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Re: And so? (VMS/XDE)

From cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross)
Newsgroups comp.os.vms
Subject Re: And so? (VMS/XDE)
Date 2025-12-02 19:03 +0000
Organization PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC
Message-ID <10gnd5j$dih$1@reader2.panix.com> (permalink)
References <mmenp7F4bqiU1@mid.individual.net> <10gn0cq$2d8ve$1@dont-email.me> <10gn1kh$6o0$2@reader2.panix.com> <10gn29j$2d8ve$2@dont-email.me>

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In article <10gn29j$2d8ve$2@dont-email.me>,
Arne Vajhøj  <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>On 12/2/2025 10:46 AM, Dan Cross wrote:
>> In article <10gn0cq$2d8ve$1@dont-email.me>,
>> Arne Vajhøj  <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>>> On 12/2/2025 8:50 AM, Dan Cross wrote:
>>>> An issue with COBOL is that, given procedures A, B, ..., Z,
>>>> written sequentially in source, `PERFORM A THRU Z` means that it
>>>> is difficult to see when procedures B, C, ..., Y are called just
>>>> through visual inspection since calls to them are implicit; you
>>>> really need semantically aware tools to do that.  So if you need
>>>> to change paragraph D, then you run the risk of implicitly
>>>> changing dependent behavior in your system unintentionally.  You
>>>> might end up violating some assumption you didn't even know
>>>> existed; talk about spooky action at a distance.
>>>
>>> That is a classical argument found on the internet.
>> 
>> Yes.  I myself have been making it for years.
>> 
>>> But I am not convinced that it is critical.
>>>
>>> It is all within one file.
>>>
>>> $ search foobar.cob thru,through
>>>
>>> should reveal if the feature is used.
>>>
>>> Unless the file is very long and the code is very ugly, then
>>> I believe it should be relative easy possible to track the
>>> perform flow even in VT mode EDT or EVE.
>> 
>> I'm not at all convinced of that in a large code base; call
>> graphs resulting in such `PERFORM`s can be too big to trace by
>> hand.  And many of these extant COBOL applications are quite
>> large, indeed.
>
>There are lots of hundreds of thousands or millions of lines of
>code applications.
>
>But hopefully not as single file.

I don't see how that's relevant.  If a call comes from outside
of a file that results in that PERFORM, you've still got the
same problem.  The point is, some very distant part of the
system may be relying on that implicit behavior.  You really
have no way to tell.

	- Dan C.

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Thread

And so? (VMS/XDE) gcalliet <gerard.calliet@pia-sofer.fr> - 2025-10-29 15:48 +0100
  Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Chris Townley <news@cct-net.co.uk> - 2025-10-29 15:19 +0000
    Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-10-29 19:03 -0400
      Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Chris Townley <news@cct-net.co.uk> - 2025-10-29 23:16 +0000
        Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-10-29 19:25 -0400
          Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-10-30 11:30 +0000
  Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) - 2025-10-29 16:13 +0000
    Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2025-10-29 18:48 +0000
      Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-10-29 15:52 -0400
        Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Chris Townley <news@cct-net.co.uk> - 2025-10-29 21:45 +0000
      Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-10-29 15:59 -0400
      Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) gcalliet <gerard.calliet@pia-sofer.fr> - 2025-10-30 09:19 +0100
        Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2025-10-30 13:12 +0000
          Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) gcalliet <gerard.calliet@pia-sofer.fr> - 2025-10-30 20:05 +0100
          Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-10-30 15:59 -0400
            Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-30 22:28 +0000
            Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2025-11-03 13:31 +0000
              Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-03 15:18 -0500
              Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-03 15:28 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2025-11-04 13:59 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Subcommandante XDelta <vlf@star.enet.dec.com> - 2025-11-05 07:57 +1100
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2025-11-05 13:25 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) bill <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> - 2025-11-06 08:44 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) gcalliet <gerard.calliet@pia-sofer.fr> - 2025-11-20 13:05 +0100
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-04 19:34 -0500
              Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-11-07 14:01 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2025-11-10 14:12 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) bill <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> - 2025-11-10 10:19 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-10 15:43 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-11-11 15:23 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-11 20:59 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-11 19:57 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-11 20:02 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-12 03:51 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Chris Townley <news@cct-net.co.uk> - 2025-11-12 01:50 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-11 21:00 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-12 03:48 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-12 15:12 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-12 21:01 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-12 16:06 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-14 23:35 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-11-15 00:24 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-15 02:41 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-14 22:18 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-15 06:00 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-15 09:22 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-15 22:16 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-15 18:12 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-18 07:25 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-18 09:19 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-20 23:07 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-20 19:41 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-20 19:55 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-21 19:09 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2025-11-15 12:15 +0100
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-15 08:27 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2025-11-29 19:49 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-11-30 05:44 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-30 06:33 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-30 14:21 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-30 14:23 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-30 16:04 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-30 16:09 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-30 16:11 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Chris Townley <news@cct-net.co.uk> - 2025-11-30 21:49 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-11-30 22:18 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-14 01:37 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-30 17:44 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-12-01 13:37 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-01 16:02 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-12-01 21:26 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) bill <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 17:46 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-01 18:50 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) bill <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 20:23 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-01 20:44 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-01 20:55 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) bill <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 22:05 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-01 22:18 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-12-02 12:59 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-01 20:06 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-01 20:14 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) bill <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 20:15 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-01 20:31 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) bill <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 21:39 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-01 22:03 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-12-02 13:50 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-02 10:25 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-12-02 15:46 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-02 10:57 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-12-02 19:03 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2025-12-01 13:49 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-12-01 18:59 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2025-12-01 19:58 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-12-02 15:42 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2025-12-03 14:07 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2025-12-09 00:19 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-12-10 18:38 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-12-01 21:23 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) bill <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 17:50 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-12-02 13:56 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2025-12-08 23:57 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-10 15:35 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-10 15:37 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-11-11 14:47 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-11 20:54 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-11-12 17:04 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2025-11-13 13:42 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-11-16 02:00 +0000
              Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-11 10:50 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-11 20:57 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-11 18:56 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-12 03:56 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-11-12 13:43 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-12 14:54 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-12 21:02 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-12 16:10 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-14 05:47 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-14 16:49 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-18 07:29 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-18 13:52 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-20 23:09 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-20 19:31 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-21 01:32 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-20 19:36 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> - 2025-11-12 21:43 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-12 16:57 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-13 02:45 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> - 2025-11-13 10:36 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-13 16:13 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-14 23:39 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-14 16:58 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-17 21:19 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-18 06:47 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) "Niels S. Eliasen" <nse@eliasen.co> - 2025-12-19 11:16 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-19 08:07 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-19 08:53 -0500
        Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-10-30 15:52 -0400
          Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-30 22:26 +0000
            Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) jgd@cix.co.uk (John Dallman) - 2025-11-01 16:40 +0000
              Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-01 13:04 -0400
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-01 20:18 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) jgd@cix.co.uk (John Dallman) - 2025-11-04 22:17 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-04 22:25 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-04 19:13 -0500
              Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-01 20:14 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-01 20:02 -0400
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-02 01:34 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-01 21:44 -0400
            Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-01 17:44 -0400
              Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-01 22:13 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-01 20:14 -0400
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-02 01:30 +0000
        Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-30 22:29 +0000

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