Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair

From	Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@talktalk.net>
Newsgroups	comp.unix.programmer
Subject	Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair
Date	2024-12-10 22:02 +0000
Message-ID	<87r06fjixa.fsf@doppelsaurus.mobileactivedefense.com> (permalink)
References	(7 earlier) <vit3dg$1quau$1@dont-email.me> <slrnvleknf.apv.jj@iridium.wf32df> <wwvfrmv3os3.fsf@LkoBDZeT.terraraq.uk> <vj91a1$t8pn$1@dont-email.me> <vja9r8$14k6s$1@dont-email.me>

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Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
> On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 09:23:13 -0000 (UTC), Muttley wrote:
>
>> But the core part should really just be limited to starting the
>> machine and getting enough things running for a user to log on (or
>> if its a black box to do its task).
>
> One thing lacking from sysvinit is, while it can start a service, it
> cannot ensure the service was started properly, and it cannot perform
> reliable service shutdown. So the job of service management was really
> only half-done.

sysvinit has no concept of 'service.'

"Service started properly" is a pointless historical property because
"service was running propery 1ms" ago doesn't mean "service is still
running properly now" (that's one of the classic TOCTOU races everybody
just loves to ignore).

It's unclear what "reliable service shutdown" is supposed to mean. It's
possible to stop a somehow monitored process (not service) reliably (or
sort-of reliably) by killing it if it didn't terminate on its own
within some amount of time after a SIGTERM was sent to it. This works
perfectly with a special-purpose tool for that and doesn't need any
giant wolpertingers implemented with hundredthousands of lines of
overcomplicated C code.

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Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2024-11-16 11:26 +0000
  Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2024-11-16 20:51 +0000
    Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastartdlyHQ.org - 2024-11-17 08:41 +0000
      Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Wolfgang Agnes <wagnes@example.com> - 2024-11-17 11:38 -0300
      Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2024-11-17 18:25 +0000
        Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastartdlyHQ.org - 2024-11-17 18:41 +0000
  Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2024-11-17 17:48 +0000
    Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastartdlyHQ.org - 2024-11-17 18:39 +0000
    Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Eric Pozharski <apple.universe@posteo.net> - 2024-11-18 07:54 +0000
      Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-11-18 14:02 +0000
      Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2024-11-18 20:43 +0000
        Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Eric Pozharski <apple.universe@posteo.net> - 2024-11-19 10:07 +0000
  Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou@hotmail.com> - 2024-11-18 03:38 +0100
    Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastartdlyHQ.org - 2024-11-18 08:26 +0000
    Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-18 09:51 +0000
      Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastartdlyHQ.org - 2024-11-18 09:57 +0000
  Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair rlhamil@smart.net (Richard L. Hamilton) - 2024-12-03 05:29 +0000
    Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2024-12-03 08:20 +0000
      Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-03 20:21 +0000
        Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2024-12-04 08:34 +0000
          Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-05 02:11 +0000
            Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2024-12-05 06:44 +0000
              Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2024-12-05 13:15 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2024-12-05 13:57 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2024-12-05 15:06 +0000
            Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Nicolas George <nicolas$george@salle-s.org> - 2024-12-05 08:01 +0000
            Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2024-12-05 08:19 +0000
              Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-05 20:45 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-12-05 21:06 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2024-12-06 10:28 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-06 20:00 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2024-12-06 12:37 -0800
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-12-06 22:15 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2024-12-07 10:04 +0000
                Windows-think and systemd (Was: Something completely unrelated to what we're yapping about now) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2024-12-07 15:00 +0000
                Re: Windows-think and systemd (Was: Something completely unrelated to what we're yapping about now) Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2024-12-07 16:05 +0000
                Re: Windows-think and systemd (Was: Something completely unrelated to what we're yapping about now) rlhamil@smart.net (Richard L. Hamilton) - 2024-12-14 09:09 +0000
                AIX (was Re: Windows-think and systemd) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-12-14 12:24 +0100
                Re: Windows-think and systemd (Was: Something completely unrelated to what we're yapping about now) Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2024-12-08 03:51 +0000
                Re: Windows-think and systemd (Was: Something completely unrelated to what we're yapping about now) Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2024-12-09 20:38 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@talktalk.net> - 2024-12-09 16:24 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair rlhamil@smart.net (Richard L. Hamilton) - 2024-12-14 09:06 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@talktalk.net> - 2024-12-06 17:01 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2024-12-09 20:28 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-10 01:27 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@talktalk.net> - 2024-12-10 21:01 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-10 08:50 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2024-12-10 09:23 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2024-12-10 12:26 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-10 20:55 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@talktalk.net> - 2024-12-10 22:02 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2024-12-11 08:33 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-11 22:26 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2024-12-11 22:40 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Nicolas George <nicolas$george@salle-s.org> - 2024-12-11 23:34 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Alexis <flexibeast@gmail.com> - 2024-12-12 19:15 +1100
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Nicolas George <nicolas$george@salle-s.org> - 2024-12-12 11:46 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-12 08:27 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2024-12-12 09:38 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-12 22:24 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2024-12-13 20:07 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-13 22:05 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2024-12-14 15:20 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-14 22:26 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2024-12-16 23:03 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-17 02:39 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2024-12-18 21:19 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-12-18 22:16 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2024-12-18 22:25 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2024-12-12 08:39 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-12 22:31 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2024-12-13 10:38 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2024-12-13 07:42 -0800
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-14 01:35 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@talktalk.net> - 2024-12-14 20:16 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2024-12-15 12:43 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@talktalk.net> - 2024-12-15 21:25 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2024-12-16 08:16 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-16 19:51 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2024-12-17 08:34 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-17 19:44 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@talktalk.net> - 2024-12-17 17:27 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2024-12-16 07:55 -0800
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-16 20:15 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2024-12-16 12:44 -0800
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2024-12-16 23:07 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-17 02:37 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2024-12-17 08:35 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-17 19:45 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-17 19:48 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-17 20:45 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2024-12-17 22:00 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@talktalk.net> - 2024-12-17 20:54 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@talktalk.net> - 2024-12-17 17:28 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2024-12-14 10:05 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@talktalk.net> - 2024-12-13 11:42 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2024-12-13 20:15 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair rlhamil@smart.net (Richard L. Hamilton) - 2024-12-14 08:52 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2024-12-14 10:09 +0000
                Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-14 22:28 +0000
              Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-05 20:46 +0000
        Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair rlhamil@smart.net (Richard L. Hamilton) - 2024-12-14 08:48 +0000
          Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2024-12-14 10:06 +0000
          macOS and UNIX conformance (was: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair) Geoff Clare <geoff@clare.See-My-Signature.invalid> - 2024-12-16 14:05 +0000
    Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-03 08:38 +0000
    Re: Faking a TTY on a pipe/socketpair scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-12-03 14:22 +0000

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