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Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro

From Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com>
Newsgroups comp.std.c
Subject Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro
Date 2022-01-03 12:56 -0800
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <86fsq4y1vw.fsf@linuxsc.com> (permalink)
References (10 earlier) <20211115233426$5e8a@zira.vinc17.org> <smuvs5$6qh$1@dont-email.me> <20211116011941$1337@zira.vinc17.org> <sn0gjr$vpv$1@dont-email.me> <87pmqzv64t.fsf@nosuchdomain.example.com>

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Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> writes:

> James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> writes:
>
>> On 11/15/21 8:28 PM, Vincent Lefevre wrote:
>>
>>> In article <smuvs5$6qh$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>   James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>>>> "If a "shall" or "shall not" requirement that appears outside of
>>>> a constraint or runtime-constraint is violated, the behavior is
>>>> undefined.  Undefined behavior is otherwise indicated in this
>>>> document by the words "undefined behavior" or by the omission of
>>>> any explicit definition of behavior.  There is no difference in
>>>> emphasis among these three;  they all describe "behavior that is
>>>> undefined"."  (4p2).
>>>
>>> Omission of any explicit definition of behavior.
>>
>> The fact that a constraint is violated does not erase the
>> definition provided by 6.4.4.2p4, or render it any less applicable.
>
> I suggest that that may be an open question.
>
>>> ... There is a constraint
>>> (restriction) that is not satisfied.
>>
>> Agreed.
>>
>>> ... Thus the code becomes invalid and
>>> nothing gets defined as a consequence.
>>
>> This is, I presume, what makes you think that 6.4.4.2p4 is
>> effectively erased?
>>
>> The standard says nothing to that effect.  The only meaningful
>> thing it says is that a diagnostic is required (5.1.1.3p1).  I do
>> not consider the standard's definition of "constraint" to be
>> meaningful:  "restriction, either syntactic or semantic, by which
>> the exposition of language elements is to be interpreted" (3.8).

(Incidental remark:  the problem is not that the definition of
constraint is meaningless;  the problem is that the meaning
of the definition is ambiguous and subjective (but that's not
the same as meaningless (or "not meaningful")).)

>> What that sentence means,if anything, is not at all clear, but one
>> thing is clear - it says nothing about what should happen if the
>> restriction is violated.  5.1.1.3p1 is the only clause that says
>> anything about that issue.  Note: the requirement specified in
>> 5.1.1.3p1 would also be erased, if a constraint violation is
>> considered to effectively erase unspecified parts of the rest of
>> the standard.  Surely you don't claim that 3.8 specifies which
>> parts get erased?
>
> The standard's definition of "constraint" is uncomfortably vague
> -- but that doesn't mean I'm comfortable ignoring it.
>
> Given the definition of a "constraint" as a "restriction, either
> syntactic or semantic, by which the exposition of language
> elements is to be interpreted", it seems to me to be at least
> plausible that when a constraint is violated, the "exposition of
> language elements" cannot be interpreted.
>
> The implication would be that any program that violates a constraint
> has undefined behavior (assuming it survives translation).  And yes,
> I'm proposing that violating any single constraint makes most of the
> rest of the standard moot.
>
> I'm not saying that this is the only way to interpret that wording.
> It's vague enough to permit a number of reasonable readings.  [...]

So you're saying that the meaning of the definition of constraint
is to some extent subjective, ie, reader dependent?

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Thread

contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-09-30 01:47 +0000
  Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-09-29 19:05 -0700
    Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-09-30 11:24 +0000
      Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-09-30 08:38 -0700
        Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-10-01 09:05 +0000
          Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-01 12:20 -0700
            Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-10-04 09:26 +0000
              Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-04 10:34 -0700
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Geoff Clare <geoff@clare.See-My-Signature.invalid> - 2021-10-05 13:53 +0100
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-10-06 00:12 +0000
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-10-07 07:05 -0700
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-07 07:51 -0700
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-08 11:41 -0700
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-10-09 19:49 +0000
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-09 14:28 -0700
          Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Jakob Bohm <jb-usenet@wisemo.com.invalid> - 2021-10-01 22:55 +0200
            Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-01 14:26 -0700
          Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-10-08 08:30 -0700
            Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-08 11:40 -0700
              Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-12-17 21:00 -0800
            Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-10-09 20:05 +0000
              Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-10-11 12:40 -0400
              Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-12-17 21:02 -0800
      Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-10-08 00:02 -0700
        Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-10-09 20:17 +0000
          Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-10-11 12:40 -0400
            Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-11 12:39 -0700
              Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-10-11 21:04 -0400
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-11 18:33 -0700
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-01-03 12:03 -0800
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2022-01-03 16:45 -0500
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-01-03 14:36 -0800
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2022-01-04 02:10 -0500
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-01-17 10:09 -0800
              Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-01-03 11:55 -0800
            Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-10-26 10:01 +0000
              Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-10-26 12:53 -0400
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-10-28 09:38 +0000
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-10-28 11:23 -0400
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-10-29 12:12 +0000
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-10-30 02:08 -0400
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-11-08 02:44 +0000
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-11-08 01:46 -0500
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-11-08 10:56 +0000
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-11-08 13:50 -0500
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-11-09 02:48 +0000
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-11-09 00:50 -0500
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-11-09 10:12 +0000
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-11-09 12:51 -0500
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-11-10 12:48 +0000
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-11-10 12:03 -0500
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-11-12 23:17 +0000
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-11-12 21:03 -0500
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-11-15 09:18 +0000
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-11-15 14:25 -0500
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-11-16 01:17 +0000
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-11-16 10:29 -0500
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-12-08 10:09 +0000
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Derek Jones <derek@NOSPAM-knosof.co.uk> - 2021-11-16 11:32 +0000
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-11-16 10:35 -0500
          Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-11-09 07:13 -0800
            Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-11-10 13:16 +0000
              Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-11-10 08:02 -0800
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-11-10 15:01 -0800
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-11-13 00:30 +0000
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2021-12-02 22:14 +0000
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-01-03 12:48 -0800
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-11-12 23:55 +0000
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-11-15 07:59 -0800
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-11-15 23:39 +0000
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-11-15 20:00 -0500
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-11-16 01:28 +0000
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-11-16 01:57 +0000
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-11-16 09:52 -0500
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-11-16 19:00 -0800
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-12-08 10:56 +0000
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-01-03 12:56 -0800
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2022-01-03 22:45 -0800
                Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-01-17 05:35 -0800
  Re: contradiction about the INFINITY macro Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-09-30 03:20 +0100

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