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More mailbox problems with Mail

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  More mailbox problems with Mail Patty Winter <patty1@wintertime.com> - 2017-03-15 22:54 +0000
    Re: More mailbox problems with Mail Patty Winter <patty1@wintertime.com> - 2017-03-16 15:17 +0000
      Re: More mailbox problems with Mail Nelson <nelson@nowhere.com> - 2017-03-16 13:38 -0400
    Re: More mailbox problems with Mail Nelson <nelson@nowhere.com> - 2017-03-16 13:18 -0400
      Re: More mailbox problems with Mail Patty Winter <patty1@wintertime.com> - 2017-03-16 18:57 +0000
        Re: More mailbox problems with Mail Nelson <nelson@nowhere.com> - 2017-03-16 15:30 -0400
          Re: More mailbox problems with Mail Patty Winter <patty1@wintertime.com> - 2017-03-16 22:19 +0000
            Re: More mailbox problems with Mail Nelson <nelson@nowhere.com> - 2017-03-16 18:44 -0400
              Re: More mailbox problems with Mail Patty Winter <patty1@wintertime.com> - 2017-03-16 22:59 +0000
                Re: More mailbox problems with Mail Nelson <nelson@nowhere.com> - 2017-03-16 19:32 -0400
                  Re: More mailbox problems with Mail Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2017-03-16 23:41 +0000
                Re: More mailbox problems with Mail Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2017-03-16 23:36 +0000
                  Re: More mailbox problems with Mail Patty Winter <patty1@wintertime.com> - 2017-03-17 06:10 +0000
                    Re: More mailbox problems with Mail Nelson <nelson@nowhere.com> - 2017-03-17 03:54 -0400
                      Re: More mailbox problems with Mail Patty Winter <patty1@wintertime.com> - 2017-03-17 17:04 +0000
                    Re: More mailbox problems with Mail Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2017-03-17 15:40 +0000
                      Re: More mailbox problems with Mail Patty Winter <patty1@wintertime.com> - 2017-03-17 17:00 +0000
                        Re: More mailbox problems with Mail Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2017-03-17 17:31 +0000
                          Re: More mailbox problems with Mail Patty Winter <patty1@wintertime.com> - 2017-03-17 20:51 +0000
                            Re: More mailbox problems with Mail Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2017-03-17 22:23 +0000
                              Re: More mailbox problems with Mail Patty Winter <patty1@wintertime.com> - 2017-03-18 01:40 +0000
                                Re: More mailbox problems with Mail Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2017-03-18 04:16 +0000
                                  Re: More mailbox problems with Mail Patty Winter <patty1@wintertime.com> - 2017-03-18 05:18 +0000
                                    Re: More mailbox problems with Mail Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2017-03-18 15:01 +0000
                  Re: More mailbox problems with Mail Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2017-03-18 14:52 +0000
            Re: More mailbox problems with Mail Alrescha <alrescha@gmail.com> - 2017-03-16 21:28 -0400
              Re: More mailbox problems with Mail Patty Winter <patty1@wintertime.com> - 2017-03-17 05:37 +0000
            Re: More mailbox problems with Mail Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> - 2017-03-17 11:36 -0400

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#102398 — More mailbox problems with Mail

After last week's iMac upgrade from Snow Leopard to El Capitan and the
concurrent switch from Eudora to Apple Mail, it took me a few tries
to get the mailbox structure sorted out. All was going well until today, 
when I upgraded to Sierra.

All of my "On My Mac" mailboxes have disappeared, and Mail is ignoring
the PATH command in preferences, so I'm getting a bunch of repetitive
mailboxes from my server.

As a refresher, here's the nice clean structure of Mail on my MacBook,
which I'm trying to replicate on my iMac (and had succeeded until this
morning):

http://www.wintertime.com/Personal/AppleMail/MacBook-NewMailboxes.png

And here's the mishmosh I'm now seeing on my iMac:

http://www.wintertime.com/Personal/AppleMail/iMac-NewMailboxes.png

I think the problem may be related to the lack of the "INBOX" path
in the mailbox structure. Here's what the Mailbox Behaviors list
looks like on the MacBook:

http://www.wintertime.com/Personal/AppleMail/MB-behaviors-MacBook.png

But here's what it looks like on the iMac:

http://www.wintertime.com/Personal/AppleMail/iMac-MB-behaviors-list.png

No "INBOX" prefix, and not even a proper Sent mailbox defined. Here's
a closer look at the Sent Mailbox settings:

http://www.wintertime.com/Personal/AppleMail/iMac-MB-behaviors-SentMailbox.png

I verified in my Internet account settings that the "INBOX" Path Prefix
survived the transition to Sierra, and I even quit and relaunched Mail,
but it just isn't taking. How can I get it to work?

Problem 2 is that none of my On My Mac mailboxes are showing up, as
you can see from the "new mailboxes" screenshot. Is this just some
display problem in Mail, or do I need to re-import all of them? I
checked ~/Library/Mail and they're all there, thank goodness. I even
just copied the entire Mailboxes folder to an attached drive that I 
keep for special backups (despite that fact that I already have full 
Time Machine backups). So the mailboxes are safe and I can re import 
them if necessary, but sheesh, it shouldn't be.


Patty

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#102420

No one has any ideas for getting Mail to recognize the "INBOX"
path prefix? This is a real puzzler because both the OS and Mail
are the same versions that are showing different mailbox behaviors
on my MacBook.


Patty

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#102424

On Thu, 16 Mar 2017 11:17:13 -0400, Patty Winter wrote
(in article <oaea9p$rhp$1@dont-email.me>):

> No one has any ideas for getting Mail to recognize the "INBOX"
> path prefix? This is a real puzzler because both the OS and Mail
> are the same versions that are showing different mailbox behaviors
> on my MacBook.

> 
http://www.wintertime.com/Personal/AppleMail/iMac-MB-behaviors-
SentMailbox.png

My Mailbox Behaviors preference tab doesn't look anything like yours. 
I'm guessing it's because I only use POP accounts and you are using 
IMAP accounts.

BTW, it took some research to even find out how to set up a POP account 
in Sierra :)  They don't make it easy.  I also set up all the accounts 
from scratch and then imported the mboxes from Snow Leopard and 
arranged them how I wanted.  You might try that although it's a pain in 
the ass.

Your PATHs look very strange.  Why would the Sent Mailbox be in the 
Inbox folder?

Maybe you could create a temporary new user and set up Mail for that 
user from scratch and see what you get.  My guess is that everything 
got scroggled with all the upgrade transformations you went through.  I 
did a clean install.

-- 
Nelson

-- 
Nelson

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#102423

On Wed, 15 Mar 2017 18:54:47 -0400, Patty Winter wrote
(in article <oacgnn$v41$1@dont-email.me>):

> 
http://www.wintertime.com/Personal/AppleMail/iMac-MB-behaviors-
SentMailbox.png

My Mailbox Behaviors preference tab doesn't look anything like yours. 
I'm guessing it's because I only use POP accounts and you are using 
IMAP accounts.

BTW, it took some research to even find out how to set up a POP account 
in Sierra :)  They don't make it easy.  I also set up all the accounts 
from scratch and then imported the mboxes from Snow Leopard and 
arranged them how I wanted.  You might try that although it's a pain in 
the ass.

Your PATHs look very strange.  Why would the Sent Mailbox be in the 
Inbox folder?

Maybe you could create a temporary new user and set up Mail for that 
user from scratch and see what you get.  My guess is that everything 
got scroggled with all the upgrade transformations you went through.  I 
did a clean install.

-- 
Nelson

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#102428

In article <0001HW.D4F04120018BF2BBB02919BF@news.astraweb.com>,
Nelson  <nelson@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>Your PATHs look very strange.  Why would the Sent Mailbox be in the 
>Inbox folder?

It isn't. "Sent" and "Trash" are at the same level of the hierarchy
as "Inbox." 


>Maybe you could create a temporary new user and set up Mail for that 
>user from scratch and see what you get.  My guess is that everything 
>got scroggled with all the upgrade transformations you went through.  I 
>did a clean install.

A new user on the iMac?

I can't for the life of me figure out why Mail is behaving differently
on the iMac than on my MacBook. I thought about deleting some plist
files, but Mail has a bunch of them scattered around ~/Library, so I'm 
not sure which ones could be affecting the path prefix and the mailbox 
hierarchy.


Patty

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#102429

On Thu, 16 Mar 2017 14:57:00 -0400, Patty Winter wrote
(in article <oaen5s$dvb$1@dont-email.me>):

> 
> In article <0001HW.D4F04120018BF2BBB02919BF@news.astraweb.com>,
> Nelson  <nelson@nowhere.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Your PATHs look very strange.  Why would the Sent Mailbox be in the 
>> Inbox folder?
> 
> It isn't. "Sent" and "Trash" are at the same level of the hierarchy
> as "Inbox." 
> 
> 
>> Maybe you could create a temporary new user and set up Mail for that 
>> user from scratch and see what you get.  My guess is that everything 
>> got scroggled with all the upgrade transformations you went through.  I 
>> did a clean install.
> 
> A new user on the iMac?

Sure.  Set up a temporary account and you will get a virgin Mail 
client, then set up one of your mail accounts to see if it behaves any 
different.  You can then compare it with your main user account.


-- 
Nelson

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#102438

In article <0001HW.D4F05FFD01932E77B02919BF@news.astraweb.com>,
Nelson  <nelson@nowhere.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 16 Mar 2017 14:57:00 -0400, Patty Winter wrote
>(in article <oaen5s$dvb$1@dont-email.me>):
>
>> A new user on the iMac?
>
>Sure.  Set up a temporary account and you will get a virgin Mail 
>client, then set up one of your mail accounts to see if it behaves any 
>different.  You can then compare it with your main user account.

Okay, that was a good idea. Turns out that my iMac still has some
other user accounts I set up in the past, so I used my cat's admin
account to log in. I then set up Mail to work with my Sonic email
account, and the mailboxes came up fine, "INBOX" prefix and all.

So that throws suspicion on a corrupted preferences file somewhere
in my user account, right? But if so, which one(s)? As I mentioned,
Mail has quite a few plist files scattered throughout different
folders in ~/Library.


Patty

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#102439

On Thu, 16 Mar 2017 18:19:01 -0400, Patty Winter wrote
(in article <oaf30l$r12$1@dont-email.me>):

> 
> In article <0001HW.D4F05FFD01932E77B02919BF@news.astraweb.com>,
> Nelson  <nelson@nowhere.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 16 Mar 2017 14:57:00 -0400, Patty Winter wrote
>> (in article <oaen5s$dvb$1@dont-email.me>):
>> 
>>> A new user on the iMac?
>> 
>> Sure.  Set up a temporary account and you will get a virgin Mail 
>> client, then set up one of your mail accounts to see if it behaves any 
>> different.  You can then compare it with your main user account.
> 
> Okay, that was a good idea. Turns out that my iMac still has some
> other user accounts I set up in the past, so I used my cat's admin
> account to log in. I then set up Mail to work with my Sonic email
> account, and the mailboxes came up fine, "INBOX" prefix and all.
> 
> So that throws suspicion on a corrupted preferences file somewhere
> in my user account, right? But if so, which one(s)? As I mentioned,
> Mail has quite a few plist files scattered throughout different
> folders in ~/Library.

There is a lot more that could be wrong than the plist files.  And even 
if it is a plist file how would you know how to fix it?  In my 
experience sometimes it's easier to just start from scratch.  Delete 
everything, rebuild the accounts from scratch and then re-import the 
mboxes one by one.  Tedious, I know.  But you will probably spend more 
time trying to figure out what is wrong and trying to fix it.  And by 
doing it that way, one by one, if something goes haywire, you'll catch 
it immediately.

My guess is that somewhere in the multiple upgrades it got screwed up.

Long shot, but have you tried rebuilding the mailboxes?

Other than that, I'm out if ideas :)

-- 
Nelson

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#102443

In article <0001HW.D4F08D79019DD75CB02919BF@news.astraweb.com>,
Nelson  <nelson@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>There is a lot more that could be wrong than the plist files.  And even 
>if it is a plist file how would you know how to fix it?  In my 
>experience sometimes it's easier to just start from scratch.  Delete 
>everything, rebuild the accounts from scratch and then re-import the 
>mboxes one by one.  Tedious, I know.  But you will probably spend more 
>time trying to figure out what is wrong and trying to fix it.  And by 
>doing it that way, one by one, if something goes haywire, you'll catch 
>it immediately.

What do you mean by "delete everything"? I don't think I can delete
Mail, and anyway, since it's working for a different user, the basic
Mail setup can't be the problem.

I tried deleting my IMAP account, but my only choices were to disable
it or to remove it from all of my computers. I certainly don't want
to do the latter.


>My guess is that somewhere in the multiple upgrades it got screwed up.

Definitely. It was running fine under El Cap.

>Long shot, but have you tried rebuilding the mailboxes?

Yes, I tried that yesterday. As I suspected, it didn't work, because
the mailboxes themselves are fine; they're just being pulled from the
server incorrectly.


Patty

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#102444

On Thu, 16 Mar 2017 18:59:41 -0400, Patty Winter wrote
(in article <oaf5ct$289$1@dont-email.me>):

> 
> In article <0001HW.D4F08D79019DD75CB02919BF@news.astraweb.com>,
> Nelson  <nelson@nowhere.com> wrote:
>> 
>> There is a lot more that could be wrong than the plist files.  And even 
>> if it is a plist file how would you know how to fix it?  In my 
>> experience sometimes it's easier to just start from scratch.  Delete 
>> everything, rebuild the accounts from scratch and then re-import the 
>> mboxes one by one.  Tedious, I know.  But you will probably spend more 
>> time trying to figure out what is wrong and trying to fix it.  And by 
>> doing it that way, one by one, if something goes haywire, you'll catch 
>> it immediately.
> 
> What do you mean by "delete everything"? I don't think I can delete
> Mail, and anyway, since it's working for a different user, the basic
> Mail setup can't be the problem.
> 
> I tried deleting my IMAP account, but my only choices were to disable
> it or to remove it from all of my computers. I certainly don't want
> to do the latter.

Ahh.  You have them all synched up with iCloud.  My idea was to get 
back to the point where you would be if you had done a clean install of 
Sierra and then rebuild the accounts.

I wonder if it was synching with the iCloud that screwed your mail 
accounts up.  You probably have to have the same structure on all the 
served machines.  I don't use iCloud, so I can't help you.  It would 
seem that if you bought a new Mac with Sierra installed, it would 
automagically synch up your Mail client with the iCloud, no?

If it were me, I'd try to turn iCloud off temporarily, delete all the 
mail accounts, and then turn it back on.  Then your Mail should synch 
up with the Mail accounts from your other devices in the cloud.

That would be my theory. But I'm just guessing.  What could possibly go 
wrong, eh?  :)

Maybe try turning iCloud on in your cat's account and see if everything 
magically appears?  I really have no idea how that would work.  Two 
users with the same iCloud ID on the same machine?  Hmm.

-- 
Nelson

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#102448

On 2017-03-16, Nelson <nelson@nowhere.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Mar 2017 18:59:41 -0400, Patty Winter wrote
> (in article <oaf5ct$289$1@dont-email.me>):
>
>> In article <0001HW.D4F08D79019DD75CB02919BF@news.astraweb.com>,
>> Nelson  <nelson@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> There is a lot more that could be wrong than the plist files.  And even 
>>> if it is a plist file how would you know how to fix it?  In my 
>>> experience sometimes it's easier to just start from scratch.  Delete 
>>> everything, rebuild the accounts from scratch and then re-import the 
>>> mboxes one by one.  Tedious, I know.  But you will probably spend more 
>>> time trying to figure out what is wrong and trying to fix it.  And by 
>>> doing it that way, one by one, if something goes haywire, you'll catch 
>>> it immediately.
>> 
>> What do you mean by "delete everything"? I don't think I can delete
>> Mail, and anyway, since it's working for a different user, the basic
>> Mail setup can't be the problem.
>> 
>> I tried deleting my IMAP account, but my only choices were to disable
>> it or to remove it from all of my computers. I certainly don't want
>> to do the latter.
>
> Ahh.  You have them all synched up with iCloud.  My idea was to get 
> back to the point where you would be if you had done a clean install of 
> Sierra and then rebuild the accounts.
>
> I wonder if it was synching with the iCloud that screwed your mail 
> accounts up.  You probably have to have the same structure on all the 
> served machines.  I don't use iCloud, so I can't help you.  It would 
> seem that if you bought a new Mac with Sierra installed, it would 
> automagically synch up your Mail client with the iCloud, no?

It's a setting at System Preferences > iCloud > Mail.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

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#102447

On 2017-03-16, Patty Winter <patty1@wintertime.com> wrote:
>
> In article <0001HW.D4F08D79019DD75CB02919BF@news.astraweb.com>,
> Nelson  <nelson@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>
>>There is a lot more that could be wrong than the plist files.  And even 
>>if it is a plist file how would you know how to fix it?  In my 
>>experience sometimes it's easier to just start from scratch.  Delete 
>>everything, rebuild the accounts from scratch and then re-import the 
>>mboxes one by one.  Tedious, I know.  But you will probably spend more 
>>time trying to figure out what is wrong and trying to fix it.  And by 
>>doing it that way, one by one, if something goes haywire, you'll catch 
>>it immediately.
>
> What do you mean by "delete everything"? I don't think I can delete
> Mail, and anyway, since it's working for a different user, the basic
> Mail setup can't be the problem.

He probably meant to delete all of the accounts, and add them again.

> I tried deleting my IMAP account, but my only choices were to disable
> it or to remove it from all of my computers. I certainly don't want
> to do the latter.

But that shouldn't be a problem since you will be adding it again
afterwards and the actual messages are stored on the IMAP server, right?

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

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#102473

In article <ej0lsjFm809U3@mid.individual.net>,
Jolly Roger  <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>On 2017-03-16, Patty Winter <patty1@wintertime.com> wrote:
>>
>> I tried deleting my IMAP account, but my only choices were to disable
>> it or to remove it from all of my computers. I certainly don't want
>> to do the latter.
>
>But that shouldn't be a problem since you will be adding it again
>afterwards and the actual messages are stored on the IMAP server, right?

Right, what could possibly go wrong? :-)

I just hated to risk anything going wrong on my MacBook, which has
been behaving well and acting as a guide for what I wanted my iMac
to do. But I just took the plunge, and everything turned out okay.

I found a page on Apple's support site about iCloud Keychain,
which is the program I got that warning from. By following the
instructions to activate it, I figured out how to deactivate it.
Under System Preferences --> iCloud, "Keychain" was checked on
my MacBook Air. (But not on my iMac, which is weird. I don't know
how my iMac knew about Keychain, much less that the MacBook was
using it.) So I deactivated Keychain on the MacBook, then went 
back to the iMac and deleted that IMAP account and re-created it.
All my mailboxes came up as expected, yay! 

I did have to reimport all of the "On My Mac" mailboxes that
mysteriously got deleted during the Sierra upgrade and ensuing
Mail problems, but that only took a few minutes.

So knock on veneer, I think I'm back in business with Mail. My thanks
to Nelson and JR for their suggestions. I'd seen recommendations in 
the past for troubleshooting Mac problems by logging in as a different 
user, but I'm not sure I'd ever had to do it before. It turned out to 
be very helpful in determining that this problem was user-specific.


Patty

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#102477

On Fri, 17 Mar 2017 02:10:25 -0400, Patty Winter wrote
(in article <oafukh$rok$1@dont-email.me>):

> 
> In article <ej0lsjFm809U3@mid.individual.net>,
> Jolly Roger  <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>> On 2017-03-16, Patty Winter <patty1@wintertime.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I tried deleting my IMAP account, but my only choices were to disable
>>> it or to remove it from all of my computers. I certainly don't want
>>> to do the latter.
>> 
>> But that shouldn't be a problem since you will be adding it again
>> afterwards and the actual messages are stored on the IMAP server, right?
> 
> Right, what could possibly go wrong? :-)
> 
> I just hated to risk anything going wrong on my MacBook, which has
> been behaving well and acting as a guide for what I wanted my iMac
> to do. But I just took the plunge, and everything turned out okay.
> 
> I found a page on Apple's support site about iCloud Keychain,
> which is the program I got that warning from. By following the
> instructions to activate it, I figured out how to deactivate it.
> Under System Preferences --> iCloud, "Keychain" was checked on
> my MacBook Air. (But not on my iMac, which is weird. I don't know
> how my iMac knew about Keychain, much less that the MacBook was
> using it.) So I deactivated Keychain on the MacBook, then went 
> back to the iMac and deleted that IMAP account and re-created it.
> All my mailboxes came up as expected, yay! 
> 
> I did have to reimport all of the "On My Mac" mailboxes that
> mysteriously got deleted during the Sierra upgrade and ensuing
> Mail problems, but that only took a few minutes.
> 
> So knock on veneer, I think I'm back in business with Mail. My thanks
> to Nelson and JR for their suggestions. I'd seen recommendations in 
> the past for troubleshooting Mac problems by logging in as a different 
> user, but I'm not sure I'd ever had to do it before. It turned out to 
> be very helpful in determining that this problem was user-specific.
> 
> 
> Patty
> 

Great news!  I assume you turned iCloud back on when you were done.  
I'd still be curious to know if you had no accounts in the iMac's Mail 
and then turned on iCloud would they be created for you automatically 
to mirror the accounts on the other machines.  Enquiring minds want  to 
know.

-- 
Nelson

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#102496

In article <0001HW.D4F10E6C01BC1001B02919BF@news.astraweb.com>,
Nelson  <nelson@nowhere.com> wrote:

[whole bunch of quoted text deleted]

>Great news!  I assume you turned iCloud back on when you were done.  

I hadn't turned off iCloud entirely, just Keychain. I don't see a
need for it so I haven't turned it back on.


>I'd still be curious to know if you had no accounts in the iMac's Mail 
>and then turned on iCloud would they be created for you automatically 
>to mirror the accounts on the other machines.  Enquiring minds want  to 
>know.

Dunno. :-)


Patty

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#102492

Patty Winter <patty1@wintertime.com> wrote:
> 
> I found a page on Apple's support site about iCloud Keychain,
> which is the program I got that warning from. 

What warning? iCloud Keychain has nothing to do with your mail issue!

> By following the
> instructions to activate it, I figured out how to deactivate it.
> Under System Preferences --> iCloud, "Keychain" was checked on
> my MacBook Air. (But not on my iMac, which is weird. I don't know
> how my iMac knew about Keychain, much less that the MacBook was
> using it.) 

Both were signed into the same Apple account with the feature enabled.
That's how it's supposed to work.

> So I deactivated Keychain on the MacBook, 

There's no reason to do that since it had nothing to do with your issue;
and by turning it off you are making things harder on yourself, because
Safari and other apps won't have access to stored credentials in the
keychain, which means rather than automatically filling in usernames and
passwords, you will now have to type them in manually. Why needlessly do
that to yourself?

> then went 
> back to the iMac and deleted that IMAP account and re-created it.
> All my mailboxes came up as expected, yay! 

Great!

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

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#102495

In article <ej2eakF2dfrU1@mid.individual.net>,
Jolly Roger  <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>Patty Winter <patty1@wintertime.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I found a page on Apple's support site about iCloud Keychain,
>> which is the program I got that warning from. 
>
>What warning? iCloud Keychain has nothing to do with your mail issue!

The warning that said if I removed an Internet account on my iMac,
iCloud Keychain would also remove it from my MacBook.


>> Under System Preferences --> iCloud, "Keychain" was checked on
>> my MacBook Air. (But not on my iMac, which is weird. I don't know
>> how my iMac knew about Keychain, much less that the MacBook was
>> using it.) 
>
>Both were signed into the same Apple account with the feature enabled.
>That's how it's supposed to work.

But I only found Keychain enabled on the MacBook, not on the iMac.


>> So I deactivated Keychain on the MacBook, 
>
>There's no reason to do that since it had nothing to do with your issue;
>and by turning it off you are making things harder on yourself, because
>Safari and other apps won't have access to stored credentials in the
>keychain, which means rather than automatically filling in usernames and
>passwords, you will now have to type them in manually. Why needlessly do
>that to yourself?

Firefox remembers passwords just fine for the sites I want it to do
that for. Some sites I don't allow stored passwords for. I don't use
Safari so have no need for iCloud to store anything for that program.


Patty

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#102497

On 2017-03-17, Patty Winter <patty1@wintertime.com> wrote:
>
> In article <ej2eakF2dfrU1@mid.individual.net>,
> Jolly Roger  <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>>Patty Winter <patty1@wintertime.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I found a page on Apple's support site about iCloud Keychain, which
>>> is the program I got that warning from. 
>>
>>What warning? iCloud Keychain has nothing to do with your mail issue!
>
> The warning that said if I removed an Internet account on my iMac,
> iCloud Keychain would also remove it from my MacBook.

Ah I see the message you are talking about - something like:

Do you want to remove the IMAP account "blah@blah.com" from
all your computers using iCloud Keychain or turn it off on only this
Mac?

It's peculiar that they even mention keychain in that message.

>>> Under System Preferences --> iCloud, "Keychain" was checked on my
>>> MacBook Air. (But not on my iMac, which is weird. I don't know how
>>> my iMac knew about Keychain, much less that the MacBook was using
>>> it.) 
>>
>>Both were signed into the same Apple account with the feature enabled.
>>That's how it's supposed to work.
>
> But I only found Keychain enabled on the MacBook, not on the iMac.

The MacBook was probably the one where you signed into iCloud during the
install (setup assistant), which would have enabled a base set of iCloud
features for you automatically.

>>> So I deactivated Keychain on the MacBook, 
>>
>>There's no reason to do that since it had nothing to do with your
>>issue; and by turning it off you are making things harder on yourself,
>>because Safari and other apps won't have access to stored credentials
>>in the keychain, which means rather than automatically filling in
>>usernames and passwords, you will now have to type them in manually.
>>Why needlessly do that to yourself?
>
> Firefox remembers passwords just fine for the sites I want it to do
> that for.

That's not the same thing at all. Both Safai and Firefox have the
ability to store credentials *locally*. What iCloud Keychain does is
place your remembered credentials securely in the cloud, such that they
are shared with all of your Apple devices. So you can sign into a web
site on your Mac, walk away, and log into the site with your iPad
without having to enter any credentials. Also, other apps on your iPad
can also get their credentials from iCloud Keychain. So it's a huge
productivity booster.

> Some sites I don't allow stored passwords for. I don't use Safari so
> have no need for iCloud to store anything for that program.

You don't use Safari on your iOS devices? And surely there are other
apps that could benefit from accessing credentials in the keychain. I
don't think you realize what you are missing.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

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#102510

In article <ej2ksbF3icgU1@mid.individual.net>,
Jolly Roger  <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>On 2017-03-17, Patty Winter <patty1@wintertime.com> wrote:
>> In article <ej2eakF2dfrU1@mid.individual.net>,
>> Jolly Roger  <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>What warning? iCloud Keychain has nothing to do with your mail issue!
>>
>> The warning that said if I removed an Internet account on my iMac,
>> iCloud Keychain would also remove it from my MacBook.
>
>Ah I see the message you are talking about - something like:
>
>Do you want to remove the IMAP account "blah@blah.com" from
>all your computers using iCloud Keychain or turn it off on only this
>Mac?

Yep. And below that, it specifically mentioned that it would remove
the account from both the machine I was on and my MacBook.

While it's true that Keychain had nothing directly to do with my Mail
issue--which was apparently some sort of corrupted information in my
user settings for Internet accounts--that warning concerned me because 
all was going well on my MacBook and I didn't want to risk that changing
by removing my Internet account from the MacBook as well.


>It's peculiar that they even mention keychain in that message.

Even stranger now that I turned off iClouc Keychain on my MacBook yet
I still get that warning if I try to delete an Internet account.


>The MacBook was probably the one where you signed into iCloud during the
>install (setup assistant), which would have enabled a base set of iCloud
>features for you automatically.

Ah, yes, that could explain how iCloud Keychain got enabled on the MacBook.


>> Firefox remembers passwords just fine for the sites I want it to do
>> that for.
>
>That's not the same thing at all. Both Safai and Firefox have the
>ability to store credentials *locally*. What iCloud Keychain does is
>place your remembered credentials securely in the cloud, such that they
>are shared with all of your Apple devices. 

Yes, I understand that. But once I only have two computers, so once I
log in to a website on both of them, that's that. (I don't often need
to log in to anything on the iPhone or iPad.)


>So you can sign into a web
>site on your Mac, walk away, and log into the site with your iPad
>without having to enter any credentials. Also, other apps on your iPad
>can also get their credentials from iCloud Keychain. So it's a huge
>productivity booster.

What kind of credentials could a different app get? Apple's page about 
that feature says, "iCloud Keychain keeps your Safari website usernames 
and passwords, credit card information, and Wi-Fi network information 
up to date across all of your approved devices."

My user names and passwords are different for different websites, I
rarely use the same credit-card number more than once for online 
purchases, and my iPhone and iPad reconnect to known Wi-Fi networks
just fine. 


>> Some sites I don't allow stored passwords for. I don't use Safari so
>> have no need for iCloud to store anything for that program.
>
>You don't use Safari on your iOS devices? And surely there are other
>apps that could benefit from accessing credentials in the keychain. I
>don't think you realize what you are missing.

I use Safari when I need to access a website on my iPhone or iPad, but
that's rarely one that needs any sort of login. What credentials other
than login information are you referring to? I suspect that you may get
more benefit from iCloud Keychain because you have more devices than I
do and you use them in more places. 90-95% of my computer/mobile device
usage is in my own home.


Patty

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#102513

On 2017-03-17, Patty Winter <patty1@wintertime.com> wrote:
> In article <ej2ksbF3icgU1@mid.individual.net>,
> Jolly Roger  <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>>
>>Ah I see the message you are talking about - something like:
>>
>>Do you want to remove the IMAP account "blah@blah.com" from all your
>>computers using iCloud Keychain or turn it off on only this Mac?
>
> Yep. And below that, it specifically mentioned that it would remove
> the account from both the machine I was on and my MacBook.

IIRC, there are two buttons (besides Cancel) in that dialog box, one of
which deletes it only from the current machine, while the other deletes
it everywhere.

> While it's true that Keychain had nothing directly to do with my Mail
> issue--which was apparently some sort of corrupted information in my
> user settings for Internet accounts--that warning concerned me because
> all was going well on my MacBook and I didn't want to risk that
> changing by removing my Internet account from the MacBook as well.
>
>>It's peculiar that they even mention keychain in that message.
>
> Even stranger now that I turned off iClouc Keychain on my MacBook yet
> I still get that warning if I try to delete an Internet account.

Yeah. It's really just an iCloud feature - not keychain specific.

>>> Firefox remembers passwords just fine for the sites I want it to do
>>> that for.
>>
>>That's not the same thing at all. Both Safai and Firefox have the
>>ability to store credentials *locally*. What iCloud Keychain does is
>>place your remembered credentials securely in the cloud, such that
>>they are shared with all of your Apple devices. 
>
> Yes, I understand that. But once I only have two computers, so once I
> log in to a website on both of them, that's that. (I don't often need
> to log in to anything on the iPhone or iPad.)

Well if that usage pattern ever changes, you'd benefit from enabling the
feature.

>>So you can sign into a web site on your Mac, walk away, and log into
>>the site with your iPad without having to enter any credentials. Also,
>>other apps on your iPad can also get their credentials from iCloud
>>Keychain. So it's a huge productivity booster.
>
> What kind of credentials could a different app get? Apple's page about
> that feature says, "iCloud Keychain keeps your Safari website
> usernames and passwords, credit card information, and Wi-Fi network
> information up to date across all of your approved devices."
>
> My user names and passwords are different for different websites

Same here, and there are far too many for me to bother keeping in my
head. With iCloud Keychain enabled I don't have to remember or type them
manually on each device I own. Also, various apps that I use benefit
from it, because I don't have to manually type in credentials in those
apps. For instance, the Amazon app pulls credentials from the keychain
so you don't have to type them in manually:

<https://i.imgur.com/7LpTc6E.png>

> I rarely use the same credit-card number more than once for online
> purchases

You mean you generate a new number for each purchase you make? Even to
the same store? That sounds like more trouble than it's worth to me. I
used to use Discover's temporary numbers feature to generate a different
number for select online stores; but it was a pain and didn't really
offer any additional security. They eventually discontinued the service
stating as much.

> and my iPhone and iPad reconnect to known Wi-Fi networks just fine. 

I think they are just saying that you wouldn't have to type in the
password the first time a new device joins a network that other devices
have joined.

>>> Some sites I don't allow stored passwords for. I don't use Safari so
>>> have no need for iCloud to store anything for that program.
>>
>>You don't use Safari on your iOS devices? And surely there are other
>>apps that could benefit from accessing credentials in the keychain. I
>>don't think you realize what you are missing.
>
> I use Safari when I need to access a website on my iPhone or iPad, but
> that's rarely one that needs any sort of login.

You must not make a lot of online purchases, or log into your bank(s)
websites, and so on.

> What credentials other than login information are you referring to?

Mainly just the login credentials.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

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