Re: And so? (VMS/XDE)

From	cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross)
Newsgroups	comp.os.vms
Subject	Re: And so? (VMS/XDE)
Date	2025-12-02 13:50 +0000
Organization	PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC
Message-ID	<10gmqrs$ibp$1@reader2.panix.com> (permalink)
References	<mmenp7F4bqiU1@mid.individual.net> <10gg48s$3srom$1@dont-email.me> <10gk5mn$kst$1@reader2.panix.com> <10gle2k$1q97g$1@dont-email.me>

Show all headers | View raw

In article <10gle2k$1q97g$1@dont-email.me>,
Arne Vajhøj  <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>On 12/1/2025 8:37 AM, Dan Cross wrote:
>> I've long suspected (but I admit I have no evidence to support
>> this) that one of the reasons there is so much COBOL code in the
>> world is because, when making non-trivial changes, programmers
>> first _copy_ large sections of the program and then modify the
>> copy, to avoid introducing bugs into existing functionality.
>
>Copying and modifying code instead of creating reusable libraries
>has been used by bad programmers in all languages.

I think it's a little deeper than that.

>But last century then Cobol and Basic were the two easiest
>languages to learn and Cobol was one of the languages with
>most jobs. So it seems likely that a large number of bad
>programmers picked Cobol. Bringing bad habits with them.
>
>Today I would expect that crowd to pick client side JavaScript
>and server side PHP.
>
>There is also something in the Cobol language.
>
>Large files with one data division, lots of paragraphs
>and lots of perform's is easy to code, but it is also
>bad for reusable code.
>
>It is sort of the same as having large C or Pascal files
>with all variables global and all functions/procedures
>without arguments.
>
>It is possible to do it right, but when people have
>to chose between the easy way and the right way, then ...

An issue with COBOL is that, given procedures A, B, ..., Z,
written sequentially in source, `PERFORM A THRU Z` means that it
is difficult to see when procedures B, C, ..., Y are called just
through visual inspection since calls to them are implicit; you
really need semantically aware tools to do that.  So if you need
to change paragraph D, then you run the risk of implicitly
changing dependent behavior in your system unintentionally.  You
might end up violating some assumption you didn't even know
existed; talk about spooky action at a distance.

Most COBOL programs were written before the era of automated,
unit-level testing, so it's extremely unlikely you've got a big
suite of tests you can run to attempt to catch such issues.

I imagine that a this results in a lot of (unnecessary)
duplication.

I have written about this many times.

	- Dan C.

Back to comp.os.vms | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar

Thread

And so? (VMS/XDE) gcalliet <gerard.calliet@pia-sofer.fr> - 2025-10-29 15:48 +0100
  Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Chris Townley <news@cct-net.co.uk> - 2025-10-29 15:19 +0000
    Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-10-29 19:03 -0400
      Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Chris Townley <news@cct-net.co.uk> - 2025-10-29 23:16 +0000
        Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-10-29 19:25 -0400
          Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-10-30 11:30 +0000
  Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) - 2025-10-29 16:13 +0000
    Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2025-10-29 18:48 +0000
      Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-10-29 15:52 -0400
        Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Chris Townley <news@cct-net.co.uk> - 2025-10-29 21:45 +0000
      Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-10-29 15:59 -0400
      Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) gcalliet <gerard.calliet@pia-sofer.fr> - 2025-10-30 09:19 +0100
        Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2025-10-30 13:12 +0000
          Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) gcalliet <gerard.calliet@pia-sofer.fr> - 2025-10-30 20:05 +0100
          Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-10-30 15:59 -0400
            Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-30 22:28 +0000
            Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2025-11-03 13:31 +0000
              Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-03 15:18 -0500
              Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-03 15:28 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2025-11-04 13:59 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Subcommandante XDelta <vlf@star.enet.dec.com> - 2025-11-05 07:57 +1100
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2025-11-05 13:25 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) bill <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> - 2025-11-06 08:44 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) gcalliet <gerard.calliet@pia-sofer.fr> - 2025-11-20 13:05 +0100
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-04 19:34 -0500
              Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-11-07 14:01 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2025-11-10 14:12 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) bill <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> - 2025-11-10 10:19 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-10 15:43 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-11-11 15:23 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-11 20:59 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-11 19:57 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-11 20:02 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-12 03:51 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Chris Townley <news@cct-net.co.uk> - 2025-11-12 01:50 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-11 21:00 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-12 03:48 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-12 15:12 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-12 21:01 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-12 16:06 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-14 23:35 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-11-15 00:24 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-15 02:41 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-14 22:18 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-15 06:00 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-15 09:22 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-15 22:16 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-15 18:12 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-18 07:25 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-18 09:19 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-20 23:07 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-20 19:41 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-20 19:55 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-21 19:09 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2025-11-15 12:15 +0100
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-15 08:27 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2025-11-29 19:49 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-11-30 05:44 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-30 06:33 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-30 14:21 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-30 14:23 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-30 16:04 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-30 16:09 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-30 16:11 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Chris Townley <news@cct-net.co.uk> - 2025-11-30 21:49 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-11-30 22:18 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-14 01:37 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-30 17:44 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-12-01 13:37 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-01 16:02 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-12-01 21:26 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) bill <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 17:46 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-01 18:50 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) bill <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 20:23 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-01 20:44 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-01 20:55 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) bill <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 22:05 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-01 22:18 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-12-02 12:59 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-01 20:06 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-01 20:14 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) bill <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 20:15 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-01 20:31 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) bill <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 21:39 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-01 22:03 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-12-02 13:50 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-02 10:25 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-12-02 15:46 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-02 10:57 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-12-02 19:03 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2025-12-01 13:49 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-12-01 18:59 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2025-12-01 19:58 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-12-02 15:42 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2025-12-03 14:07 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2025-12-09 00:19 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-12-10 18:38 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-12-01 21:23 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) bill <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 17:50 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-12-02 13:56 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2025-12-08 23:57 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-10 15:35 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-10 15:37 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-11-11 14:47 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-11 20:54 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-11-12 17:04 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2025-11-13 13:42 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-11-16 02:00 +0000
              Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-11 10:50 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-11 20:57 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-11 18:56 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-12 03:56 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-11-12 13:43 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-12 14:54 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-12 21:02 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-12 16:10 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-14 05:47 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-14 16:49 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-18 07:29 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-18 13:52 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-20 23:09 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-20 19:31 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-21 01:32 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-20 19:36 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> - 2025-11-12 21:43 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-12 16:57 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-13 02:45 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> - 2025-11-13 10:36 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-13 16:13 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-14 23:39 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-14 16:58 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-17 21:19 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-18 06:47 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) "Niels S. Eliasen" <nse@eliasen.co> - 2025-12-19 11:16 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-19 08:07 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-19 08:53 -0500
        Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-10-30 15:52 -0400
          Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-30 22:26 +0000
            Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) jgd@cix.co.uk (John Dallman) - 2025-11-01 16:40 +0000
              Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-01 13:04 -0400
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-01 20:18 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) jgd@cix.co.uk (John Dallman) - 2025-11-04 22:17 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-04 22:25 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-04 19:13 -0500
              Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-01 20:14 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-01 20:02 -0400
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-02 01:34 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-01 21:44 -0400
            Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-01 17:44 -0400
              Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-01 22:13 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-01 20:14 -0400
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-02 01:30 +0000
        Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-30 22:29 +0000

csiph-web