dont-email.me> <slrnvm1clp.adn.jj@iridium.wf32df> <wwvmsgunl98.fsf@LkoBDZeT.terraraq.uk>

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Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> writes:
> Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> writes:
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 16 Dec 2024 07:55:19 -0800, John Ames wrote:
>>>> The fact that people are free to make stupid choices does not mean
>>>> that other people aren't allowed to call out stupidity where they
>>>> see it.
>>>
>>> Notice that all the complaints seem to go in one direction, not the
>>> other?  We only see systemd-haters complaining about those using it,
>>> you don???t see systemd users complaining about those who don???t?
>>
>> No. But I think some of us get a bit pissed at some people making out 
>> that previous inits were (almost) unworkable - which is palpably false.
>
> ‘Unworkable’ may be an exaggeration, but the practical issues and
> functionality gaps were real; even if you didn’t personally experience
> them, other people did. I think there were at least ten different
> attempts to come up with something better in the free software world
> alone. Meanwhile the commercial Unixes largely got their act together
> long before Linux did.

Practical issue and functionality gaps and generally, a load of useless
mess, were real in the rc systems mainstream Linux distributions had
conventionally layered atop of sysvinit. These could have been addressed
in a variety of ways but basically, nobody _working for RedHat_ ever
tried until systemd. Then, RedHat drove the pretty much universal switch
to it, just as it had already driven the switch to sysvinit and to glibc
2 (known as libc6 in Linuxland) before.

> Whether systemd was the best possible design, or just the best option
> available,

or possibly neither of both. It was the RedHat option available and
that's what caused its universal adoption (combined with an extremely
aggressive and extremely unpleasant propaganda campaign by systemd
fanbois --- but without RedHat, these wouldn't have accomplished
anything).

BTW, on of the first things I learnt about systemd after I had to
support it was that it still uses pid files.

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Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2024-11-16 11:26 +0000
  Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2024-11-16 20:51 +0000
    Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastartdlyHQ.org - 2024-11-17 08:41 +0000
      Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Wolfgang Agnes <wagnes@example.com> - 2024-11-17 11:38 -0300
      Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2024-11-17 18:25 +0000
        Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastartdlyHQ.org - 2024-11-17 18:41 +0000
  Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2024-11-17 17:48 +0000
    Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastartdlyHQ.org - 2024-11-17 18:39 +0000
    Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Eric Pozharski <apple.universe@posteo.net> - 2024-11-18 07:54 +0000
      Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-11-18 14:02 +0000
      Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2024-11-18 20:43 +0000
        Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Eric Pozharski <apple.universe@posteo.net> - 2024-11-19 10:07 +0000
  Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou@hotmail.com> - 2024-11-18 03:38 +0100
    Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastartdlyHQ.org - 2024-11-18 08:26 +0000
    Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-18 09:51 +0000
      Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastartdlyHQ.org - 2024-11-18 09:57 +0000
  Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair rlhamil@smart.net (Richard L. Hamilton) - 2024-12-03 05:29 +0000
    Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2024-12-03 08:20 +0000
      Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-03 20:21 +0000
        Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2024-12-04 08:34 +0000
          Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-05 02:11 +0000
            Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2024-12-05 06:44 +0000
              Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2024-12-05 13:15 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2024-12-05 13:57 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2024-12-05 15:06 +0000
            Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Nicolas George <nicolas$george@salle-s.org> - 2024-12-05 08:01 +0000
            Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2024-12-05 08:19 +0000
              Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-05 20:45 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-12-05 21:06 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2024-12-06 10:28 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-06 20:00 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2024-12-06 12:37 -0800
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-12-06 22:15 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2024-12-07 10:04 +0000
                Windows-think and systemd (Was: Something completely unrelated to what we're yapping about now) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2024-12-07 15:00 +0000
                Re: Windows-think and systemd (Was: Something completely unrelated to what we're yapping about now) Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2024-12-07 16:05 +0000
                Re: Windows-think and systemd (Was: Something completely unrelated to what we're yapping about now) rlhamil@smart.net (Richard L. Hamilton) - 2024-12-14 09:09 +0000
                AIX (was Re: Windows-think and systemd) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-12-14 12:24 +0100
                Re: Windows-think and systemd (Was: Something completely unrelated to what we're yapping about now) Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2024-12-08 03:51 +0000
                Re: Windows-think and systemd (Was: Something completely unrelated to what we're yapping about now) Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2024-12-09 20:38 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@talktalk.net> - 2024-12-09 16:24 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair rlhamil@smart.net (Richard L. Hamilton) - 2024-12-14 09:06 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@talktalk.net> - 2024-12-06 17:01 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2024-12-09 20:28 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-10 01:27 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@talktalk.net> - 2024-12-10 21:01 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-10 08:50 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2024-12-10 09:23 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2024-12-10 12:26 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-10 20:55 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@talktalk.net> - 2024-12-10 22:02 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2024-12-11 08:33 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-11 22:26 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2024-12-11 22:40 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Nicolas George <nicolas$george@salle-s.org> - 2024-12-11 23:34 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Alexis <flexibeast@gmail.com> - 2024-12-12 19:15 +1100
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Nicolas George <nicolas$george@salle-s.org> - 2024-12-12 11:46 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-12 08:27 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2024-12-12 09:38 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-12 22:24 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2024-12-13 20:07 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-13 22:05 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2024-12-14 15:20 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-14 22:26 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2024-12-16 23:03 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-17 02:39 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2024-12-18 21:19 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-12-18 22:16 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2024-12-18 22:25 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2024-12-12 08:39 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-12 22:31 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2024-12-13 10:38 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2024-12-13 07:42 -0800
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-14 01:35 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@talktalk.net> - 2024-12-14 20:16 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2024-12-15 12:43 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@talktalk.net> - 2024-12-15 21:25 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2024-12-16 08:16 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-16 19:51 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2024-12-17 08:34 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-17 19:44 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@talktalk.net> - 2024-12-17 17:27 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2024-12-16 07:55 -0800
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-16 20:15 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2024-12-16 12:44 -0800
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2024-12-16 23:07 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-17 02:37 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2024-12-17 08:35 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-17 19:45 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-17 19:48 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-17 20:45 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2024-12-17 22:00 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@talktalk.net> - 2024-12-17 20:54 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@talktalk.net> - 2024-12-17 17:28 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2024-12-14 10:05 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@talktalk.net> - 2024-12-13 11:42 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2024-12-13 20:15 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair rlhamil@smart.net (Richard L. Hamilton) - 2024-12-14 08:52 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2024-12-14 10:09 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-14 22:28 +0000
              Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-05 20:46 +0000
        Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair rlhamil@smart.net (Richard L. Hamilton) - 2024-12-14 08:48 +0000
          Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2024-12-14 10:06 +0000
          macOS and UNIX conformance (was: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair) Geoff Clare <geoff@clare.See-My-Signature.invalid> - 2024-12-16 14:05 +0000
    Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-03 08:38 +0000
    Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-12-03 14:22 +0000

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