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Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro

From Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com>
Newsgroups comp.std.c
Subject Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro
Date 2021-11-16 19:00 -0800
Organization None to speak of
Message-ID <87pmqzv64t.fsf@nosuchdomain.example.com> (permalink)
References (9 earlier) <86v90t8l6j.fsf@linuxsc.com> <20211115233426$5e8a@zira.vinc17.org> <smuvs5$6qh$1@dont-email.me> <20211116011941$1337@zira.vinc17.org> <sn0gjr$vpv$1@dont-email.me>

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James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> writes:
> On 11/15/21 8:28 PM, Vincent Lefevre wrote:
>> In article <smuvs5$6qh$1@dont-email.me>,
>>   James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
[...]
>>> "If a "shall" or "shall not" requirement that appears outside of a
>>> constraint or runtime-constraint is violated, the behavior is undefined.
>>> Undefined behavior is otherwise indicated in this document by the words
>>> "undefined behavior" or by the omission of any explicit definition of
>>> behavior. There is no difference in emphasis among these three; they all
>>> describe "behavior that is undefined"." (4p2).
>> 
>> Omission of any explicit definition of behavior.
>
> The fact that a constraint is violated does not erase the definition
> provided by 6.4.4.2p4, or render it any less applicable.

I suggest that that may be an open question.

>> ... There is a constraint
>> (restriction) that is not satisfied.
>
> Agreed.
>
>> ... Thus the code becomes invalid and
>> nothing gets defined as a consequence.
>
> This is, I presume, what makes you think that 6.4.4.2p4 is effectively
> erased?
>
> The standard says nothing to that effect. The only meaningful thing it
> says is that a diagnostic is required (5.1.1.3p1). I do not consider the
> standard's definition of "constraint" to be meaningful: "restriction,
> either syntactic or semantic, by which the exposition of language
> elements is to be interpreted" (3.8). What that sentence means,if
> anything, is not at all clear, but one thing is clear -  it says nothing
> about what should happen if the restriction is violated. 5.1.1.3p1 is
> the only clause that says anything about that issue.
> Note: the requirement specified in 5.1.1.3p1 would also be erased, if a
> constraint violation is considered to effectively erase unspecified
> parts of the rest of the standard. Surely you don't claim that 3.8
> specifies which parts get erased?

The standard's definition of "constraint" is uncomfortably vague -- but
that doesn't mean I'm comfortable ignoring it.

Given the definition of a "constraint" as a "restriction, either
syntactic or semantic, by which the exposition of language elements is
to be interpreted", it seems to me to be at least plausible that when a
constraint is violated, the "exposition of language elements" cannot be
interpreted.

The implication would be that any program that violates a constraint has
undefined behavior (assuming it survives translation).  And yes, I'm
proposing that violating any single constraint makes most of the rest of
the standard moot.

I'm not saying that this is the only way to interpret that wording.
It's vague enough to permit a number of reasonable readings.  But I
don't think we can just ignore it.

I'd like to see a future standard settle this one way or the other.

-- 
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com
Working, but not speaking, for Philips
void Void(void) { Void(); } /* The recursive call of the void */

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contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-09-30 01:47 +0000
  Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-09-29 19:05 -0700
    Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-09-30 11:24 +0000
      Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-09-30 08:38 -0700
        Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-10-01 09:05 +0000
          Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-01 12:20 -0700
            Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-10-04 09:26 +0000
              Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-04 10:34 -0700
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Geoff Clare <geoff@clare.See-My-Signature.invalid> - 2021-10-05 13:53 +0100
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-10-06 00:12 +0000
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-10-07 07:05 -0700
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-07 07:51 -0700
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-08 11:41 -0700
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-10-09 19:49 +0000
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-09 14:28 -0700
          Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Jakob Bohm <jb-usenet@wisemo.com.invalid> - 2021-10-01 22:55 +0200
            Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-01 14:26 -0700
          Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-10-08 08:30 -0700
            Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-08 11:40 -0700
              Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-12-17 21:00 -0800
            Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-10-09 20:05 +0000
              Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-10-11 12:40 -0400
              Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-12-17 21:02 -0800
      Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-10-08 00:02 -0700
        Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-10-09 20:17 +0000
          Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-10-11 12:40 -0400
            Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-11 12:39 -0700
              Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-10-11 21:04 -0400
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-11 18:33 -0700
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-01-03 12:03 -0800
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2022-01-03 16:45 -0500
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-01-03 14:36 -0800
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2022-01-04 02:10 -0500
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-01-17 10:09 -0800
              Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-01-03 11:55 -0800
            Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-10-26 10:01 +0000
              Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-10-26 12:53 -0400
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-10-28 09:38 +0000
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-10-28 11:23 -0400
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-10-29 12:12 +0000
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-10-30 02:08 -0400
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-11-08 02:44 +0000
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-11-08 01:46 -0500
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-11-08 10:56 +0000
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-11-08 13:50 -0500
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-11-09 02:48 +0000
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-11-09 00:50 -0500
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-11-09 10:12 +0000
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-11-09 12:51 -0500
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-11-10 12:48 +0000
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-11-10 12:03 -0500
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-11-12 23:17 +0000
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-11-12 21:03 -0500
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-11-15 09:18 +0000
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-11-15 14:25 -0500
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-11-16 01:17 +0000
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-11-16 10:29 -0500
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-12-08 10:09 +0000
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Derek Jones <derek@NOSPAM-knosof.co.uk> - 2021-11-16 11:32 +0000
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-11-16 10:35 -0500
          Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-11-09 07:13 -0800
            Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-11-10 13:16 +0000
              Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-11-10 08:02 -0800
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-11-10 15:01 -0800
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-11-13 00:30 +0000
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2021-12-02 22:14 +0000
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-01-03 12:48 -0800
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-11-12 23:55 +0000
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-11-15 07:59 -0800
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-11-15 23:39 +0000
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-11-15 20:00 -0500
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-11-16 01:28 +0000
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-11-16 01:57 +0000
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-11-16 09:52 -0500
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-11-16 19:00 -0800
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-12-08 10:56 +0000
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-01-03 12:56 -0800
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2022-01-03 22:45 -0800
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-01-17 05:35 -0800
  Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-09-30 03:20 +0100

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