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Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism)

Subject Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism)
Newsgroups comp.theory, comp.ai.philosophy, comp.ai.nat-lang, sci.lang.semantics
References (19 earlier) <b_CdnZ8saaCEzWbDnZ2dnUU7-bvNnZ2d@giganews.com> <D_OdndGTIuCA7WbDnZ2dnUU7-XudnZ2d@giganews.com> <V-2dnfpb7d4N6WbDnZ2dnUU7-emdnZ2d@giganews.com> <fP6dnWb7Or0-L2bDnZ2dnUU7-fGdnZ2d@giganews.com> <rdgfd3$5un$1@dont-email.me>
From olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com>
Date 2020-06-30 18:24 -0500
Message-ID <BtqdnerACf8xVGbDnZ2dnUU7-WHNnZ2d@giganews.com> (permalink)

Cross-posted to 4 groups.

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On 6/30/2020 5:46 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
> On 2020-06-30 15:46, olcott wrote:
>> On 6/30/2020 12:21 PM, olcott wrote:

>>>>>>> -- (G) F ⊢ GF ↔ ¬ProvF(⌈GF⌉). // Original
>>>>>>> -- (G) F ⊢ GF ↔ ¬ProvF(GF).     // Remove arithmetization
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Before even attempting to address this you'll need to explain 
>>>>>> exactly why it is that you believe you can simply remove the 
>>>>>> ceiling brackets from Raatikainen's example.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Removing arithmetization gets rid of a very huge load of purely
>>>>> extraneous complexity. We don't have to artificially contrive that the
>>>>> language of arithmetic has much more expressive power than it really
>>>>> does, we simply use a formal language that has all the expressive 
>>>>> power
>>>>> that we actually need: *Provability is intrinsic rather than 
>>>>> extrinsic to the system. *
> 
> Why are there three extra levels of quotation here? 

Google Groups makes every repeated line invisible so every time that I 
have to repeat what I said I have to add -- or .. to make it show up.

> Did you reply to 
> yourself three times before actually sending your response? This makes 
> it virtually impossible to follow your reply.
> 

Google groups was having a bug and the formatting was not working 
correctly. I replied to myself until the formatting was correct and then 
the next few times Google didn't post my messages at all. A few hours 
later it finally posted the original messages.

> Moreover, the above doesn't answer my question. Why do you think it is 
> logically justifiable to simply drop the ceiling brackets from ⌈GF⌉?

The two proofs have logically equivalent provability.

> 
> I know you like to throw around the term 'extraneous complexity' but as 
> far as I can tell you simply use that term to mean 'stuff I don't 
> understand'.
> 
> Something is 'extraneous' if removing it has no effect on the meaning. 
> The ceiling brackets are not extraneous.

The two proofs have logically equivalent provability.



-- 
Copyright 2020 Pete Olcott

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Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-26 20:03 -0500
  Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2020-06-26 20:53 -0700
    Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-26 23:46 -0500
      Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2020-06-26 22:54 -0700
        Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-27 11:04 -0500
    Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 Alan Smaill <smaill@SPAMinf.ed.ac.uk> - 2020-06-27 10:24 +0100
      Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-27 11:14 -0500
        Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2020-06-27 09:38 -0700
          Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-27 11:58 -0500
            Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2020-06-27 11:54 -0700
              Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-27 15:26 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2020-06-27 14:52 -0700
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-27 17:09 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2020-06-27 17:43 -0700
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-27 19:46 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-27 20:15 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2020-06-27 22:11 -0700
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-28 16:32 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2020-06-28 14:43 -0700
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-28 16:59 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-28 20:18 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-28 21:45 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-28 21:27 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-28 21:59 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-29 00:48 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-28 23:57 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-29 13:28 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-29 12:33 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-29 14:33 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-29 13:52 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-29 15:02 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-29 14:14 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-29 15:39 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-29 15:13 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-29 17:09 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-29 21:21 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-30 01:09 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-30 00:24 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-30 16:46 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-30 16:46 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-30 18:24 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-30 18:15 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-30 19:33 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-30 19:18 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-30 20:34 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-30 20:06 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-30 21:31 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-30 20:54 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-01 11:03 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-01 10:35 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-01 17:35 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) Chris Buckley <alan@sabir.com> - 2020-07-01 22:47 +0000
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-02 07:01 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-02 10:51 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-02 10:46 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-02 13:59 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-02 13:37 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) Alan Smaill <smaill@SPAMinf.ed.ac.uk> - 2020-07-02 08:53 +0100
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-02 09:52 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) Chris Buckley <alan@sabir.com> - 2020-07-02 15:06 +0000
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-02 10:56 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) Chris Buckley <alan@sabir.com> - 2020-07-02 22:52 +0000
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-02 18:35 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) Chris Buckley <alan@sabir.com> - 2020-07-02 23:48 +0000
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-02 18:57 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2020-07-02 19:22 -0700
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-02 22:03 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-02 23:13 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-03 00:36 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-02 23:43 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-03 12:50 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-03 12:19 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-03 13:21 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-03 12:33 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-03 13:48 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-03 13:55 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-03 13:06 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-03 13:07 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-03 12:56 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-03 14:14 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-03 13:38 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-03 15:59 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-03 22:54 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-04 08:56 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-04 08:12 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-04 10:06 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-04 09:31 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V20 (Text Analysis) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-04 14:31 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V20 (Text Analysis) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-04 15:17 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V20 (Text Analysis) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-04 17:29 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-05 13:01 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-07-05 16:40 -0700
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-05 23:52 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-07-06 00:53 -0700
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-06 10:15 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak) David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2020-07-06 08:33 -0700
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-06 11:49 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-06 11:27 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-07 22:22 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-06 10:48 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-06 13:55 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-07 22:13 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-07 22:44 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) Alan Smaill <smaill@SPAMinf.ed.ac.uk> - 2020-06-30 11:17 +0100
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-30 08:44 -0500

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