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Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak)

Subject Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak)
Newsgroups comp.theory, comp.ai.philosophy, comp.ai.nat-lang, sci.lang.semantics
References (17 earlier) <rdq2o6$kjr$1@dont-email.me> <_LqdnXUL8tmZBp3CnZ2dnUU7-aXNnZ2d@giganews.com> <rdq7c2$hhv$1@dont-email.me> <R9SdnQ9mEaMTiJ_CnZ2dnUU7-UnNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87zh8dbkev.fsf@nosuchdomain.example.com>
From olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com>
Date 2020-07-05 23:52 -0500
Message-ID <3I-dnWs52teNM5_CnZ2dnUU7-Y3NnZ2d@giganews.com> (permalink)

Cross-posted to 4 groups.

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On 7/5/2020 6:40 PM, Keith Thompson wrote:
> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>> On 7/4/2020 10:31 AM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>> On 2020-07-04 09:06, olcott wrote:
> [...]
>>>> Whenever-so-ever there is no connected chain of inference from the
>>>> WFF premises to the WFF conclusion we have an invalid argument.
>>>
>>> But how does that help get around incompleteness?
>>
>> In order to use the term "incompleteness" correctly and not as
>> misnomer a thing must be incomplete relative to something that is
>> missing.
> 
> Why?
> 
>> When Q lacks commutativity then Q is incomplete relative to
>> commutativity. To assign terms of the art tho meanings having nothing
>> to do with their base meaning is a bastardization of the communication
>> process.
> 
> No, it's a use of well defined terminology in a technical field.
> 
> There is a long tradition in technical fields of redefining English
> words with narrower and more precise meanings.  (I could give you
> multiple examples from computer science.)  We can either repurpose
> existing words or invent new ones.  Experience has generally shown
> that repurposing existing words tends to work better.
> 
It is all well and good if the technical meaning inherits from the 
common base meaning providing increased specificity. It is when the 
technical meaning replaces the common meaning with an incompatible 
meaning that I find very disturbing.

When we make this perfectly concrete and use this definition of 
incompleteness, that would make perfect sense (iff it was true):

On 7/5/2020 5:28 PM, David Kleinecke wrote:
 >
 > Then Goedel showed that that there were propositions that were true
 > but not provable.

On the other hand the inability of a formal system to prove that 
self-contradictory expressions of language are true or false does not 
actually make the formal system incomplete in any way what-so-ever.

If this make formal systems incomplete then the formal system of human 
knowledge would be incomplete entirely on the basis of not being able to 
prove the liar paradox true or false: "this sentence is not true".

Therefore this The conventional definition of incompleteness:
A theory T is incomplete if and only if there is some sentence φ such 
that (T ⊬ φ) and (T ⊬ ¬φ) is no good. It has overreach.

See V24 for proof that there are no propostions that are both true and 
unprovable within the same formal system when formal systems are 
required to conform to the sound deductive inference model.


-- 
Copyright 2020 Pete Olcott

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Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-26 20:03 -0500
  Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2020-06-26 20:53 -0700
    Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-26 23:46 -0500
      Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2020-06-26 22:54 -0700
        Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-27 11:04 -0500
    Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 Alan Smaill <smaill@SPAMinf.ed.ac.uk> - 2020-06-27 10:24 +0100
      Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-27 11:14 -0500
        Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2020-06-27 09:38 -0700
          Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-27 11:58 -0500
            Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2020-06-27 11:54 -0700
              Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-27 15:26 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2020-06-27 14:52 -0700
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-27 17:09 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2020-06-27 17:43 -0700
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-27 19:46 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-27 20:15 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2020-06-27 22:11 -0700
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-28 16:32 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2020-06-28 14:43 -0700
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-28 16:59 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-28 20:18 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-28 21:45 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-28 21:27 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-28 21:59 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-29 00:48 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-28 23:57 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-29 13:28 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-29 12:33 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-29 14:33 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-29 13:52 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-29 15:02 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-29 14:14 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-29 15:39 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-29 15:13 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-29 17:09 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-29 21:21 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-30 01:09 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-30 00:24 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-30 16:46 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-30 16:46 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-30 18:24 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-30 18:15 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-30 19:33 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-30 19:18 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-30 20:34 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-30 20:06 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-30 21:31 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-30 20:54 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-01 11:03 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-01 10:35 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-01 17:35 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) Chris Buckley <alan@sabir.com> - 2020-07-01 22:47 +0000
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-02 07:01 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-02 10:51 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-02 10:46 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-02 13:59 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-02 13:37 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) Alan Smaill <smaill@SPAMinf.ed.ac.uk> - 2020-07-02 08:53 +0100
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-02 09:52 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) Chris Buckley <alan@sabir.com> - 2020-07-02 15:06 +0000
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-02 10:56 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) Chris Buckley <alan@sabir.com> - 2020-07-02 22:52 +0000
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-02 18:35 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) Chris Buckley <alan@sabir.com> - 2020-07-02 23:48 +0000
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-02 18:57 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2020-07-02 19:22 -0700
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-02 22:03 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-02 23:13 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-03 00:36 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-02 23:43 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-03 12:50 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-03 12:19 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-03 13:21 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-03 12:33 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-03 13:48 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-03 13:55 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-03 13:06 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-03 13:07 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-03 12:56 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-03 14:14 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-03 13:38 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-03 15:59 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-03 22:54 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-04 08:56 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-04 08:12 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-04 10:06 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-04 09:31 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V20 (Text Analysis) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-04 14:31 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V20 (Text Analysis) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-04 15:17 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V20 (Text Analysis) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-04 17:29 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-05 13:01 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-07-05 16:40 -0700
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-05 23:52 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-07-06 00:53 -0700
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-06 10:15 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak) David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2020-07-06 08:33 -0700
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-06 11:49 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-06 11:27 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-07 22:22 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-06 10:48 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-06 13:55 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-07 22:13 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-07 22:44 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) Alan Smaill <smaill@SPAMinf.ed.ac.uk> - 2020-06-30 11:17 +0100
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-30 08:44 -0500

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